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> Tel Aviv, Israel, Real life is starting to catch up
Emrak
post Apr 30 2012, 04:18 AM
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QUOTE (Mirilion @ Apr 29 2012, 03:09 AM) *
Israeli society will react pretty extremly to the awakening. If magic returns and the religious practices of the orthodox become real power, it would mean the religious establishment becomes much stronger. As Israel is in a pretty real danger of becoming a full theocracy even today, I can see this pushing it over the edge, thus turning Israel into a place that I wouldn't want to run a campaign in because of personal issues with this idea.
I'd rather say that a limited number of kaballah practitioners are seduced by offers from the Tel Aviv municipality, thus golem police, and leave it at that. According to this theory daily practices of Judaism and Islam hold no power.

That other thing could happen. However, seeing that official Shadowrun has so little to say about Israel, I'm most likely to develop my own timeline that makes more sense to me.


In a D&D campaign I ran once, I had the PCs venture into a vast desert landscape littered with ruins. As they slowly discovered, this wasn't a desert with the ruins of many city-states, this was the ruins of a vast, ancient megalopolis. Long story short: too much magic, yada yada, battles, yada yada, lotta curses flying about, yada yada.

You could do something similar with the Middle East. Aka, so many extremists on all sides suddenly having access to magic = magical Armageddon. Jerusalem, Bethlehem, Tel Aviv, Baghdad, Mecca, all virtually destroyed. Wipe the slate clean. Perhaps all the magical warfare warped Ley Lines and created etheric vortexes.

In the aftermath, corps moved in to harvest/research magically potent sources of energy, converting it into standard electricity and beaming it around the planet via microwave beams and satellites (this is a real design for energy transmission btw). The mid-east would be the new energy oven of the planet, but instead of oil, it's ethereal rifts. Insert a new megalopolis or two, perhaps built on the ruins of an older city and bada bing!
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Raiki
post Apr 30 2012, 04:30 AM
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QUOTE (Emrak @ Apr 30 2012, 12:18 AM) *
In a D&D campaign I ran once, I had the PCs venture into a vast desert landscape littered with ruins. As they slowly discovered, this wasn't a desert with the ruins of many city-states, this was the ruins of a vast, ancient megalopolis. Long story short: too much magic, yada yada, battles, yada yada, lotta curses flying about, yada yada.

You could do something similar with the Middle East. Aka, so many extremists on all sides suddenly having access to magic = magical Armageddon. Jerusalem, Bethlehem, Tel Aviv, Baghdad, Mecca, all virtually destroyed. Wipe the slate clean. Perhaps all the magical warfare warped Ley Lines and created etheric vortexes.


Honestly, given the deeply invested emotions and superstitions inherent to this area(y'know, the very reasons we have to walk on eggshells to talk about it here) this is pretty much the only possible outcome.

Power+Passion-Belief in Consequences=Destruction.

~R~
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Mirilion
post Apr 30 2012, 05:14 AM
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QUOTE (Raiki @ Apr 30 2012, 05:30 AM) *
Honestly, given the deeply invested emotions and superstitions inherent to this area(y'know, the very reasons we have to walk on eggshells to talk about it here) this is pretty much the only possible outcome.

Power+Passion-Belief in Consequences=Destruction.

~R~


Logically I know this is a probable outcome, but I don't really want everything here destroyed, and I think Israel turning into a total corporate dystopia is much more likely anyway. The media is wildly exaggerating things for the ratings, you know. They like to put tags on issues and then spin them into a hurricane, especially if it fits the agendas of our media tycoons. I can say more but no rage.
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Raiki
post Apr 30 2012, 05:28 AM
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QUOTE (Mirilion @ Apr 30 2012, 01:14 AM) *
Logically I know this is a probable outcome, but I don't really want everything here destroyed, and I think Israel turning into a total corporate dystopia is much more likely anyway. The media is wildly exaggerating things for the ratings, you know. They like to put tags on issues and then spin them into a hurricane, especially if it fits the agendas of our media tycoons. I can say more but no rage.



Yeah, I have more I'd like to say too, but...y'know.

Anyway, it's your game and by no means should you feel obligated to have it be constrained by any form of reality, imagined or otherwise. If I recall correctly, most of us play these games because we find quite a bit of reality to be pretty lame anyway. So frag the "probable outcome" and have Israel be a haven for gigantic awakened spider-shifters...just don't ever bring them to my table.


