Ally Question, Can you have an ally shapechange? Options

[Tashiro]

A player has summoned an ally, and had it possess a plasteel 'golem'. Now, the spirit knows Shapechange, does this allow it to transform into an organic creature? And can it then use heal on itself while in this form? I'm... dubious... but if it is 'legit', then I'm willing to allow it. Still, I'm really curious.

[pbangarth]

I'm not clear. Is he trying to shapechange the golem too? That doesn't work. It requires a voluntary subject. The spirit itself may be voluntary, but the object it is possessing is not. "This spell does not transform clothing and equipment." (SR4A, page 211)

[Neraph]

The Heal spell cannot affect inorganic materials - therefore, the dual-natured entity created by the possession cannot be healed because it shares a health track.

There's no debate whether or not a spirit can Shapechange. A dual-natured entity, though, can - as long as it is willing. There is nothing in the spell description that prevents this. The spirit, however, will not have access to the Powers of the golem while in animal form, as those are a result of inorganic materials and should not be available just as cyberware/bioware is not available to everyone else. I bet the player's intent was to get a spirit with high stats in animal form that had high armor and a high damage natural weapon on top.

There are better ways to do that.

[Dakka Dakka]

The Heal spell cannot affect inorganic materials - therefore, the dual-natured entity created by the possession cannot be healed because it shares a health track.

Care to quote this rule? I know of no special rule stating how to remove damage from the combined entity, nor do I know whether the Heal spell or First Aid would work on spirits. So AFAIK it is pretty much up to the GM what works an what doesn't.

[Neraph]

Care to quote this rule? I know of no special rule stating how to remove damage from the combined entity, nor do I know whether the Heal spell or First Aid would work on spirits. So AFAIK it is pretty much up to the GM what works an what doesn't.

Dangit, was almost done and accidentally closed the window....

Heal is a mana spell (SR4A, page 208, Heal spell description). Mana spells "affect... the target in a magical and spiritual way that is only effectively resisted by the Willpower of a living or magical being," (SR4A, page 203, Spell Characteristics, Type, emphasis mine). Possessing spirits create a new dual-natured creature (Street Magic, pages 95 [Spirits and Vessels], 101 [Possession], and 102 [Possession and Vessels sidebar]).

So what I should have said was "Yes, you can heal a possessing spirit, regardless of what they are possessing." I balk at the idea of healing a car, but it is permissible with the rules as they are written (so long as it's a possessed car).

[Dakka Dakka]

So what I should have said was "Yes, you can heal a possessing spirit, regardless of what they are possessing." I balk at the idea of healing a car, but it is permissible with the rules as they are written (so long as it's a possessed car).

That's the way I recall it as well.

[Neraph]

Funny thing is that I woke up this morning and looked at what I had said and went "Why did I say that?"

[pbangarth]

Funny thing is that I woke up this morning and looked at what I had said and went "Why did I say that?"

Geez... the story of my life.

[UmaroVI]

I think what he wants to do is have the spirit run around as a Plasteel Golem normally, and when it takes damage, shapechange into an organic form and Heal itself. You can skip the Shapechange.

[Irion]

Well, I guess a little bird is also much better to hide, than a plasteel golem...

[Falconer]

Strongly disagree with Neraph and others... misreading of the rules. The possessing spirit should be allowed neither to shapechange nor to heal. The rules are entirely grey on the subject of healing and viability of the targets leaving it up to GM discretion. And I HIGHLY suggest NOT allowing it for any kind of possession, the mechanic is already highly broken (and I heavily suggest inexperienced GM's outright ban it from PC's to limit abuse and keep their games from devolving from Shadowrun to Magicrun), extending it's limits into grey areas is something I do not suggest doing. If you allow possession of any form, you'll find yourself running into MANY grey areas not covered with ambiguous outcomes which are purely a matter of GM preference.

There would be no question of some of this if your spirit simply possessed a bum off the streets and shapechanged it... or possessed your pet dog. In which case, the rules make it explicit, the possessed subject is treated as unwilling... the plasteel body is an object so I don't think that's a good skirt around the willing requirement. (why not try 'shape plasteel' instead.)


