Limiting Magic Options

[Shinobi Killfist]

Yes, but Sound Dampers are only available to cyberears, and mages with Silence would have been a direct response to the character's choice. A good GM doesn't need to custom-tailor enemies like that (unless they earn it through in-game enemies). I countered the particular player by adding more drones (logical) and using superior tactics (punchy-punchy character can't hit the people overlooking the alley from a balcony now, can he?).

Besides, Electricity is easily resisted with Nonconductivity.

And yet a SMG will still usually outperform the adept. So while sonic may be the best elemental strike power it is pretty much making a crap option a little less crappy. And don't get me started on a simple stun bolt spell.

[Dakka Dakka]

Astral combat is treated as melee physical attacks. And also, "there are no known ranged weapons which function in astral space". The *ONLY* way to affect something outside your reach in astral is to use a mana spell. No weapons work. Also astral combat is 'trained only' (great way to screw over munchkin mages who think they can ignore it... since they'll always just attack with spells... spirit at astral speed gets in his face and gores him... he can't defend since he can't default on the astral combat test).

Since it works like melee combat, the mage can also dodge and even default on it.

@Throwing: Why would ypou throw on the astral plane, when you can subdue. deals nice damage and prevents the spirit from launching another surprise attack.

In fact, only some later books hint that spirits gain any 'normal' senses at all when they materialize and that is only in the bit for making PC free spirits. I personally have always just gone with.. they can interact with the material plane, but can still only assense unless they have 'low light vision' or something similar through an enhanced senses critter power.

While they lack the Dual-Natured Critter Power, "Spirits in physical form are in fact dual-natured, interacting with the physical and astral planes simultaneously" (SR4A p. 186), whereas "a character using astral perception is considered dual-natured, active on both the physical and astral planes simultaneously." (SR4A p. 191).
Spirits can and do fully interact with the physical world while being materialized whereas for astrally perceiving characters there is no interaction between physical stimuli (photons, sound etc.) and their sensory organs.
Additionally the Perception Skill of all spirits and the enhanced senses of some would not work at all if the spirit could not perceive the physical plane.

So it is pretty obvious that materialized spirits work differently form assensing metahumans. The easiest way to deal with it is to use the same rules as the dual-natured Critter Power.

[Falconer]

Dakka: keep that in the broken rules thread... I'm addressing it here once then no more.

You're way out on a limb here for the first part. There is NO logical basis whatsoever for your argument in any means which understands the clear and simple meaning of 'cannot default on this skill'

Astral Combat (p122).... Default: NO, skill group: none.....
Description: "The astral combat skill is used to fight while in astral space, WHERE NORMAL COMBAT METHODS ARE NEXT TO USELESS"

You're saying you can default on an opposed skill check which outright states it CANNOT be defaulted on. What can I say... your logic is impeccable and completely unassailable... (what a joke). How does one argue with one who has no concept of the meaning of 'to default on a skill' and 'not all skills may be defaulted on'.

Lets take another goody in there... Assensing is also TRAINED ONLY and cannot be defaulted on. So you have a character who's somehow opened to the astral... not only are they completely clueless as to what is going on around them... they have no way to default on perception checks... let alone how to defend themselves.


As for the rest... spirits do NOT have the dual natured critter power. You assuming they do is a house rule... one most people do. As an astrally perceiving character I am simultaneously interacting with both the astral and the physical at the same time as well. The *ONLY* things with dual-natured as critter power... are critters which have no choice EXCEPT to ALWAYS be astrally active... they cannot turn it off or on whim they simply just always are trapped in both planes... it's the reason they suffer no penalties (and are the *SOLE EXCEPTION* allowed to use PHYSICAL COMBAT instead of Astral combat when attacked astrally. Yes even an adept with a sword interacting with a purely astral attacker enters into what I like to term a contest of wills (willpower + astral combat + weapon focus....).

Quite frankly... I only suggested this to the OP as a way that he might try and limit spirits if they're causing trouble. The -2 penalty is specific to the mage/adept astrally percieving while interacting with the physical. I was merely pointing out the two conditions are so analogous as it may work to consider treating them the same. (a mage/adept is normally 'trapped' in the physical... when he extends himself into the astral he takes a penalty on non-astral actions. A spirit is normally confined to the astral... when he extends to the physical, it may take a penalty on some of it's actions...

Here's where I'm different than you, I'm acknowledging it's a stretch to apply the penalty... but an understandable one to someone looking for a houserule to take some of the edge of spirits.

