Help me stat out a toxin, Succinylcholine Options

[bibliophile20]

One of my PCs is dating a chemist, and asked for something "that could kill someone and make it look natural if the ME isn't sharp or suspicious." So Amy gives the PC a vial of succinylcholine, noting that it will paralyze someone within thirty seconds to a minute, and, since their lungs will also be paralyzed, death from anoxia will follow shortly unless they have some sort of oxygen supplement or mechanical lung flow. It then degrades chemically shortly thereafter and looks like a heart attack unless the medical examiner takes a closer look.

Of course, the problem is, the toxin rules don't quite cover this sort of two stage effect, and I'm not sure what power to assign; about the only things I am sure of are:

Succinylcholine
Vector: Injection
Speed: 5+Body Combat Turns
Penetration: ???
Power: ???
Effect: Paralysis, Physical Damage

So, a little help?

[Yerameyahu]

In general, the toxin rules have nothing at all to do with real science, so that's your first mistake. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Isn't your Speed too fast, there? If you want 30-60 seconds, you want more like (10+Body) Turns.

[BishopMcQ]

How about using the stats for Slab, except this one has the option of killing the person if they fail a Body test? Use the threshold for the Body test as a multiplier for the cost.

[Yerameyahu]

I dunno if that fits. This sounds like it *will* kill them. Anyway… the rules totally cover this kind of two-stage effect, including at least one example: Gamma-Scopalamine. First you're paralyzed, *then* you tell the truth. Instead, yours will just suffocate them.

So, Paralysis is a simple secondary effect (SR4a p254), no problem there. Its basic function is 'paralyzed if Power > Reaction', so you know your Power needs to be at minimum 5-7 (*after* the Resistance test!) if you'd expect this sucker to reliably paralyze everyone. That test for Injection is basically Body+(Toxin Extractor), so you'd want the starting power (+ Penetration) to be more like… 9-11? This is in line with the several Power 10 sample toxins. (Again, Penetration lets you fiddle with this a little, if you wanted; however, most of the sample toxins don't use it.)

So, the paralysis kicks in, and then you just write into the rules that they then take P damage… or you could get fancy and actually use the drowning/suffocating rules (1 box Stun each turn, continues into 1 box Phys each turn after they pass out).

The result is almost exactly like the G-S rules: paralysis, and 'drowning' effect (instead of Truth Serum), and no messing with S or P toxin damage at all. Not only is this cool (slow death, yay), but it leaves open the possibility of the oxygenation-intervention you mentioned (Oxygenate spell, OxyRush, be creative).

[bibliophile20]

I dunno if that fits. This sounds like it *will* kill them. Anyway… the rules totally cover this kind of two-stage effect, including at least one example: Gamma-Scopalamine. First you're paralyzed, *then* you tell the truth. Instead, yours will just suffocate them.

So, Paralysis is a simple secondary effect (SR4a p254), no problem there. Its basic function is 'paralyzed if Power > Reaction', so you know your Power needs to be at minimum 5-7 (*after* the Resistance test!) if you'd expect this sucker to reliably paralyze everyone. That test for Injection is basically Body+(Toxin Extractor), so you'd want the starting power (+ Penetration) to be more like… 9-11? This is in line with the several Power 10 sample toxins. (Again, Penetration lets you fiddle with this a little, if you wanted; however, most of the sample toxins don't use it.)

So, the paralysis kicks in, and then you just write into the rules that they then take P damage… or you could get fancy and actually use the drowning/suffocating rules (1 box Stun each turn, continues into 1 box Phys each turn after they pass out).

The result is almost exactly like the G-S rules: paralysis, and 'drowning' effect (instead of Truth Serum), and no messing with S or P toxin damage at all. Not only is this cool (slow death, yay), but it leaves open the possibility of the oxygenation-intervention you mentioned (Oxygenate spell, OxyRush, be creative).

Cool. That sounds perfect. Paralysis, then "drowning". Thanks!

[Neraph]

I dunno if that fits. This sounds like it *will* kill them.

Sux does kill, quite well too. Then again, like you said, that's the problem with trying to port real-world chemistry/physics into games (like freakin' ekyelebenle venom, supposed to be five times more potent than black mamba venom, being only 8P damage).

[Eratosthenes]

It's a fast acting, but short duration, paralytic agent. You can either make it similar to "Breaktaker" found in Arsenal (pg. 83), or make up something new:

I'd say:

Succinylcholine
Vector: Injection
Speed: Immediate
Penetration: 0
Power: 20
Effect: Paralysis

The victim of succinylcholine makes a new Toxin Resistance Test every turn. As long as the Power is greater than their Reaction, they are paralysed. While paralyzed, the victim is considered to be "Holding their breath", per page 137 of SR4A.

---

Adjust the power to a level you deem appropriate. Basically, it becomes an Extended test, using their Body + Toxin filters with a Threshold of the Power. After 16 turns, they start taking unresistable Stun damage from suffocation. I'd say they don't get the willpower test to extend that time, since they likely wouldn't have a chance to take a deep breath.

You'll likely need to figure out a power level that's a good balance between effective yet survivable. Heck, EMT's use it for intubation since even if the intubation fails, it typically wears off before they suffocate.

[Yerameyahu]

Ah, that sounds very different from how the first post described it. For *that* to kill someone, the power would have to be huge; 16 turns is a *lot* of Resistance dice to keep rolling.

[Method]

If the short duration of sux is an issue, you could just use a longer acting paralytic like rocuronium or vecuronium.

But otherwise i think Eratosthenes has the right idea. The lethal effects of the paralytic drugs are secondary to paralysis of the diaphragm, which is the last muscle to be paralyzed and the first to recover. So using rules that might allow the target to be partially paralyzed wouldn't work. They would have to be completely paralyzed or it's not lethal.