Possession & Services: "(the vessel reverts to its state prior to possession, except for any damage incurred, which it retains)." Damage section... makes it clear that damage is inflicted on both. Healing is NEVER covered though leaving it very grey. Healing is not considered 'negative damage' ever anywhere in the rules and is handled seperately from damage in all cases.

Even an a more extraordinary power like free spirit regeneration only allows it to regenerate a living or prior living vessel and doesn't magically restore a car. ("to it's living form")


The section on P101, expressly refers to p102/103 sidebars for details of this.

The damage section at the end, makes it clear that both entities effectively retain independent damage tracks. Nowhere are immunities of one form granted to the other. The nature of the system is that any damage inflicted is inflicted on both of them... And there are other problems this rule doesn't address... such as stun damage... vehicles and objects are immune to it, but spirits aren't. The only graceful way I've found to handle this is to effectively inflict the stun on the spirit's combined form but ignore it when it seperates since the body is immune to it. (raises interesting questions with say electronics... if the spirit possesses a smartgun and it gets hit with electricity... does it the gun shutdown per the normal electricity rules and reboot! while the spirit suffers stun). Physical damage though would be carried by both forms upon seperation. Infliction of damage is covered, healing of it is never addressed in the entire section.


As a GM I highly suggest that you instead point the player in the direction of much more suitable spells. The main one being 'repair object' and 'shape plasteel'. Which would allow something very similar though at higher casting thresholds without bending the rules into a pretzel. It also puts a little more cost on possession which helps to keep it in line.

If you're insistent on allowing heal to function... then I suggest putting in some kind of limitation such as, you must beat the object resistance of the vessel to heal it (like a repair object spell would). Something again the rules never make it explicit whether they stay or go away...

[Dakka Dakka]

Well, I guess a little bird is also much better to hide, than a plasteel golem...

Unless it's a BOD 1-3 Plasteel Golem, shapechanging into a little birdie probably won't work (I don't have the actual stats for little birdies, assumming BOD 1).

[ikarinokami]

no heal won't work. heal only effect's living things. street magic divides non-living vs living vessels.

the mage would have to use the FIX spell. which is just heal for non living material.

[Yerameyahu]

The idea is that the result of possession is a single entity, which is 'living'. Yes, as always, it's better to ignore whether or not this is RAW and just play how you know is right. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[Neraph]

[ Spoiler ]

disagree with Neraph and others... misreading of the rules. The possessing spirit should be allowed neither to shapechange nor to heal. The rules are entirely grey on the subject of healing and viability of the targets leaving it up to GM discretion. And I HIGHLY suggest NOT allowing it for any kind of possession, the mechanic is already highly broken (and I heavily suggest inexperienced GM's outright ban it from PC's to limit abuse and keep their games from devolving from Shadowrun to Magicrun), extending it's limits into grey areas is something I do not suggest doing. If you allow possession of any form, you'll find yourself running into MANY grey areas not covered with ambiguous outcomes which are purely a matter of GM preference.

There would be no question of some of this if your spirit simply possessed a bum off the streets and shapechanged it... or possessed your pet dog. In which case, the rules make it explicit, the possessed subject is treated as unwilling... the plasteel body is an object so I don't think that's a good skirt around the willing requirement. (why not try 'shape plasteel' instead.)


Possession & Services: "(the vessel reverts to its state prior to possession, except for any damage incurred, which it retains)." Damage section... makes it clear that damage is inflicted on both. Healing is NEVER covered though leaving it very grey. Healing is not considered 'negative damage' ever anywhere in the rules and is handled seperately from damage in all cases.

Even an a more extraordinary power like free spirit regeneration only allows it to regenerate a living or prior living vessel and doesn't magically restore a car. ("to it's living form")


The section on P101, expressly refers to p102/103 sidebars for details of this.