~R~
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Emrak
post Apr 30 2012, 06:02 AM
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QUOTE (Mirilion @ Apr 30 2012, 01:14 AM) *
Logically I know this is a probable outcome, but I don't really want everything here destroyed, and I think Israel turning into a total corporate dystopia is much more likely anyway. The media is wildly exaggerating things for the ratings, you know. They like to put tags on issues and then spin them into a hurricane, especially if it fits the agendas of our media tycoons. I can say more but no rage.


Maybe a combination of probable outcomes then?

I.E., considerable magical destruction across the mid-east, Tel Aviv fears it's next OH NOES, but wait, what's this? Corp XYZ is offering to step up their presence and insure protection in exchange for concessions of political authority? Sold!
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Sir_Psycho
post Apr 30 2012, 10:31 AM
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QUOTE ("Emrak")
You could do something similar with the Middle East. Aka, so many extremists on all sides suddenly having access to magic = magical Armageddon. Jerusalem, Bethlehem, Tel Aviv, Baghdad, Mecca, all virtually destroyed. Wipe the slate clean. Perhaps all the magical warfare warped Ley Lines and created etheric vortexes.


QUOTE ("Raiki")
Honestly, given the deeply invested emotions and superstitions inherent to this area(y'know, the very reasons we have to walk on eggshells to talk about it here) this is pretty much the only possible outcome.

Power+Passion-Belief in Consequences=Destruction.


I'm having trouble responding to this. One response that came to mind was "Jesus, Aden. Way to throw the baby out with the bath water", but that's not adequate. It's a really esoteric idea that the middle east would receive the awakening and then (even be able to) totally decimate themselves. If the Great Ghost Dance/NAN, dragons, Tir Tairngire, Azzie blood magic, Amazonia, the Illuminates, bugs, YOTC etc. didn't and can't destroy the entire continent of America, then we should give the middle east.

If I recall, this is a part of the world that historically gave us Arabic numerals and algebra. The Ottoman empire developed a rigorous sign language that they used to educate and converse with the deaf, socializing them, teaching them to read and write. Keep in mind that the Greek philosophers, who we credit with pioneering logic and scientific principle, were retarded enough to believe that deaf people were mentally impaired and impossible to teach, because people learned with their ears. There are Islamic traditions and laws regarding warfare that prohibit killing women, children, and the elderly as well as the destruction of land, specifically fruit bearing trees and livestock.

I'm not saying it would be a setting devoid of violence and atrocities (and background count), but it should be treated with a little more intellectual, ethical and historical rigour than "They played with fire and burnt everybody's houses down."

Shadowrun is a world of rapidly changing magic and technology, and the interest comes from doing the dirty work amongst ideologies and motivations of the groups and individuals trying to ensure their place or puzzle it all out. It becomes less interesting when it's homogenous, and worthless when they're all dead because of the homogeneity.

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Raiki
post Apr 30 2012, 10:51 AM
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QUOTE (Sir_Psycho @ Apr 30 2012, 06:31 AM) *
I'm having trouble responding to this. One response that came to mind was "Jesus, Aden. Way to throw the baby out with the bath water", but that's not adequate. It's a really esoteric idea that the middle east would receive the awakening and then (even be able to) totally decimate themselves. If the Great Ghost Dance/NAN, dragons, Tir Tairngire, Azzie blood magic, Amazonia, the Illuminates, bugs, YOTC etc. didn't and can't destroy the entire continent of America, then we should give the middle east.

If I recall, this is a part of the world that historically gave us Arabic numerals and algebra. The Ottoman empire developed a rigorous sign language that they used to educate and converse with the deaf, socializing them, teaching them to read and write. Keep in mind that the Greek philosophers, who we credit with pioneering logic and scientific principle, were retarded enough to believe that deaf people were mentally impaired and impossible to teach, because people learned with their ears. There are Islamic traditions and laws regarding warfare that prohibit killing women, children, and the elderly as well as the destruction of land, specifically fruit bearing trees and livestock.

I'm not saying it would be a setting devoid of violence and atrocities (and background count), but it should be treated with a little more intellectual, ethical and historical rigour than "They played with fire and burnt everybody's houses down."

Shadowrun is a world of rapidly changing magic and technology, and the interest comes from doing the dirty work amongst ideologies and motivations of the groups and individuals trying to ensure their place or puzzle it all out. It becomes less interesting when it's homogenous, and worthless when they're all dead because of the homogeneity.


