Dilemma, Build advice / suggestions please Options

[Caadium]

I've got an interesting situation. I'm introducing a new group to Shadowrun. Up til now, I've been player in a couple of different games run by various members, and for the most part things go well. There is one player, however, that has zero interest in actually role-playing, but instead just prefers to come up with total min-maxed combat builds for games. The rest of the group is putting together more well rounded characters, and so are not a problem.

Here is my dilemma. The player mentioned above basically wants to make a combat mage, I also suggested a totally cybered samurai to him. However, since he doesn't know the system well, he's attempting something that won't really succeed well in that capacity. This means that he likely won't have fun, and will do his best to drag the rest of the group away from Shadowrun. So far, he's resisted my advice about what he tried to put together. In order for this game to succeed with this group, I need to find a way to keep him interested and give him something he'll like playing, but without blowing the power structure out of the water for the rest of the group. I know I could take the hard-nosed approach of, "I tried to tell you that wouldn't work," but that doesn't help the rest of the group have fun as he tries to drag the game down.

I think my best bet is to present him with a few characters and tell him, "I see what you were trying to make, and I am worried that the way you have tried you will find it isn't going to work as well as you think. Here are a few examples of what I think you were trying to do. You don't have to use any of them, but you can if you like, but hopefully they can give you some ideas to better create the character you were going for."

I've got some ideas of my own, but I'd be curious to see a couple of options from the DS community. At it's core, we are talking about a combat mage, he seems hooked on Chaos mage with no mentor spirit. Because I'm trying to get his character viable, but on a comparable level of the rest of the party, I would like to keep the character's top tier dice pool(s) to the 12-15 dice range, and I don't want to do a power focus.

What I would really like to give him is some sample pure combat mages, and some samples of augmented combat mages.

Thanks.

[Stahlseele]

Have you tried telling him WHY it does not work like that and how what he wants WOULD work? O.o

[Grinchy McScroog...]

I know it seems a little cold, but is there any reason you can't just boot him if he becomes a problem and refuses to get his act together? Or is he intrinsically tied into the group somehow?

[Caadium]

Have you tried telling him WHY it does not work like that and how what he wants WOULD work? O.o

Yes, I have.

Basically, this is a guy that thinks he knows everything, likes to do things his way, and has in the past used tantrums to make sure that things go his way. When I, and others, tried to show him how some of the things he was thinking didn't work he just chose to talk over us and ignore us; something he often does if he feels someone is telling him he's wrong. I'm actually not very fond of him, but as I'm the newer guy in the group and I do enjoy playing with the rest of the members of the group, I'm just trying to find a way to help him enjoy himself enough that he doesn't try to kill Shadowrun for everyone else. If I didn't have to think of how it would affect the other players, I would simply say let him fail then rebuild something once he saw first hand how it didn't work since he didn't listen, but as I mentioned in past games instead of learning and rerolling he's whined enough to kill games. One other player in the group has a personal loyalty to this guy, otherwise everyone else would have gotten rid of him before.

This is why I want to give him a few so that in his mind he can be the man behind the power of his character, something important to him which is why I know he won't play any of the examples I give him. Higher dice pools will be something that appeal to him and give him a reason to actually look at it. If he knew the system, he'd be someone to try making things like pornomancers, or augmented adept shiva arm machin-gun gun bunnies, or other ridiculous one-trick pony concepts that have large dice pools.

As I said, the dilemma is trying to give him examples, but not get him trying totally over the top right now. If I can give him examples in the 15 dice pool range he'll be something of a badass in the group, able to get some things done, but not totally over the top compared to the rest of the group.

[Dr.Rockso]

How about you give his character a test drive? Present him with situations that are likely to arise, and have him play a few of them out. If they don't go how he likes, offer to help him improve his character.

Or just give everyone the option to respec after a couple of sessions.

[Critias]

How about you give his character a test drive? Present him with situations that are likely to arise, and have him play a few of them out. If they don't go how he likes, offer to help him improve his character.

Or just give everyone the option to respec after a couple of sessions.