The damage section at the end, makes it clear that both entities effectively retain independent damage tracks. Nowhere are immunities of one form granted to the other. The nature of the system is that any damage inflicted is inflicted on both of them... And there are other problems this rule doesn't address... such as stun damage... vehicles and objects are immune to it, but spirits aren't. The only graceful way I've found to handle this is to effectively inflict the stun on the spirit's combined form but ignore it when it seperates since the body is immune to it. (raises interesting questions with say electronics... if the spirit possesses a smartgun and it gets hit with electricity... does it the gun shutdown per the normal electricity rules and reboot! while the spirit suffers stun). Physical damage though would be carried by both forms upon seperation. Infliction of damage is covered, healing of it is never addressed in the entire section.


As a GM I highly suggest that you instead point the player in the direction of much more suitable spells. The main one being 'repair object' and 'shape plasteel'. Which would allow something very similar though at higher casting thresholds without bending the rules into a pretzel. It also puts a little more cost on possession which helps to keep it in line.

If you're insistent on allowing heal to function... then I suggest putting in some kind of limitation such as, you must beat the object resistance of the vessel to heal it (like a repair object spell would). Something again the rules never make it explicit whether they stay or go away...

I'm trying to figure out in that rambling post where you stopped reading the rules. I think it was close to the beginning. You can disagree with the RAW all you want, but when I quote rules and refer to specific pages you'd best not say I "misread" the rules, nor should you call rules you don't like "grey." (IMG:style_emoticons/default/vegm.gif)

[Irion]

@Neraph
As a matter of fact, he is correct, Neraph.


The problem is, that the health tracks are not really merged. For example you may heal the vessel with first aid, but the spirit will still be damaged.
The damage track is only shared for damage sustained, not healing.

Physical damage inflicted during possession
is tracked as a single entity. If the spirit and
vessel separate, both retain the full amount of
damage they’ve taken while joined (cumulative
with any previous damage).

It says NOTHING about healing.

There are several instances in the book, which flesh out, that the one in runners Companion

First aid and medicine and medicine do not work on spirits,
although they may work on a possessed vessel. Any healing
or repair given to a vessel applies only to that vessel’s Condition
Monitor, and not to the spirit’s.

So here is still a destinction between spirit and vessel. (Not everything which heals the spirit is able to heal the vessel. And since the health spell is unable to repair a car...)

Combine this with this fact:

If the spirit or the vessel
has already sustained damage, that damage
stays with them, though only the greater set of
combined wound penalties apply during possession.

You somehow tend to oversee the limitations...

@Yerameyahu

The idea is that the result of possession is a single entity, which is 'living'. Yes, as always, it's better to ignore whether or not this is RAW and just play how you know is right.

Thats true only for damage, NOT for healing.

[The Jopp]

Spirit possessing vehicle/inanimate object
You need to cast two spells
1: Heal for the spirits damage
2: Fix [vs object resistance] to repair the object

Spirit possessing living being
Heal should affect both the body and the spirit

Well, my interpretation of it.

[Yerameyahu]

It's not *my* idea, Irion. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) (My idea was, 'do what's right regardless of the RAW'.) That page 93 quote is nice, though, thanks.

[Irion]

@Yerameyahu
Just pointing out that in this case "do what's right" is quite RAW. As much RAW as possible in this section of the rules...

[Neraph]

What you've quoted is that you cannot use First Aid or Medicine on spirits - which I never claimed you could. I've only said that the Heal spell works, and quoted rules as to why. Additionally, the rules you've quoted seem to indicate damage prior to the possession, which is a topic I never brought up. So you are correct, and I am correct, because we are talking about and quoting rules regarding different aspects of possession.

[Irion]

@Neraph
No, you did not. Spirit on vessel only share damage, not healing.
Falconer is right that it is a grey area, because it is only stated that healing of the vessel does not heal the spirit (if it is not fitting).
If healing of the spirit would also heal the vessel, is not stated directly. But since there is no Rule telling it does, I would not assume it.
Espacially after the opposide direktion is specifically denied.

So a healing spell would heal the spirit, but not the car. The wound modifiers would be calculated on object/subject which has accumilated the most damage.

Additionally, the rules you've quoted seem to indicate damage prior to the possession

Partly true. One does. The others don't. The point is, that the rules do not say how it has to be handled during possession. Those are the only rules to fall back on.