You make some very valid points, however my statement was in no way meant to be "The middle east has no history of intellectualism, global contributions to knowledge and peace, philosophy or substance." Instead it was meant to say "When you have an entire geographical area united by a common distrust and disregard for reason, when you have a region where the very governments embrace superstition and wield bureaucratic power as a weapon against their theological rivals, when you have a region where two mutually exclusive philosophies each call for the destruction of the other, when you have acolytes of these philosophies convinced that the death of their bodies will send them on to a life of unlimited pleasure, and when you add Phenomenal-Cosmic-Power completely at random to this perfect storm of strife and human misery, do not be at all surprised when the house burns down."


...Also, I hate to be *that guy*, but decimate means "to reduce their numbers by one tenth". In that regard, you are correct, as I have a hard time believing the the casualties would be anywhere near so low.

All that being said, I'm beginning to think more and more that the middle-east would be a very interesting location to run a game.


(Also, mods, I hope this post didn't cross the imaginary line in the sand. If it did, let me know and I will gladly edit out any offending portions.)

~R~
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Warlordtheft
post Apr 30 2012, 01:43 PM
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QUOTE (Sengir @ Apr 28 2012, 01:42 PM) *
The Palestinians are mentioned in fluff: Both sides pulled their act together and agreed on a two-state solution. When the Eurowars 2.0 came along most Palestinians did not exactly feel like surrendering their independence again and sided with Israel.


Was that in the Shadows of Asia or the Almanac?
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Irion
post Apr 30 2012, 01:50 PM
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@Raiki
The problems in the middle east would be pupping up everywhere. Just think of Northern Ireland...
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Seriously Mike
post Apr 30 2012, 03:01 PM
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QUOTE (Sir_Psycho @ Apr 30 2012, 12:31 PM) *
If I recall, this is a part of the world that historically gave us Arabic numerals and algebra. The Ottoman empire developed a rigorous sign language that they used to educate and converse with the deaf, socializing them, teaching them to read and write. Keep in mind that the Greek philosophers, who we credit with pioneering logic and scientific principle, were retarded enough to believe that deaf people were mentally impaired and impossible to teach, because people learned with their ears. There are Islamic traditions and laws regarding warfare that prohibit killing women, children, and the elderly as well as the destruction of land, specifically fruit bearing trees and livestock.

QUOTE
You make some very valid points, however my statement was in no way meant to be "The middle east has no history of intellectualism, global contributions to knowledge and peace, philosophy or substance." Instead it was meant to say "When you have an entire geographical area united by a common distrust and disregard for reason, when you have a region where the very governments embrace superstition and wield bureaucratic power as a weapon against their theological rivals, when you have a region where two mutually exclusive philosophies each call for the destruction of the other, when you have acolytes of these philosophies convinced that the death of their bodies will send them on to a life of unlimited pleasure, and when you add Phenomenal-Cosmic-Power completely at random to this perfect storm of strife and human misery, do not be at all surprised when the house burns down."

From what I've read, Islamic extremism (which is a pretty new thing actually) was severely compromised in SR4: not only Aden obliterated Teheran (and I believe that would trigger a revolution against the theocracy), but also the leader of the Islamic Jihad was proved to be a Shedim. Then there's that problem with more fundamentalist Muslims considering practicing magic a sin, which would put them at a disadvantage against Kabbalists (looking at the insane power of FORCE TEN STUNBOLT I think that magic can easily trump tech in combat). Also, thanks to globalization, people living in Islamic states can be inspired by Western democracy (like they do now), downplaying the fundamentalist trend. This way, in the Sixth World you might have both moderate, more democratic states and fundamentalist, totalitarian theocracies (IIRC in SR Saudi Arabia is still a totalitarian, fundamentalist state).
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Sir_Psycho
post Apr 30 2012, 04:18 PM
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QUOTE (Raiki @ Apr 30 2012, 06:51 AM) *
You make some very valid points, however my statement was in no way meant to be "The middle east has no history of intellectualism, global contributions to knowledge and peace, philosophy or substance." Instead it was meant to say "When you have an entire geographical area united by a common distrust and disregard for reason, when you have a region where the very governments embrace superstition and wield bureaucratic power as a weapon against their theological rivals, when you have a region where two mutually exclusive philosophies each call for the destruction of the other, when you have acolytes of these philosophies convinced that the death of their bodies will send them on to a life of unlimited pleasure, and when you add Phenomenal-Cosmic-Power completely at random to this perfect storm of strife and human misery, do not be at all surprised when the house burns down."