[Neraph]

And yet a SMG will still usually outperform the adept. So while sonic may be the best elemental strike power it is pretty much making a crap option a little less crappy. And don't get me started on a simple stun bolt spell.

Maybe in terms of range, but certainly not in terms of actual damage dealt. Full Auto Narrow Bursts with ADPS ammo is nice, but getting crazy-high comparable damage with an unarmed adept (Critical Strike, Martial Arts, Strength, ect.) that ignores armor is superior.

[Raiki]

Maybe in terms of range, but certainly not in terms of actual damage dealt. Full Auto Narrow Bursts with ADPS ammo is nice, but getting crazy-high comparable damage with an unarmed adept (Critical Strike, Martial Arts, Strength, ect.) that ignores armor is superior.

And to build on Neraph's point (never thought I'd say that), try telling someone that he can't take his (fleshy, completely mundane looking) hands into the fancy cocktail party.

While adepts may not be better than sams in most situations, they certainly have their uses.

~R~

[kzt]

And to build on Neraph's point (never thought I'd say that), try telling someone that he can't take his (fleshy, completely mundane looking) hands into the fancy cocktail party.

While adepts may not be better than sams in most situations, they certainly have their uses.

Yes. But it can be done as well and with a lot more flexibility by a mage. He can also walk into that same party. It's a lot easier to take out that sniper 300 meters away with stunbolt than critical strike, and stunball is a lot better at taking down a room full of armed guys than Mr "I run up and punch him with critical strike".

[Irion]

Beeing dual natured does not mean you have normal sight. (Ghouls are one example)

This is a problem in general with shadowrun and it is often a problem with games adding additional material in every aspekt in later books.
(Opposed to those, which have one Magic book, one "chargen-book", one combat book etc.pp.)

Sometimes the templates you started with are subotimal for the stuff you want to add.
The spirit vision described in Runners companion does not really fit any vision type.
Well, with a bit good will, it is a description of astral perception. So it would be great if the book started with the attitude to write down every type of vision a character has.
Humans: Normal.
Elves: Night vision.
Trolls: Infrared and normal.
(Or may be differently but it does not really matter)

If spirits can see normally is never really said or countered. There are some examples (some in novels ) which point you in one direction and there are some pointing in the other dirctions

[Dakka Dakka]

Dakka: keep that in the broken rules thread... I'm addressing it here once then no more.

You're way out on a limb here for the first part. There is NO logical basis whatsoever for your argument in any means which understands the clear and simple meaning of 'cannot default on this skill'

Astral Combat (p122).... Default: NO, skill group: none.....
Description: "The astral combat skill is used to fight while in astral space, WHERE NORMAL COMBAT METHODS ARE NEXT TO USELESS"

You're saying you can default on an opposed skill check which outright states it CANNOT be defaulted on. What can I say... your logic is impeccable and completely unassailable... (what a joke). How does one argue with one who has no concept of the meaning of 'to default on a skill' and 'not all skills may be defaulted on'.

You did not get my point at all. Of course you cannot default on the a skill check using astral combat. What you can do however, as astral combat works like melee combat, is use INT+Dodge. If you use a Dodge check you can default on that skill.

As for the rest... spirits do NOT have the dual natured critter power. You assuming they do is a house rule... one most people do. As an astrally perceiving character I am simultaneously interacting with both the astral and the physical at the same time as well. The *ONLY* things with dual-natured as critter power... are critters which have no choice EXCEPT to ALWAYS be astrally active... they cannot turn it off or on whim they simply just always are trapped in both planes... it's the reason they suffer no penalties (and are the *SOLE EXCEPTION* allowed to use PHYSICAL COMBAT instead of Astral combat when attacked astrally. Yes even an adept with a sword interacting with a purely astral attacker enters into what I like to term a contest of wills (willpower + astral combat + weapon focus....).

No, the astrally perceiving character does not fully interact with the physical plane. He cannot perceive the physical plane at all. He is only (magically) active on both planes. A spirit however is said to interact with both planes simultaneously. If id didn't, it could not use the Perception skill or its enhanced senses ever.

Quite frankly... I only suggested this to the OP as a way that he might try and limit spirits if they're causing trouble. The -2 penalty is specific to the mage/adept astrally percieving while interacting with the physical. I was merely pointing out the two conditions are so analogous as it may work to consider treating them the same. (a mage/adept is normally 'trapped' in the physical... when he extends himself into the astral he takes a penalty on non-astral actions. A spirit is normally confined to the astral... when he extends to the physical, it may take a penalty on some of it's actions...

I did not object this houserule, I objected you saying that the perception of the physical plane was only hinted at in later books.

