 Help me with my weapon (and/or build) choices!, very munchy Troll sammy build |
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 Apr 14 2004, 01:55 PM
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#26
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Great Dragon  Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222  |
Two different forces at play there. It is an actual rule that a starting character cannot have Beta- or Delta-grade Cyberware, and it is also a rule that s/he cannot have any gear with an Availability greater than 8. Not being allowed Cultured Bioware is more of a suggestion, and an "if you're running an official game" thing. (You probably knew this, but I thought I'd mentioned in case someone was confused.) tjn has several good points, but I would still like to stress the fact that, in addition to being an illegal character, he is dead. |
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Apr 14 2004, 02:13 PM
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#27
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 476 Joined: 30-December 03 From: Fresno, CFS: taking out one durned furriner at a time. Member No.: 5,940 |
My apologies torturi, if it was a joke; that :D looked very much like a smirk and your point was sufficiently obfuscated by the unneed barbs.
I came to a heuristic conclusion. The under lying themes of the original post were combative and gave the impression that the player of said PC was "trying to put one over" on a GM, or somehow "win" at SR. As far as assuming... you are assuming there is a story that goes along with those numbers. We've seen no evidence if there is or isn't, my experience is that usually when a character is intentionally 'munchkined' there's usually not a character behind it (enless we're speaking about Sphynx ;)). However, I will be the first to say I'm wrong if there is a logical and consistant story behind the choice of the numbers so chosen. As far as your background for the troll, I feel it's a step in the right direction, and fairly ingenious for explaining the Charisma and Willpower, but more should be fleshed out. But my main problem for that background is that the knowledge skills just don't reflect that sort of upbringing. By the way (joke/humourous retort starts here :noflame:) I think you are missing out on some enlightening experiments with the adhesive qualities of fecal matter. It's a pastime shared by many, so many that I hear the President is going to push through congress the National BS Day to celebrate the efforts of so many that talk gregariously for quite a large amount of time, while using vocabulary superfluously in order to misdirect or obfuscate the reality that there's just nothing there. :P |
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Apr 14 2004, 10:57 PM
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#28
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 162 Joined: 14-April 04 Member No.: 6,239 |
Ok first off
If I knew all the rules I wouldnt have asked for help now would I? I said what I said cause I know some people are just about flaming. I've read both the books but alot is assumed, open ended, or conflicts. Don't be a dick. When someone comes to you for advice they are humbling themselves to your experience. Either help or stfu. Not directing this at you, but at anyone who feels the correct reply to this post was RTFM. I thank you for the info thats valuable, but please drop the egos, no ones impressed. YHBT Yes this guy is a munchie. I rarely play them but this is my try at it. In one form or another everyones a steriotype. If I wanted to roleplay something normal I'd get a human with 3's. But why play something you are IRL,... thats boring. Now, with that issues that will be corrected (so lets move past them): - Deltaware, consider it gone. - Bio index, will be lowered to a 9, tho not sure what I'll drop. - Availability, my GM lets this slide on creation if he approves the purchases. Maybe its not you, but thats his rule 1. - Willpower 1,.. well I'm not planning on fighting any mages. If I do thats my downfall just as his will be a combat axe in the head if I get close. :D - Int score too high, might have added wrong, I'll double check. - Edges/flaws, the book states you can have no more then 5 edges/flaws combos but I don't see where it says the point total can't be more then a certain number. If so tho I can drop something. - Axe as polearm. Look at the SR3 book, the CC, the FoF book, etc. Some list 1 way (polearms), some list another (edged weapons). So tell me which is the correct skill. I think I took it from the SR3 book. When you get conflicts what bok should you say is the default assuming its not errata? - Lifestyles. I got some. Just not listed hear for space reasons. Things unclear or need advice with- - Body stress, something I need advice with. Not really understanding how it works. - Permits. How far you can get away with them. - Licences. Namely bodygaurd, PI, and bounty hunter. Each lets you pack and some legality of restraining others. Price, limits, etc? - Gun mounts and accessories, is everything legal <minus the custom add-on for the shotgun> - Is a combat axe 1 handed or 2 normally? - Better edges, cyberware, bioware choices? Anything more? |
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Apr 14 2004, 11:15 PM
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#29
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 400 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 825 |
Isn't Orthoskin incompatible with dermal, of which which trolls automatically get 1 level?