This is fairly common practice (in my experience) whether someone's this sort of problem-player diva or not. Folks who're new to a game should get a few sessions of "test drives," in my opinion, to help them (and the GM, for that matter!) learn what they're capable of, to see how their stats meet their concept, etc, etc. Heck, even Missions campaigns let you change stuff after your first session, y'know?

So let the guy play with his character as-is. Run 'em through Food Fight or some other fairly shallow, combat-heavy, stuff and let him see whether his mage is any good. Then, offer to help him with a few tweaks to make it a better character, if that's what you think is needed (and if he's had his eyes opened).

[Darksong]

Personally, I always prefer to address these sorts of things with the advantage of having their character in-hand. That way I can keep the feedback focused on actual points/issues with the build and not as high-level amorphous suggestions.

Also, the character creation process can be an educational one, so if he's already willing to make his own character, take advantage of that, he might be more receptive after trying it for himself.

[_Pax._]

As I said, the dilemma is trying to give him examples, but not get him trying totally over the top right now. If I can give him examples in the 15 dice pool range he'll be something of a badass in the group, able to get some things done, but not totally over the top compared to the rest of the group.

It's distinctly on the exotic side, and my original concept was for a Healer, not a combat Mage ... but I do have a Pixie spellslinger with DPs of 10 for spellcasting and 14-16 for drain. (7 Will, 7 Charisma, Shamanic tradition).

[Caadium]

Yes, I have every intention of allowing players to tweak and adjust what they are doing.

Yes, I understand that this is an opportunity to try to teach the system, and having something in hand is key, that is why I'm looking for ideas to have in hand (along with his original idea).

I'm not looking for social solutions. I've gamed with this guy before, and I've gotten input from the other players and gms in this group as to the best way to help him out.

The fact is, he isn't the kind of guy to adjust if things aren't working well and won't want to rebuild or make a new character; he'll simply give up on the system and then try to drag the group down. If he see's things as working, just not quite according to plan, then he's willing to adjust. This is why I need to help make sure he's got a character that can work, even if it doesn't wind up being exact at first, rather than let him totally struggle through a bad test drive. I'm looking to create the balance of helping him up front with what he wants to play so that he is then willing to adjust if things aren't quite what was expected.

I appreciate the ideas, but these are things I've considered. This is why I'm looking for somewhat tweaked up, but not totally overpowered, build ideas.

[Dr.Rockso]

Alright, can you give us what he's got right now so we have something to work with? It sounds like you'd have the best luck making a design thats very similar to his(albeit effective), so he ends up feeling like he contributed.

[Critias]

This is why I'm looking for somewhat tweaked up, but not totally overpowered, build ideas.

Well, it's tough to tweak what we haven't seen yet, which is why all we're offering is vague philosophical advice. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[thorya]

It might not be a problem. Combat mages tend to be fairly effective even if they're not super min/maxed. What is he doing that is making the character so ineffective?
There's a list of characters somewhere on here that might be helpful, I forget who made them.
Edit: Search UmaroVI his list of archetypes might be helpful.

[Yerameyahu]

That, Critias, and our natural reaction is revulsion to the idea that the non-awful people all have to sacrificially accommodate this one person's total dysfunction. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

What's the *best-case* scenario here? He does zero roleplaying, but is quietly effective (super-effective, because he *only* likes minmaxing) so that he manages not to ruin it for everyone else? And someday he ceases to exist? :/ (This is fine if it's true. We all understand the difficulty of roleplaying-group-management. I'm just checking what you're going for.)

[_Pax._]

Honestly, my response would be to give him the boot - and if the one player who is personally loyal to Mr. Problem goes too?

Sometimes, to get rid of a cancer, you have to cut away some HEALTHY flesh, too.

[Yerameyahu]

It seems like that's not an option, though. So I'm just asking if the goal is to keep him happy and quiet, or if he's trying to actually fix him (subtly).

[Caadium]

What's the *best-case* scenario here? He does zero roleplaying, but is quietly effective (super-effective, because he *only* likes minmaxing) so that he manages not to ruin it for everyone else? And someday he ceases to exist? :/ (This is fine if it's true. We all understand the difficulty of roleplaying-group-management. I'm just checking what you're going for.)