I agree that religion is used by/as authority, along with finance, education, law, violence, technology etc. as a method of control and to drive specific agendas and disenfranchise populations. I objected to the idea of "belief in no consequences" applied indiscriminately and in the context of genocide. I don't believe as some do that religion is the source of ethics and empathy, those things respectively are culturally developed (by a wider range of factors than region and/or religion) and biological. With that opinion in mind, I hope you can tell that my objection is an entire continent being likened to or lumped along with violent xenophobes.

I'll admit this is slightly personal, because this brand of generalist rationale has reached as far as Australia and been harnessed by politicians in my own country to justify the contravention of UN refugee conventions and pander to racist voters. Also, I don't want to or mean to accuse you (or Emrak) of such thinking, but when your point was confined to a really, really simple equation, and followed a post where I read the words "Wipe the slate clean" in this context... That might make it easier to understand.

Bringing it back to magic, it's the old less than one percent problem. So, taking in mind that the Muslim Brotherhood's rather particular ideas on violent martyrdom do not represent Islam or the regions where it is a dominant religion, add the awakening to the mix, and I can't see the quota being filled on magical psychopath artillery, at least not enough to flatten a continent. With all the corp/military/government intelligence eyeballs on those sorts of groups, you would imagine that those very fleshy pieces of magical weaponry would be... neutralized.

QUOTE
...Also, I hate to be *that guy*, but decimate means "to reduce their numbers by one tenth". In that regard, you are correct, as I have a hard time believing the the casualties would be anywhere near so low.

Ave Decimus Maximus. Mea Culpa.
QUOTE
All that being said, I'm beginning to think more and more that the middle-east would be a very interesting location to run a game.

That's why I'm thrilled to have this thread here on DF. We can develop the setting into something a little more complex and interesting that we can use as for runs or background. Even if it's just a sound bite on a media ARO, or a comment made by your hacker contact in the IRM when you ask him "how's things?"

Otherwise, we might as well be playing 50 cent: Blood on the Sand. Here's a hilarious Charlie Brooker review.

QUOTE
From what I've read, Islamic extremism (which is a pretty new thing actually) was severely compromised in SR4: not only Aden obliterated Teheran (and I believe that would trigger a revolution against the theocracy), but also the leader of the Islamic Jihad was proved to be a Shedim. Then there's that problem with more fundamentalist Muslims considering practicing magic a sin, which would put them at a disadvantage against Kabbalists (looking at the insane power of FORCE TEN STUNBOLT I think that magic can easily trump tech in combat). Also, thanks to globalization, people living in Islamic states can be inspired by Western democracy (like they do now), downplaying the fundamentalist trend. This way, in the Sixth World you might have both moderate, more democratic states and fundamentalist, totalitarian theocracies (IIRC in SR Saudi Arabia is still a totalitarian, fundamentalist state).

Another point is that there are a lot of mujahideen lying in mass graves all over Europe.

Although, on the flipside. Aden would have killed a staggering amount of Iranian civilians, increasing fear and hatred of the awakened. Ibn Eisa's Shedim puppeteer? probably the same story, although, I've been wondering how much the average sixth world citizen knows about that. I've always figured they just think the Shedim are zombies (lower Shedim) and may not know or understand the threat the higher Shedim pose. Then we have outside interference in the middle east perpetrated by everyone from the Soviets, The US, Ares, S-K and dozens of other corps, not to mention whatever the Atlantean Foundation and DIMR are digging up or fiddling with and how they go about it. So I don't think they'd be super convinced about the benefits of western democracy.
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Warlordtheft
post Apr 30 2012, 06:04 PM
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Soviets are gone, anf Russia's to busy with the Yakut Rebels to worry about the middle east. The USA is gone and neither the CAS or UCAS really care about the middle east.

UCAS/CAS History of the middle east:

In the latter half of the 20th Centure the U.S. tried to police the middle east. This had some consequences, as forces were stationed overseas, and significant resources (military and treasure) were used up. Leading to more indebtedness and less fiscal resources being availble. The solution was to allow companies to develop the natural resources in Federal lands. Unfortunately, the total exploitation of these resources helped promote Native american resistance and helped that resistance gain some traction even amongst non-Native Americans. So in effect the U.S. involvement in the middle east contributed to its downfall.
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Raiki
post Apr 30 2012, 08:56 PM
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QUOTE (Irion @ Apr 30 2012, 09:50 AM) *
@Raiki
The problems in the middle east would be pupping up everywhere. Just think of Northern Ireland...