Edit: as an aside the drug/toxin rules in SR are retarded because they make arbitrary distinctions where there really are none. Treating drugs and toxins differently creates silly situations, and this is (another) good example.

[Yerameyahu]

Well, yes: if you're using the one I suggested (based on the description of a non-short-term, lethal paralytic), then the suffocation is contingent on them failing the paralysis test in the first place. But if it that description is 'wrong' (meaning, not the one desired for the game—screw RL science), then you certainly have to re-jigger it. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

It's true that the rules don't really support 'extended test' toxins (not quite like Diseases, either), but it sounds like a possible good mechanic anyway. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[kzt]

Edit: as an aside the drug/toxin rules in SR are retarded because they make arbitrary distinctions where there really are none. Treating drugs and toxins differently creates silly situations, and this is (another) good example.

In general it appears that SR developers have always worked hard to assign rule sections to people who have absolutely no understanding or experience with whatever the rules they are writing covers. Whether it is drugs or guns.

[SpellBinder]

What about repeated dosing while the drug/toxin is still in effect, or a double or triple sized dose? A triple shot of Breathless could call for three tests against it's Power 8, and the resulting stun damage overflowing into the physical track can result in death.

And I do agree that the separate distinction between drugs & toxins is rather chunky.

[kzt]

You'll likely need to figure out a power level that's a good balance between effective yet survivable. Heck, EMT's use it for intubation since even if the intubation fails, it typically wears off before they suffocate.

Hell no. If you blow RSI they are going to be completely screwed if you are not effectively mask ventilating them the entire time. 7-10 minutes is serious anorexia, likely fatal, almost certain to have serious impact on their brain.

[Yerameyahu]

The rules for stronger doses/overdoses are even worse than the rest of the toxin rules (because they don't exist). (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) We have a lame pragraph on 'Concentration' that basically says, 'the GM can bump the Power, maybe'. As such, triple Breathtaker *wouldn't* do what SpellBinder just suggested (3 tests).

While the whole drug/toxin thing is an issue, *this* isn't a good example at all. No one would take this 'drug' on purpose to gain an edge or have fun, so it's 100% a Toxin in SR4.

[SpellBinder]

Thought you mentioned something about an insane power level previously, so I suggested something different. Guess I'll just let this thread hang from here on out.

[Irion]

Yeah, the drug, toxin and desease rules suck. Was thinking a bit about them, but it is hard to come up with rules which are streamlined, realistic and still fun to play with...

[Umidori]

Quick question, don't have my books available at the moment, why is it resisted with Reaction? Wouldn't the logical assumption be Body? I mean, it's not like you're trying to dodge the paralysis, it's already in your system, the only defense at that point is your constitution, how well your body resists the paralyzing functions.

I guess the idea is that once it's in, they're "Paralyzed", but only so long as the power exceeds their reaction - or ability to keep moving despite paralysis? But the effect we're concerned with is the "drowning", basically the lung failure. I mean, I could see reaction being used to see if you could keep walking or running in spite of your legs being paralyzed, but this is your lungs for goodness sake! How can that be Reaction? It's clearly Body, no?

~Umidori

[Method]

In general it appears that SR developers have always worked hard to assign rule sections to people who have absolutely no understanding or experience with whatever the rules they are writing covers. Whether it is drugs or guns.

I'm hoping to change that soon.

While the whole drug/toxin thing is an issue, *this* isn't a good example at all. No one would take this 'drug' on purpose to gain an edge or have fun, so it's 100% a Toxin in SR4.

Only because there are no rules for the use of this drug in its non-toxic role in routine anesthesia. If you want the equivalent cannon example consider this: whats to prevent any player from using the paralytic "drug" Slab to neutralize enemies without allowing any save? Sure it won't kill them, but by cannon you get no save against a "drug" right?

[Eratosthenes]

Ideally everything, from novacoke to Gamma-Scopoline, would be treated as a toxin. Something along the lines of:

PEPPER PUNCH
Vector: Contact, Inhalation
Speed: 1 Combat Turn
Penetration: 0
Power: 7
Effect: Nausea, (Power)S Damage
Duration: 10 minutes (200 Combat Turns)

<<blah blah blah>>

CRAM
Vector: Inhalation, Injected
Speed: 1 Combat Turn
Penetration: 0
Power: 12
Duration: (Power) Hours
Effect: +1 Reaction, +1 Initiative Pass, Crash: (Power/2)S (Unresisted)

<<blah blah blah>>

Where Crash is how much damage is taken after the effects where off.

[Method]

Agreed. They should just get rid of the whole "drugs are helpful / toxins are harmful" paradigm. They should just say this is compound x and these are the effects (like you have done).

[Yerameyahu]

Method, Slab was *always* a Toxin to me. No one uses Slab for fun or gain; pharmaceutical never equaled 'drug' in SR4. Simple. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) Like I said, it is an issue… just not here. I agree with Eratosthenes: the easiest way is to make everything Toxin-like.

Umidori, it's not resisted with Reaction. It's resisted with Body, and the remaining Power has to be more than Reaction. No, I don't really know why. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) Apparently, your reflexes speed determines how hard it is to paralyze you. Science!

SpellBinder, huh? Who said what when? I agree that there's a well known 'problem' with dosage in SR4 drugs/toxins, just not that a triple dose of Breathtaker would cause 3 tests at once. (In the same way, a burst of S&S doesn't cause 3 6S tests, for good or ill.)

[kzt]

I'm hoping to change that soon.

That would be very nice.

And how the heck do you have time to do all this anyhow?

[Method]

And how the heck do you have time to do all this anyhow?

Well, when you spend a few years working 100 to 120 hours a week, you get good at making time to do the things you love.