This! Almost exactly. Just without the "someday he ceases to exist" part since he's part of this particular established group.



Let me finish tweaking what it is that he has already started and I'll post it.

What I was hoping to get were some other effective combat mage builds that I could use as an example so that he could see viable ways to get what he's looking for. This type of min/maxing isn't natural for me, so I came looking for other ideas. I wasn't specifically looking for how to tweak what he tried to put together, but instead for alternatives I could give him so that he could see ways to minmax to his own flavor.

[Critias]

I've tried to stop making "give 'em the boot" my initial advice in this sort of situation, because social groups are complicated things. We're only getting one side of the story, we're only getting that side while someone's upset (or at least frustrated) about something, we don't know how the rest of the group gets along with the troublemaker-guy, and we do know just how many gamers have some real issues with real-life social confrontations. Telling someone to cut a gamer out of their campaign may be telling them to get rid of, like, 20% of their actual face-to-face human friends, y'know? It might not be the right thing to do, it might be really tough for them, if they do it the whole campaign might blow up in a drama nuke, and even if it all works out, the odds are good they've lost a friend (or at least acquaintance). It's easy to suggest that a person be cut from someone's life like a cancerous tumor, but...well...for some folks, it just ain't an option, or at least it's surely not a feasible one.

So, y'know. Yeah. I try to leave that part just sort of left unsaid, like the last-ditch response it should be, and try to offer other advice, first. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[Caadium]

I've tried to stop making "give 'em the boot" my initial advice in this sort of situation, because social groups are complicated things. We're only getting one side of the story, we're only getting that side while someone's upset (or at least frustrated) about something, we don't know how the rest of the group gets along with the troublemaker-guy, and we do know just how many gamers have some real issues with real-life social confrontations. Telling someone to cut a gamer out of their campaign may be telling them to get rid of, like, 20% of their actual face-to-face human friends, y'know? It might not be the right thing to do, it might be really tough for them, if they do it the whole campaign might blow up in a drama nuke, and even if it all works out, the odds are good they've lost a friend (or at least acquaintance). It's easy to suggest that a person be cut from someone's life like a cancerous tumor, but...well...for some folks, it just ain't an option, or at least it's surely not a feasible one.

So, y'know. Yeah. I try to leave that part just sort of left unsaid, like the last-ditch response it should be, and try to offer other advice, first. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Please understand, I'm not upset or frustrated right now. I actually concur with you, and I'm just trying to be proactive to prevent a problem. Yes, you only have my side of the story, but hopefully you see that what I'm trying to do is prevent a potential conflict.

I actually tend to agree with you completely that saying just cut them is often not the answer and not one that will work in this case. I don't know this player's other social circles, but he does fit into the awkward gamer personality type. I have tried to stress, that I didn't come looking for ways to deal with the social issue or conflict with another gamer. I specifically am looking for samples I can use to help make things work better for everyone. The only reason I gave any background is because I know that many of the people here, and in other gaming communities, have dealt with players that just want to min/max and can be a bit challenging at times; this is the information most relevant to anyone that might have a sample that I can use since I know that many of the people here have played with people that have a similar approach to gaming.

[Critias]

Please understand, I'm not upset or frustrated right now. I actually concur with you, and I'm just trying to be proactive to prevent a problem. Yes, you only have my side of the story, but hopefully you see that what I'm trying to do is prevent a potential conflict.

Oh, no, no. No. It's cool. I'm not calling you out specifically, or anything like that. I was just explaining why I try not to respond to any sort of thread like this with "fuck it, cut the bastard." Or, at least, why I try not to any more. I'll cheerfully concede that culling someone from a gaming group often is the right answer (my own gaming circle did so, less than a year ago), but I was just sharing why I, personally, try to make it, like, my second or third suggestion, not my first, when it comes up on forums.

"Nuke it" shouldn't necessarily be the first response to a problem, after all. So I try to go out of my way -- in this thread, or any other -- to offer some other stuff, and leave the "...or they're out of the group" as the "or else" after all else has failed.

