IPB

Welcome Guest ( Log In | Register )

3 Pages V   1 2 3 >  
Reply to this topicStart new topic
> Tel Aviv, Israel, Real life is starting to catch up
Mirilion
post Apr 26 2012, 10:57 PM
Post #1


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 202
Joined: 11-June 09
Member No.: 17,271



As an Israeli, I always thought Israel's shadowrun entry was incredibly ridiculous. Today an article came out predicting Tel Aviv and the surrounding towns declaring independence from the increasingly incompetent Israeli government by 2050. According to the writers, Israel becomes a series of interconnected town-states along the shore, with the rest of the (very small) country left to fend for itself.

As I said, I think that the way things are described in the SR history is ridiculous, for many reasons. Considering the current situation, a "balkanized" Israel fits the SR setting much more than an "Israeli Empire".

Anyway I realize no one here probably has anything to do with Israel or Hebrew, but what the hell, here's the link.

http://www.themarker.com/realestate/1.1693813

I might add that there is a very serious real estate pricing problem in Israel right now, and it's insane in Tel Aviv.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Bigity
post Apr 26 2012, 11:35 PM
Post #2


Shooting Target
****

Group: Members
Posts: 1,833
Joined: 24-July 02
From: Lubbock, TX
Member No.: 3,024



That seems overly bleak, at least regarding the state of the military.

I've met several veterans of the six day war, and more contemporary military folks, from my own time in the USAF. They didn't seem incompetant or zealots (in fact, most of them told me all the Jewish stuff was played up far more by the US media than their own).

In any case, IMO, a fractured Israel of town-states is going to last about as long as it takes the surrounding nations to fuel up the 50 year old tanks.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Critias
post Apr 26 2012, 11:36 PM
Post #3


Freelance Elf
*********

Group: Dumpshocked
Posts: 7,216
Joined: 30-September 04
From: Texas
Member No.: 6,714



I don't see how huge parts of your post are anything but political commentary. You might want to edit big chunks of that to make it more focused on SR, and less focused on real-world bitching about the direction a country's moving in (which is all too likely to draw mod ire, or prompt a conversation that cannot help but do so).
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Method
post Apr 26 2012, 11:51 PM
Post #4


Street Doc
******

Group: Admin
Posts: 3,486
Joined: 2-March 04
From: Neverwhere
Member No.: 6,114



<subtle hint>Critias is a smart dude.</subtle hint>
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Mirilion
post Apr 26 2012, 11:52 PM
Post #5


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 202
Joined: 11-June 09
Member No.: 17,271



QUOTE (Bigity @ Apr 26 2012, 11:35 PM) *
That seems overly bleak, at least regarding the state of the military.

I've met several veterans of the six day war, and more contemporary military folks, from my own time in the USAF. They didn't seem incompetant or zealots (in fact, most of them told me all the Jewish stuff was played up far more by the US media than their own).

In any case, IMO, a fractured Israel of town-states is going to last about as long as it takes the surrounding nations to fuel up the 50 year old tanks.


Hmph. Well, the six day war was 45 years ago. Look at how Israel did in what we laughingly call "The 2nd Lebanon War". A paramilitary organization vs. the mighty IDF, it was brutal. Friends got called to the front lines and had to go in without food or equipment. No air strikes because they were firing from areas full of civilians.

I also disagree somewhat with your last sentence, Tel Aviv and the coastal cities will fare much better without interference from the government IMHO.

QUOTE (Critias @ Apr 26 2012, 11:36 PM) *
I don't see how huge parts of your post are anything but political commentary. You might want to edit big chunks of that to make it more focused on SR, and less focused on real-world bitching about the direction a country's moving in (which is all too likely to draw mod ire, or prompt a conversation that cannot help but do so).


Apologies. Hopefully hiding the rant in a spoiler tag is okay. I think it's relevant because this is how many Tel Aviv residents (Tel Avivites?) think, including me, and any campaign in Israel will probably be loaded with politics and rage anyway.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Method
post Apr 26 2012, 11:58 PM
Post #6


Street Doc
******

Group: Admin
Posts: 3,486
Joined: 2-March 04
From: Neverwhere
Member No.: 6,114



Americans have some strong opinions about Israel. Thats why this topic (as presented) is likely to draw some negative attention. I don't want to lock it outright, because you are trying to draw a parallel to SR, but the focus of your OP makes this discussion tenuous. If I were you, I'd consider editing a little to emphasize the game-like aspects of the news story and try to avert a heated political debate that will derail the thread (thats a not-so-subtle hint).
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
CanRay
post Apr 27 2012, 12:00 AM
Post #7