That's absolutely true. I wasn't trying to imply that this would be a localized phenomenon. I don't know about all the shit that went down during the awakening, since I've only been playing since very early 4th ed, but didn't Hawaii pretty much just explode with magical rebellion when the awakening hit? That's how my more long-standing-player friends explained to me anyway, and *that's* more along the lines of what I've been trying to say.

Sir_Psycho: I am in no way trying to target a specific nationality or creed in this discussion. Yes, given the current social climate of the world, it's pretty easy to just target "extremist muslims" and call it a day, but easy doesn't mean honest or true. There are extremists, fundamentalists, and just plain crazy people of all and no faiths (as well as scholars, humanitarians, scientists and other people just trying to make the world a better place). I'm more blaming the fact that this entire area is a hotbed of fundamentalism on a much grander scale. We have the holy lands of all 3 Abrahamic religions crammed into one, relatively small, geographic area. And in this said area, some quick googling has told me that the current population is well over 365 million*. Three hundred and sixty five million! Now, even if we're incredibly generous and assume that VITAS killed off a full half of them, and that the trend of population growth we're seeing worldwide evens out to a flat 1:1 ratio, that's still 182,500,000 people. Less than one percent of that would be roughly 1,500,000 mages. Now, even if we reduce that by another factor of one hundred to represent separating the wheat from the chaff, we have 15,000 mages who are worth their salt. We're talking runner-level mages. And we have more than enough evidence as to what a determined group of those can do. Just take a look at the Great Ghost Dance. Yes lots of people had to sacrifice their lives to power the ritual, but...do I really need to finish this sentence and risk mod-wrath, or can you fill in the blanks yourself?

Now, as has been said, there is a possibility that things in Shadowrun could have taken a drastically different turn than what I'm projecting, or even what has already happened to date in 2012, so you have plenty of leeway to run the game however you see fit. This just happens to be what makes the most sense to me.


For this number, I went to this page http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Middl...s_by_population, and added up the populations of the most relevant countries.

~R~
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almost normal
post Apr 30 2012, 09:17 PM
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QUOTE (Mirilion @ Apr 29 2012, 03:09 AM) *
As Israel is in a pretty real danger of becoming a full theocracy even today, I can see this pushing it over the edge...


It'd be handy if you kept your personal opinions on religion and politics out of the thread.
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Raiki
post Apr 30 2012, 09:38 PM
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QUOTE (almost normal @ Apr 30 2012, 04:17 PM) *
It'd be handy if you kept your personal opinions on religion and politics out of the thread.



(IMG:style_emoticons/default/extinguish.gif) Calm down there, chummer. No need to dig back almost 2 pages in a thread to flame someone for one line of their 1.5ish paragraph post. This entire topic is a bit touchy, obviously, but making posts that do nothing but fan the flames won't help anyone. If the post actually bothers you, report it to the mods and they will see if it requires action.



~R~
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almost normal
post Apr 30 2012, 09:44 PM
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It's in the first post on this page. I'm also dubious to your notion that asking someone to keep to the rules of the forums is "flaming".
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Raiki
post Apr 30 2012, 10:07 PM
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QUOTE (almost normal @ Apr 30 2012, 05:44 PM) *
It's in the first post on this page. I'm also dubious to your notion that asking someone to keep to the rules of the forums is "flaming".


As to the location of the post: *shrug* We must have our posts-per-page set differently, I see it half way up page 2.

Also:

QUOTE (Dumpshock Forums Terms of Service)
- Please do not try to do the job of the forum staff. If you have an issue that you would like to see addressed, PM a moderator and we will take a look at the situation.

This includes such actions as telling people what to post or not post, asking people to leave or stop posting, or telling someone that you are reporting them to forum staff, among other things.


That is all.


~R~
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Sengir
post Apr 30 2012, 11:42 PM
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QUOTE (Warlordtheft @ Apr 30 2012, 02:43 PM) *
Was that in the Shadows of Asia or the Almanac?

SoA
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Mirilion
post May 1 2012, 02:28 PM
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QUOTE (almost normal @ Apr 30 2012, 10:17 PM) *
It'd be handy if you kept your personal opinions on religion and politics out of the thread.