@Irion: Ghouls only do not have physical sight because they go blind as part of their transformation. As they have the dual-natured Critter Power, they can perceive the physical world with their other senses. Whether an astrally perceiving metahuman is blind or not he can never see, hear, smell, touch or taste the physical plane.

Actually it is said that spirits have normal senses. They interact simultaneously with both planes. That includes photons sound waves etc. An astrally perceiving metahuman cannot do that. For him it is astral perception or physical perception. Never both.

[Irion]

I do not need to see, in order to interact.
There are several possible interpretations. But to include a special spirit vision, suggested in RC, is something I do not like.

And it is also impossible to use two kinds of perception at the same time. Only one. Thats how the rules work.

[Dakka Dakka]

I do not need to see, in order to interact.

Photons and sound waves are part of the physical world. The sensory organs of an astrally perceiving metahuman cannot interact with them.

And it is also impossible to use two kinds of perception at the same time. Only one. Thats how the rules work.

For astrally perceiving metahumans you are right. Creatures with the dual natured critter power are different though:

However, innate dual nature is different from astral perception in that dual natured critters can always sense both the physical and astral worlds without having to shift back and forth.

Since spirits do interact with the physical world they need to work like creatures with the dual-natured critter power.

[Ziploxx]

Loving all the discussion. We're in a session right now an wondering where the rules are for how SnS affects spirits.

[Irion]

Photons and sound waves are part of the physical world. The sensory organs of an astrally perceiving metahuman cannot interact with them.
For astrally perceiving metahumans you are right. Creatures with the dual natured critter power are different though:

Since spirits do interact with the physical world they need to work like creatures with the dual-natured critter power.

A blind man can interact with the physical world as a "normal" man can. Those photons interact with him two.
Just because you do not have eyes...

And it is not part of beeing a dual natured creature to see or to hear...

However you take it, the paragraph in the free spirit section even tells explicitly, that spirits do NOT see like normal people do.

Again, I do not care what it is or how it should be.
All I am saying is, that it is not said in the book. And that the only way to make such things CLEAR from the start is to introduce several kind of visions and just add them to every critter/methuman /drone whatever.

Dual natured RAW-wise only means, that you can use astral perception to navigate to see in the physical world with any distraction modifier. THATS ALL.
An other (unmentioned problem, because it does not matter rulewise) is, that two or even three sights do not overlap good.
If you add heat, normal, ultrasound and astral vision, you won't see much at all. Those will all layer on top of each other, until you can't see anything.
So by the rules you can only use one kind of vision at a time. (Or how else would you read the visible penalty table...

[_Pax._]

Beeing dual natured does not mean you have normal sight. (Ghouls are one example)

A ghouls with cybereyes can see the physical plane quite well, thank you very much. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Irion]

So what is your point? A ghul with cybereyes loosing the dual natured quality can see the physical plane quite well, too...

So somehow I think the word of interest here is "cybereyes"...

[_Pax._]

So what is your point? A ghul with cybereyes loosing the dual natured quality can see the physical plane quite well, too...

Ghouls don't stop beign Dual-Natured because they get Cybereyes.

So somehow I think the word of interest here is "cybereyes"...

No.

The concept of interest is, "not all ghouls are blind." Ghouls go blind because they develop cataracts, not because of any neurological deficiency. Replace the eyeballs with something that won't develop cataracts again, and they can see just fine. (And as PCs, have to buy off their blindness.) Such a ghoul sees the physical and the astral simultaneously.

[Neraph]

@Irion: Ghouls only do not have physical sight because they go blind as part of their transformation. As they have the dual-natured Critter Power, they can perceive the physical world with their other senses. Whether an astrally perceiving metahuman is blind or not he can never see, hear, smell, touch or taste the physical plane.

They can hear your pain on both planes simultaneously.

That includes photons sound waves etc.

Except photons from electronic screens, because that makes sense.

EDIT:

Loving all the discussion. We're in a session right now an wondering where the rules are for how SnS affects spirits.

ItNW is simply armor - it is halved by elemental effects just like all other armor.

[Dakka Dakka]

Except photons from electronic screens, because that makes sense.

Unfortunately there is that.

ItNW is simply armor - it is halved by elemental effects just like all other armor.

Yup, elemental effects form mundane sources (SnS, incendiary grenades etc.) Against elemental effects from spells or critter powers ItNW does not work at all.

[Neraph]

Well, it can work, just normally doesn't. A F8 spirit hit with 1 net success on SnS ammo will still ignore it, but yeah, normally it becomes a non-issue. I use the mental image of Sauron, Dark Lord materializing in front of a rent-a-cop and getting tazed into disruption as he does his monologue.