Immortal Elf
**********

Group: Dumpshocked
Posts: 14,358
Joined: 2-December 07
From: Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada
Member No.: 14,465



So, how are those Mossad Troll Ninjas?
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Mirilion
post Apr 27 2012, 12:13 AM
Post #8


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 202
Joined: 11-June 09
Member No.: 17,271



QUOTE (Method @ Apr 26 2012, 11:58 PM) *
Americans have some strong opinions about Israel. Thats why this topic (as presented) is likely to draw some negative attention. I don't want to lock it outright, because you are trying to draw a parallel to SR, but the focus of your OP makes this discussion tenuous. If I were you, I'd consider editing a little to emphasize the game-like aspects of the news story and try to avert a heated political debate that will derail the thread (thats a not-so-subtle hint).


Well, I have pretty strong opinions about Israel too, but that's because I'm Jewish and I lived here all my life. Anyway point taken, original post trimmed.

I think a campaign set in an independent "Megaviv" along the Mediterranean shore can be amazing, already me and some friends are considering playing in it just because of that article.

QUOTE (CanRay @ Apr 27 2012, 12:00 AM) *
So, how are those Mossad Troll Ninjas?


I've never seen one (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Laughing One
post Apr 27 2012, 12:19 AM
Post #9


Target
*

Group: Members
Posts: 37
Joined: 22-December 08
Member No.: 16,704



Israeli reporting.

The article you posted is really interesting.

To anyone who dont like to use google translate, the article discuss an idea that cities all over the world would declare political and economical independence, and give Israel as an example for how each city will have its own area of expertise, i.e. A certain city will focus on harvesting natural Gas, while another will host military personal, generally giving everyone an opportunity to live in a surrounding for his liking while every city is working with other cities.

Perhaps Tel-aviv and its sorrounding towns could go toward political and economical independence, however I dont see how the country of Israel would give up the taxes from its biggest group of cities. This is not Eilat we are talking about.

Millitary-wise, I'm sure the entire countrly would stay united. Remember that in the shadowverse, Israel have some really potent magic and other arms. And as such, Tel-aviv would be required to pay for its protection... I could see some corps jumping on the opportunity to cover such expanses (or just provide the military hardware) for some "contracts and special terms" in the metropolex of Tel-Aviv.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Mirilion
post Apr 27 2012, 12:23 AM
Post #10


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 202
Joined: 11-June 09
Member No.: 17,271



QUOTE (Laughing One @ Apr 27 2012, 12:19 AM) *
Israeli reporting.


I approve.

The state of Israel would have no choice but to comply, because of said corps and their considerable power over the government. I could give examples from real life but I'm in forced no-rage mode.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Sengir
post Apr 27 2012, 12:40 AM
Post #11


Dragon
********

Group: Dumpshocked
Posts: 4,013
Joined: 3-October 09
From: Kohle, Stahl und Bier
Member No.: 17,709



QUOTE (Mirilion @ Apr 26 2012, 11:52 PM) *
I also disagree somewhat with your last sentence, Tel Aviv and the coastal cities will fare much better without interference from the government IMHO.

Sure, the costal cities could just declare independence and rely on the "rump state" as a buffer zone to cover their backs. The question is just how long Israel would last without its economic centers and a good part of the population...

And compared to SR history as a whole, I don't think Israel sticks out as particularly bad (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Laughing One
post Apr 27 2012, 12:47 AM
Post #12


Target
*

Group: Members
Posts: 37
Joined: 22-December 08
Member No.: 16,704



Sounds alright so far.

So we got a corp-managed Tel-aviv. The corps succeeded to cut the middle men from squeezing the milk from the little men, which sounds about right regarding our genre. What makes Tel-Aviv different from all the other corp-cities?
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Mirilion
post Apr 27 2012, 12:55 AM
Post #13


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 202
Joined: 11-June 09
Member No.: 17,271



QUOTE (Sengir @ Apr 27 2012, 01:40 AM) *
Sure, the costal cities could just declare independence and rely on the "rump state" as a buffer zone to cover their backs. The question is just how long Israel would last without its economic centers and a good part of the population...

And compared to SR history as a whole, I don't think Israel sticks out as particularly bad (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)


Yeah, the army thing would be a problem. I think The Laughing One covered it:

First, I guess it could work if the new city state supported the army directly with money, along with the buffer state. Again, I could go on about real life here, but rage is not allowed.
Second, you could say that since Israel is home to the largest Jewish community, it's also home to a high number of awakened Jewish tradition mages. While Tel Aviv is considered pretty secular, it does have several orthodox centers such as B'nei B'rak located nearby.

QUOTE (Laughing One @ Apr 27 2012, 01:47 AM) *
Sounds alright so far.

