Karma Generation finally updated in Runners Companion PDF :-) Options

[Irion]

@Thanee
You are correct. Thats the only way to read the paragraph without running into an contradiction. A lot of people do notlike it that way, because they feel, that free spirits would be underpowered. I do not agree with either.

@Yerameyahu
Why?
If you play it by minimum=2 max=force it seems quite playable to me. Yes, it starts off quite week.

There are just a few minior issues:
1. Make the formula pact give the spirit normal Karma gain, but prevent any other form of Karma income or spirit pact.
2. Streamline the vision thing. There are several kinds of visions. There is no need for a "special spirit vision". If they only have astral vision by default, state it like that!
3. Adjust and clarify some powers. (realistic form, I am looking at you. Otherwise it is mostly about dropping the costs a bit... (Regeneration 4, Aura masking 2.5 etc.) (Or choose a type of spirit and give him reduced costs for the power this spirit type may take. 20-25% like the way of adepts)

[Thanee]

"This attribute Force determines a free spirit’s natural minimums and maximums for all attributes." is a complete self-contained sentence. Nothing in the paragraph ever contradicts this.

That is correct.

That sentence also does not say, that the minimum attributes are equal to Force.

All it says is, that Force determines the natural minimums and maximums.

For example, by setting the minimums to "starting Force" and the maximums to "actual Force", both are determined by Force.

This reading is further underlined by the fact, that only the maximums are said to increase when Force is increased.

And by the fact that it even speaks about minimums and maximums, which would be rather pointless, if they were equal at all times.

Bye
Thanee

[_Pax._]

What Thanee said.

IMO, if all attributes were intended to be equal to Force at all times, I think it would read more like this instead:

"This attribute, Force, determines a free spirit’s attributes."

[Neraph]

That is correct.

That sentence also does not say, that the minimum attributes are equal to Force.

All it says is, that Force determines the natural minimums and maximums.

For example, by setting the minimums to "starting Force" and the maximums to "actual Force", both are determined by Force.

This reading is further underlined by the fact, that only the maximums are said to increase when Force is increased.

And by the fact that it even speaks about minimums and maximums, which would be rather pointless, if they were equal at all times.

Bye
Thanee

Flat wrong. "This attribute [Force] determines a free spirit's natural minimums and maximums for all attributes." Nowhere in there does it say "only at the beginning of character creation," nor is there a section where it talks about "setting minimums to 'starting Force'" - you've added that in yourself. It actually states, with no ambiguity whatsoever, that the spirit's Force determines their natural minimums. Period. That means if their Force changes, their natural minimums changes as well. No other sentence that follows contradicts this - in fact, they tend to support this: "... so the player must raise Force if he wishes to raise the remaining attributes," for example.

[Irion]

@Neraph
Yeah, it just tallks about raising the attributes seperatly. Well..

I mean it is even said, that the spirits minimum force determins the minimum for the attributes and the spirits current force is the maximum for the attributes... Don't know how they could have made it any more obvious..

[_Pax._]

But, Neraph, when it discusses raising force, it mentions ONLY the maximums:

"A free spirit’s Force rating is the natural maximum for all Physical and Mental attributes, as well as its Edge attribute—so the player must raise Force if he wishes to raise the remaining attributes."

Face it: the whole section is worded just vaguely enough, there's room for interpretation. CGL should really come out and clarify the intent - they need to make a new FAQ that answers questions like this one, directly and in no uncertain terms.

[KarmaInferno]

Hmm. It says "the attribute determines", but does it mean the attribute in general, or the current rating of the attribute?




-k

[Neraph]

But, Neraph, when it discusses raising force, it mentions ONLY the maximums:

"A free spirit’s Force rating is the natural maximum for all Physical and Mental attributes, as well as its Edge attribute—so the player must raise Force if he wishes to raise the remaining attributes."

Face it: the whole section is worded just vaguely enough, there's room for interpretation. CGL should really come out and clarify the intent - they need to make a new FAQ that answers questions like this one, directly and in no uncertain terms.

No. That sentence does not preclude the earlier sentence that states their Force is also their natural minimum. Logically, if their attributes are equal to force, then to raise any attribute you would have to raise Force in order to raise the others. There is no contradiction, only people who don't want it to function as written.

[_Pax._]

And I say, Neraph, that people who think raising just Force will also raise all the other attributes only want it to function that way. (And that way trips my Munchkin Alarm in a gigantic way - raising everything, for the cost of only raising one attribute? I know Karma can be a bit hardr to come by for Free Spirits, but it can't be difficult enough to justify that kind of thing ...!!

..

Seriously, I read that and don't see "all attributes = force". I see "All attributes have a minimum of 2 and a maximum of Force". I accept, however, that the alternate interpretation is not unreasonable. Ergo, why I feel CGL needs to issue an official clarification.

SR4A, the whole edition not just the core book, needs a Master FAQ.

[almost normal]

And I say, Neraph, that people who think raising just Force will also raise all the other attributes only want it to function that way. (And that way trips my Munchkin Alarm in a gigantic way - raising everything, for the cost of only raising one attribute? I know Karma can be a bit hardr to come by for Free Spirits, but it can't be difficult enough to justify that kind of thing ...!!

Completely correct. Couldn't agree more.

[Caadium]

Back to the original topic, did they just change the cost of attributes for character generation, or did they also address racial cost in the karma gen section?

To those of you rehashing the same old free spirit attribute argument, please go revive one of the many free spirit threads were this conversation has already been had or start a new one. Some of these circular semantic arguments are the reason I go away for long periods. I can't tell you how many threads have been hijacked by things like free spirit attributes, the difference/validity of faqs/erratas, etc. If someone that hasn't seen these redundant conversations before asks about it, please just point to one of the MANY previous ones and move that discussion there.

The simple fact is that, Rules as Written isn't always as clear as some people would like, if it was people wouldn't argue about them. There are a number of questions, with Free Spirit PC Attributes being one, that will not be solved until CGL actually does it. No amount of thread hijacking will change this.

[Thanee]

Back to the original topic, did they just change the cost of attributes for character generation, or did they also address racial cost in the karma gen section?

Yes, the metatype cost has also been added.

Metatypes now cost their BP cost in Karma.

Bye
Thanee