[Irion]

@_Pax._
Depends on their essence score, but I guess they do in 90% of the cases.

@Neraph

Except photons from electronic screens, because that makes sense.

Somehow I think the poor guy writing it, did not know if spirits should have normal vision or not. There are (if you go through all editions, since it is a fluff question) proves for either side I guess. Thats why I said, it is great if such stuff is done in advance and not the second a "race" becomes playable...

[Dakka Dakka]

Ghouls don't stop beign Dual-Natured because they get Cybereyes.

Only if they are otherwise awakened and have a Magic Rating of 2 or greater. Otherwise any essence robbing implant will reduce their magic rating from one to zero making them mundane and not dual-natured. Now with 1% awakened and the lack of ghoulpocalypse, there shouldn't be any awakened ghouls.

[Umidori]

So back to the SnS stuff briefly... does that only work if a spirit actually Materializes? Or will it work if they simply Manifest? Because they're supposedly intangible while Manifested, no? Would an elemental effect harm them though, despite the fact physical damage won't?

~Umi

[Dakka Dakka]

Manifested entities (spirits, projecting mages) are only perceivable from the physiscal plane. They are not active on the physical plane. As such the cannot be harmed by any effect on the physical plane or affect anything only active on the physical plane. They cannot perceive the physical plane either.

[Medicineman]

Or will it work if they simply Manifest? Because they're supposedly intangible while Manifested, no?

That's right. Manifestation only means making Yourself(the astrally mage or the Spirit) visible to mundanes.they remain in Astral Space
only when Spirits are materialised they can affect the physical World( and Vice Versa)

with a jinxed Dance
(after looking to Dakka Dakkas Post )
Medicineman

[_Pax._]

Only if they are otherwise awakened and have a Magic Rating of 2 or greater. Otherwise any essence robbing implant will reduce their magic rating from one to zero making them mundane and not dual-natured. Now with 1% awakened and the lack of ghoulpocalypse, there shouldn't be any awakened ghouls.

I don't believe Ghouls are precluded from raising their Magic Rating, even if not specifically Awakened. Or there's always the case of the cybereyes being present before being infected. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Umidori]

So a few more questions, somewhat different topic. Was reminded of it because I was wondering if it is ever possible to detect astral spirits without becoming astrally active yourself (or using manatech).

So on that note, what are the proper uses of the Adept Power Magic Sense?

Magic Sense
Cost: .5

This power grants the adept extra sensitivity to the ebbs and flows of mana in his vicinity. The adept can sense magical activity on the same plane within (Magic x 10) meters of his person. This power will detect active foci, spells, mana barriers, dual-natured beings, and mana anomalies; on the astral it will also detect astral forms. Treat this power as the Detect Magic spell (p. 199, SR4), with a Force equal to the adept’s Magic.

I'm being thrown by a few things here.

First, it says that its operation "detects magic on the same plane" (as the adept, presumably). But then it says it operates as the Detect Magic Spell.

Detect Magic (Active, Area)
Type: M • Range: T • Duration: S • DV: ( F÷2)

Detect Magic, Extended (Active, Extended Area)
Type: M • Range: T • Duration: S • DV: ( F÷2) + 2

The subject can detect the presence of all foci, spells, wards, magical lodges, and spirits within range of the sense. It does not detect Awakened characters or critters, astral signatures, or the effects of permanent spells once they have become permanent.

The spell doesn't differentiate between which plane the caster or the magical subject being detected is on at all. It clearly picks up ALL spells (not just physical spells in the physical plane and just astral in the astral), it picks up ALL mana barriers regardless of if the user is only active on the physical where they don't actually have an effect, it picks up ALL foci (even inactive?), and it picks up ALL spirits, whether in physical or astral form.

Furthermore, there are direct contradictions. The power says it detects dual natured beings, while the spell says that Awakened characters or critters are not detected (presumably intended to convey that you can't detect magical power that isn't active, but dual-natured critters ARE active magically).

I just... what the hell is going on here? Better question, since the only way an adept of any sort can ever enter the astral is via a dose of Shade, what the hell are they going on about detecing magic "on the same plane" for? You can't GET on the astral except via a rare and expensive alchemically produced magical compound that only crops up in one book and is an extreme exception! Why would they differentiate in the first place? Are they perhaps intending it to work on the astral only when you're astrally perceiving? And why would they explain how it works, and then say it operates like the spell which works completely differently than how they just explained it?

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/dead.gif)

~Umi