So we got a corp-managed Tel-aviv. The corps succeeded to cut the middle men from squeezing the milk from the little men, which sounds about right regarding our genre. What makes Tel-Aviv different from all the other corp-cities?


Military weapons research, probably with a lot of focus on magic, Matrix hardware and software, natural gas. Golems helping police.
Also, since Hebrew letters everywhere, I'm guessing the metroplex will maintain large scale kaballah defensive magics. Funny to imagine maintenance crews being accompanied by a group of orthodox mages fixing broken street signs.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Angelone
post Apr 27 2012, 01:22 AM
Post #14


Running Target
***

Group: Members
Posts: 1,283
Joined: 24-May 05
From: A 10x10 room with an orc and a treasure chest
Member No.: 7,409



I was only in Israel a short time, but yeah some of the military are pretty umm... I'll say hooah. I visited Nevatin(spelling?), Tzuk, and a port city Ash(something) and almost got shot trying to get to my equipment. Also almost got mauled by a giant porcupine.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Mirilion
post Apr 27 2012, 06:44 AM
Post #15


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 202
Joined: 11-June 09
Member No.: 17,271



QUOTE (Angelone @ Apr 27 2012, 01:22 AM) *
Also almost got mauled by a giant porcupine.


We don't talk about the porcupines.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Ryu
post Apr 27 2012, 07:42 AM
Post #16


Awakened Asset
********

Group: Members
Posts: 4,390
Joined: 9-April 05
From: AGS, North German League
Member No.: 7,309



The beast shown here would have a hard time mauling anything. So please do tell about the giant mammals. We need dangerous stuff for Running Wild: Israel . (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Mirilion
post Apr 27 2012, 07:59 AM
Post #17


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 202
Joined: 11-June 09
Member No.: 17,271



QUOTE (Ryu @ Apr 27 2012, 07:42 AM) *
The beast shown here would have a hard time mauling anything. So please do tell about the giant mammals. We need dangerous stuff for Running Wild: Israel . (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)


Actually... Haifa is a coastal city with some areas built on the Carmel mountain. Some areas and valleys between neighborhoods are heavily forested and are considered natural reserves. When I was a student at the Technion technical institute over there I could hear jackals howling in the woods when I went outside my dorms. There was even a story going around of a pack of rabid jackals attacking a student a few years earlier. I also know there are a lot of wild boars in remote areas, and some these things (edit: warning - not safe for arachnophobes)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solifugae

crawling around in the deserts to the south. Their favorite food is apparently young soldiers/campers in sleeping bags. Imagine waking up in the cold desert night and seeing one of these about to munch on your face.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Raiki
post Apr 27 2012, 08:21 AM
Post #18


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 233
Joined: 27-September 10
From: New York
Member No.: 19,080



Being an intense arachnophobe, and having expected some kind of strange desert mammal behind that link, I now have an intense dislike of Israel, Arizona, this entire thread, and in fact life in general. I'm going to go over there until I stop twitching, I'll be back later.


Edit: Also, since the wikipedia entry had too many pictures, and I'm now morbidly curious...do they really attack adult humans? Because that's terrifying.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Mirilion
post Apr 27 2012, 08:41 AM
Post #19


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 202
Joined: 11-June 09
Member No.: 17,271



QUOTE (Raiki @ Apr 27 2012, 08:21 AM) *
Being an intense arachnophobe, and having expected some kind of strange desert mammal behind that link, I now have an intense dislike of Israel, Arizona, this entire thread, and in fact life in general. I'm going to go over there until I stop twitching, I'll be back later.


Edit: Also, since the wikipedia entry had too many pictures, and I'm now morbidly curious...do they really attack adult humans? Because that's terrifying.


They usually don't, but they do get into sleeping bags. People were bit while sleeping because their movements were interpreted as hostile (accidentally crushing the thing), and their bite is strong enough to leave scars. These things are terrifying on a very primal level, though, so it's not too hard to imagine an awakened, giant version. They hunt down scorpions in real life... anti terminator terminators basically.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Raiki
post Apr 27 2012, 08:57 AM
Post #20


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 233
Joined: 27-September 10
From: New York
Member No.: 19,080



QUOTE (Mirilion @ Apr 27 2012, 04:41 AM) *
They usually don't, but they do get into sleeping bags. People were bit while sleeping because their movements were interpreted as hostile (accidentally crushing the thing), and their bite is strong enough to leave scars. These things are terrifying on a very primal level, though, so it's not too hard to imagine an awakened, giant version. They hunt down scorpions in real life... anti terminator terminators basically.



You see, this is why curiosity is not always a good character trait. Now I'm imagining them in my bed.