(The other possible interpretation would be, that you can't heal a spirit possessing a car with the heal spell. This would correspond to the rules too. )

There are several possibilities:
1. You can heal with a heal-spell the spirit and the car. (Problem: No statement in the rules, that it works this way.)
2. You can heal the spirit but not the car. (Again no direct statement, but it would be the reverse rule of "healing the vessel without the spirit")
3. You can't cast heal at a possessed car. (The most robust interpretation by RAW. Healing can't effect "dead material", to heal both you would need to affect "dead material" so it does not work, because there are no rules for only healing the spirit)

So your first guess, was the right one after all...

[darthmord]

I would have to say that while it may make sense on the surface that you cannot heal a car possessed by a spirit, it does make sense that you can heal the car.

Why?

Because for the duration of the possession, it is no longer a car or a spirit. It is a combined entity. A much stronger case could be made such that this line of reasoning only applies to an Inhabited vessel as Inhabitation is a permanent change as opposed to Possession being a temporary thing.

I also have to say that in the past when it has come up in any game I was running, I always followed that Possession required separate healing/repair. You could repair the vessel (by a Heal spell or Fix/Repair as appropriate for its type) and also heal the Spirit.

[ikarinokami]

@Neraph
No, you did not. Spirit on vessel only share damage, not healing.
Falconer is right that it is a grey area, because it is only stated that healing of the vessel does not heal the spirit (if it is not fitting).
If healing of the spirit would also heal the vessel, is not stated directly. But since there is no Rule telling it does, I would not assume it.
Espacially after the opposide direktion is specifically denied.

So a healing spell would heal the spirit, but not the car. The wound modifiers would be calculated on object/subject which has accumilated the most damage.


Partly true. One does. The others don't. The point is, that the rules do not say how it has to be handled during possession. Those are the only rules to fall back on.

(The other possible interpretation would be, that you can't heal a spirit possessing a car with the heal spell. This would correspond to the rules too. )

There are several possibilities:
1. You can heal with a heal-spell the spirit and the car. (Problem: No statement in the rules, that it works this way.)
2. You can heal the spirit but not the car. (Again no direct statement, but it would be the reverse rule of "healing the vessel without the spirit")
3. You can't cast heal at a possessed car. (The most robust interpretation by RAW. Healing can't effect "dead material", to heal both you would need to affect "dead material" so it does not work, because there are no rules for only healing the spirit)

So your first guess, was the right one after all...

I don't think the heal spell would work on spirits for the same reason first aid and medicine don't. Spirits are not living creatures, they don't have biological systems that can be repaired. if first aid which is argueably better than heal, because it can heal both stun and physical damage, i dont see why a heal spell would work were first aid wouldnt.

[Yerameyahu]

Because for the duration of the possession, it is no longer a car or a spirit. It is a combined entity.

Yes, this is the argument. Whether that's a *good* or correct argument (or, if you're a heretic like me, a *desirable* state of affairs) remains to be seen. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) I think many people would prefer a SR world where possession (in stark contrast to inhabitation) doesn't create a combined entity for the purposes of this issue.

[Irion]

I would have to say that while it may make sense on the surface that you cannot heal a car possessed by a spirit, it does make sense that you can heal the car.

Why?

Because for the duration of the possession, it is no longer a car or a spirit. It is a combined entity. A much stronger case could be made such that this line of reasoning only applies to an Inhabited vessel as Inhabitation is a permanent change as opposed to Possession being a temporary thing.

I also have to say that in the past when it has come up in any game I was running, I always followed that Possession required separate healing/repair. You could repair the vessel (by a Heal spell or Fix/Repair as appropriate for its type) and also heal the Spirit.

The problem is, that your general argument is directly contradicted by the rules. If every effect would work on the vessel AND the spirit, you could heal the spirit by applying first aid to a living vessel. But this is not possible. The entire healing is not combined.

The point is, possession is a generally fucked up thing anyway. (As is realistic form)
It does work for as long as you just stick to the "standart" cases. As soon as you overstep...