I toned it down a bit. Apologies.
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Raiki
post May 4 2012, 03:59 AM
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...yeah, that killed the thread pretty quickly. No worries, though, chummers! I happen to be a level 63 necromancer.

To those of you actually living in Israel: All I have to go on is a the poor excuse for news that they show us here in the states(well, and Wikipedia...but...yeah), so my question is this: Exactly how entrenched is Judaism in general, and the belief in the more mystical aspects of Kabbalah specifically, in the Israeli mindset and culture? Now, I don't mean this on a grand scale, but more on a street level, if you will. To the average Israeli, do either of these things have any real impact on their daily life?

The main reason I ask, is I'm wondering just *how* much of an effect the Awakening will have, assuming the horrific explosion theory *doesn't* pan out. Upthread, someone mentioned a kind of Golem Secret Police unit. Is this within the realms of believability, or so far out of the reality of contemporary Israel as to be ridiculous?

~R~
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Seriously Mike
post May 4 2012, 08:36 AM
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QUOTE (Warlordtheft @ Apr 30 2012, 08:04 PM) *
Soviets are gone, anf Russia's to busy with the Yakut Rebels to worry about the middle east. The USA is gone and neither the CAS or UCAS really care about the middle east.

UCAS/CAS History of the middle east:

In the latter half of the 20th Centure the U.S. tried to police the middle east. This had some consequences, as forces were stationed overseas, and significant resources (military and treasure) were used up. Leading to more indebtedness and less fiscal resources being availble. The solution was to allow companies to develop the natural resources in Federal lands. Unfortunately, the total exploitation of these resources helped promote Native american resistance and helped that resistance gain some traction even amongst non-Native Americans. So in effect the U.S. involvement in the middle east contributed to its downfall.
It makes sense. Simply and amazingly.
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Mirilion
post May 5 2012, 07:30 AM
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QUOTE (Raiki @ May 4 2012, 04:59 AM) *
...yeah, that killed the thread pretty quickly. No worries, though, chummers! I happen to be a level 63 necromancer.

To those of you actually living in Israel: All I have to go on is a the poor excuse for news that they show us here in the states(well, and Wikipedia...but...yeah), so my question is this: Exactly how entrenched is Judaism in general, and the belief in the more mystical aspects of Kabbalah specifically, in the Israeli mindset and culture? Now, I don't mean this on a grand scale, but more on a street level, if you will. To the average Israeli, do either of these things have any real impact on their daily life?

The main reason I ask, is I'm wondering just *how* much of an effect the Awakening will have, assuming the horrific explosion theory *doesn't* pan out. Upthread, someone mentioned a kind of Golem Secret Police unit. Is this within the realms of believability, or so far out of the reality of contemporary Israel as to be ridiculous?

~R~


Judaism in general is very entrenched in everything, even if only as a base for rebels to rebel against. Kaballah isn't there at all, gimmetria is sometimes used by religious figures in their lectures and speeches sometimes, that's about it. A lot of Israelis believe in the supernatural power of prominent religious figures, and even some witches/wise women/wizards or "traditional" mystical medicine, amulets, stuff like that. The impact of Judaism on daily life is very low for secular non practitioners, but even then you have the traditional holidays and stuff like public transportation on Saturday. Practitioners wear kippahs, go to synagogues, eat kosher and stuff like that, so it's always there at some level even if you're not ultra orthodox.
Kaballah is unknown, golems are unknown at street level. Most of the miracles you hear about have to do with medicine, or strange probability manipulations (blessings) that result in good health and material wealth.
I happened to overhear the personal story of a man who suffered from a chronic debilitating leg pain, and was about to have it amputated. As a last resort he met with this prominent religious figure, who advised him to wait just a few more weeks. His doctor then called him a week later and told him there's a new treatment, and no more leg pains. I mean, if the man died from some infection in his leg he wouldn't be able to tell his story, so you hear about the bad stuff only once in a great while, but it still has an impact.
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Laughing One
post May 5 2012, 06:29 PM
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You dont have to go to the kaballah in order to find mysticism for the average Israeli: theres plenty of superstitions and exceptional stories, and detailing them could go on forever.

Having these things coming "out" during the awakening wont necessarily change anything for anyone - for many Israelis, these things were always true. Expect for the fireball throwing pink mohawk troll, that is.
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