Dammit.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Tymeaus Jalynsfe...
post Apr 27 2012, 01:46 PM
Post #21


Prime Runner Ascendant
**********

Group: Members
Posts: 16,580
Joined: 26-March 09
From: Aurora, Colorado
Member No.: 17,022



QUOTE (Raiki @ Apr 27 2012, 02:57 AM) *
You see, this is why curiosity is not always a good character trait. Now I'm imagining them in my bed.

Dammit.


Sometimes, the hyperactive imagination of a Gamer is a detriment. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Neraph
post Apr 27 2012, 03:37 PM
Post #22


Great Dragon
*********

Group: Members
Posts: 5,348
Joined: 30-September 08
From: D/FW Megaplex
Member No.: 16,387



QUOTE (Ryu @ Apr 27 2012, 01:42 AM) *
The beast shown here would have a hard time mauling anything. So please do tell about the giant mammals. We need dangerous stuff for Running Wild: Israel . (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

A nearly three foot long porcupine doesn't intimidate you?

QUOTE (Mirilion @ Apr 27 2012, 01:59 AM) *
Actually... Haifa is a coastal city with some areas built on the Carmel mountain. Some areas and valleys between neighborhoods are heavily forested and are considered natural reserves. When I was a student at the Technion technical institute over there I could hear jackals howling in the woods when I went outside my dorms. There was even a story going around of a pack of rabid jackals attacking a student a few years earlier. I also know there are a lot of wild boars in remote areas, and some these things (edit: warning - not safe for arachnophobes)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solifugae

crawling around in the deserts to the south. Their favorite food is apparently young soldiers/campers in sleeping bags. Imagine waking up in the cold desert night and seeing one of these about to munch on your face.

Echoing the warning from above: here's a size comparison.

Also, here's Bear Grylls eating one.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Sengir
post Apr 27 2012, 05:49 PM
Post #23


Dragon
********

Group: Dumpshocked
Posts: 4,013
Joined: 3-October 09
From: Kohle, Stahl und Bier
Member No.: 17,709



QUOTE (Mirilion @ Apr 27 2012, 12:55 AM) *
First, I guess it could work if the new city state supported the army directly with money, along with the buffer state.

So you would have money flowing back and forth over the border, a joint defence, same culture/language/history, certainly also a free trade and free travel, basically the same country everywhere except for different defintions of what constitutes indecent exposure. Where exactly is the difference to today's united Israel except in name? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Ryu
post Apr 27 2012, 06:13 PM
Post #24


Awakened Asset
********

Group: Members
Posts: 4,390
Joined: 9-April 05
From: AGS, North German League
Member No.: 7,309



QUOTE (Neraph @ Apr 27 2012, 05:37 PM) *

As long as itīs primary battle plan is A)Threaten B)if attacker insists: turn your back to it and attack, no.

An awakened version could be very terrifying on the other hand.

Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Warlordtheft
post Apr 27 2012, 07:25 PM
Post #25


Neophyte Runner
*****

Group: Members
Posts: 2,244
Joined: 2-April 07
From: The Center of the Universe
Member No.: 11,360



QUOTE (Mirilion @ Apr 26 2012, 06:57 PM) *
I might add that there is a very serious real estate pricing problem in Israel right now, and it's insane in Tel Aviv.


From my understanding from a couple of articles I read the problem is that the middle class cant afford to buy property. Now in SR, yeah scant attention is given to Isreal. There are some mentions of Mossad (IIRC there is a poster by that name), the fact that isreali nukes still work, they got chemically and biologically attacked in 2008, and nuked Lybia. It has also been mentioned that Ares has aquired IMI and probably a few other military suppliers. THus giving the man outpost in the middle east.

Due to the shortage of land and the 2 hostile neighbors (the Caliphate controls alot of what was once the countries on the Iseali borders) and Egypt. Note Saeder Krupp has a significant presence in the Middle east. Proxy war anyone? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) In any event the Isreali's have reliable nukes, so the rest of the middle east kinda just said not worth it. Suprisingly no mention of the Palistinians, or their situation. I think that is because it is just one of those very sensitive topics internationally in RL.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post

3 Pages V   1 2 3 >
Reply to this topicStart new topic

 



RSS Lo-Fi Version Time is now: 25th October 2014 - 10:08 PM

Topps, Inc has sole ownership of the names, logo, artwork, marks, photographs, sounds, audio, video and/or any proprietary material used in connection with the game Shadowrun. Topps, Inc has granted permission to the Dumpshock Forums to use such names, logos, artwork, marks and/or any proprietary materials for promotional and informational purposes on its website but does not endorse, and is not affiliated with the Dumpshock Forums in any official capacity whatsoever.