[Darksong]

yeah, didn't mean to be unhelpful. the only combat mage build I have in my dossier currently is a power focus build (which I actually rolled for a very similar social situation )wherein the player still managed to knock out with drain in the first round of his first combat because he went back and nerfed his own drain attribute for some reason and then thought THROW FIREBALZ was a legit strat))

[_Pax._]

Well, just give us a quick run-down of the characte he built - did he pick a specific metatype, for example? (There's aleague of differnce between an Elf combat mage, and an Ork or Troll combat mage). Doesn't have to be the whole build ... just some of the thematic high points, so we can get with his overall style.

And, how about some limits from your end? D'you care if some of the builds slid your way are Infected? What about a Drake, or a Shifter? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Yerameyahu]

Oh, god, give the confused non-roleplay player an exotic race/subrace? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

[_Pax._]

Eh. He's not going to RP much any way you look at it. So honestly, being a Shifter (with "uncouth" - hey, free points for the non-RPer) would let his lack of RP actually BE roleplay. Similarly, a taciturn, aloof Ghoul mage would turn his non-RP into "appropriate IC behavior".

And the min-maxer in him should appreciate all the mechanical benefits, especially attribute bonusses. The physical attribute bonusses would let him "cheap out" by 10 or 20 BP each. And that +2 Willpower Ghouls get, helps with Drain (and picking one of the Will+Intuition traditions sidesteps the penalties to Logic and Charisma).

[Caadium]

After I tweaked it a little bit, here is what I've got.

Human Chaos Mage that grew up on the street and pulled from bits of pieces of other traditions to hone his magic.
Bod 3
Agi 2
Rea 3
Str 2
Cha 2
Int 3
Log 5
Wil 5

Magic 6
Edge 2

-------------- All of the above is unchanged from his original concept

Magican
Focused Concentration x2 (He originally wanted Focused Concentration and Aptitude Spellcasting)

Astral Beacon (His only chosen negative quality)
Uncouth
Bad Rep
Poor Self Control Braggart
(I added the last 3 for points and because I was thinking like Pax regarding Uncouth, the player loves to brag about game successes, and he didn't want to take social skills)

Arcana 2 (He wanted 4 so he could to his own spells, I hadn't had the chance to explain how long that actually takes when we last met)
Assensing 1 (I added this)
Binding 4
Counterspelling 4 (He originally was torn between taking this separate or as a group. Given the street concept, and his original desire to get Aptitude Spellcasting I broke it up and left off Ritual Casting, which another player in the group will have)
Dodge 3
Perception 1 (I added this)
Pistols 1 +2 Semi-Automatics (A suggestion he took from me instead of pistols 3)
Spellcasting 6
Summoning 4

Armor
Combat Sense
Heal
Levitate
Physical Barrier
Power Bolt
Stunball
Trid Phantasm
(All of the above were his choices, with some input from me. The drain value of some and the number of sustained combat spells was part of my concern for the character. I added the following)
Increased Reflexes
Manna Barrier
(These seemed inline with what he was already doing, and for a combat mage Increased Reflexes is SO useful)

His original approach left him with 2 bp for money/gear and the free 8 bp I give my players for contacts. My changes freed up a few points which I then bought and bound 3 Rating 3 Sustaining foci for him in addition to the 2 bp left for other gear. If he's determined to buff himself for combat purposes, I figured go a little crazy with foci so he can sustain some and try to keep him from the negative dice pool spiral I saw him headed towards.

Having help sustaining things, increasing his spellcasting, and his focused concentration should help him out a bit and isn't far removed from his original idea. If some of you see other ways to tweak or modify it, then those are other examples I'd use. I also want to try a sample or two where he's maybe done a point of ware. Perhaps one that augments things like his drain stat and other bumps that help in being a true combat mage. Another I'm thinking is a point of other ware and perhaps go with his desire to cast buff spells and make him a gun user that buffs up as an example. These are just brainstorms though.

[Xenefungus]

Why don't you want him to have a power focus? That would basically be the first advice anyone would give him. 4 free dice to everything!