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Apr 14 2004, 11:22 PM
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#30
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 334 Joined: 17-November 03 From: Texas Member No.: 5,828 |
I have in the past, and would in the future, rule that the troll's natural dermal (or, for that matter, SURGE dermal) would keep anyone from getting Orthoskin. |
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Apr 14 2004, 11:25 PM
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#31
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 |
Okay, but remember the penalties for such a huge Bio Index. I already mentioned these above: +4 on any disease, toxin or drug Power, -2 dice to resist such substances +5 on any Healing test TNs, -2 dice on any Healing tests -3 boxes of Overflow That makes any healing extremely difficult, and most combat chemicals will take him out very easily. Don't be surprised when a NeuroStun grenade forces you to resist 12S Stun with 13 dice. Additionally, you will be on permanent system overstress such that all your Bioware implants are at virtual Light Stress. This causes the following effects: *Cold extremities and tingling sensations. (Platelet Factories) *Suffers from weight loss. (Symbiotes) *Frequent acute migraine headaches. (Synthacardium) *Unsightly dry and flaky skin. (Orthoskin) *Usually hot and sweaty, even more weight loss. (Suprathyroid gland) *Even more acute headaches. (Cerebral Booster) *Tends to be jumpy. (Synaptic Accelerator) *Muscle pains and cramps common, must limber himself up. (Enhanced Artwinkulation) *Muscle stiffness common, must limber up even more. (Muscle Augmentation) *Muscle pains and cramps a'plenty, you gotta limber yourself for hours on end. (Muscle Toner) Just think what that must feel like. |
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Apr 14 2004, 11:27 PM
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#32
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 162 Joined: 14-April 04 Member No.: 6,239 |
I think thats a house rule, though it makes sense. However I couldnt find anything in the books on it. But thats what I'll probably drop to lower my bio-index anyway. I think as it is he can take some decent punishment. |
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Apr 14 2004, 11:29 PM
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#33
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 |
Minus one instance of "Dry and flaky skin", then. :) |
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Apr 14 2004, 11:30 PM
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#34
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 162 Joined: 14-April 04 Member No.: 6,239 |
Probably about what 0.01 essence feels like. :eek: Seriously though I'll consider taking um down some. I just want this mofo to be a real blender. |
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Apr 15 2004, 12:12 AM
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#35
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,028 Joined: 9-November 02 From: The Republic of Vermont Member No.: 3,581 |
Good luck with that... but, personally, I think it's a bad plan. My combat sorcerer could drop you with a Manabolt, guaranteed, without even dipping into his Spell Pool, and with basically no chance of taking Drain. The Raven I hang out with is quite possibly worse... he has Control Thoughts, which is also Willpower-resisted (in other words, you stand no chance of ever breaking it), and could just use you as his own personal meatpuppet. And don't make the mistake of thinking that all mages are scrawny, physically helpless weaklings. That combat sorcerer of mine would be quite happy to take your troll on axe-to-axe (I'd probably lose to the troll's longer arms, but it'd still be a great fight). Also don't forget that mages can use weapon foci, just like adepts... and, unlike adepts, can start with them bonded. That can provide them with a lot of extra dice, and SR melee combat isn't really about how big and strong you are, but about how many dice you can throw at it.
The combat axe got switched from Edged Weapons to Pole Arms in the 10th (IIRC) SR3 printing, and that change is listed in the errata on the website. I personally don't like that particular change, for various reasons that aren't really relevant here, but it is canon. More generally, I usually figure that when there's a conflict between the corebook and the expansion that specifically covers that field, the expansion overrides the corebook. In this case, since we're talking weapons, CC would be the final authority.
Pole Arms are two-handed. |
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Apr 15 2004, 12:22 AM
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#36
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 162 Joined: 14-April 04 Member No.: 6,239 |
Looks at the extreme range of a 15 str bow,.. longer then a sinper rifle if I remember. Now imagine a headshot with a EX ranger-x arrow with that 15 strength. That 8 dice to roll plus combat pool. Now look at your mages body,.. sure you might have a shield up, if you know its coming (unlikely) but I'm not sure it would help much. Fact is man everyones got a weak spot. |
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Apr 15 2004, 12:22 AM
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#37
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,428 Joined: 9-June 02 Member No.: 2,860 |
Actually, I think cutter07 was pre-emptively trying to head off responses like yours, tjn.
The question is: who fires first? It is far, far easier for a mage to be part of crowd (or blend in with other combantants) or otherwise hidden from view than it is for your PC to wander around with his bow. The fight - not necessarily part of a run - that has the slightest chance of involving a caster will end this powerful troll all too easily. This is basically the equivalent of a character with a Body of 1 gambling he won't encounter a pistol or knife. Personally, I always favor Willpower over Intelligence. An intelligence 7 is nice, but doesn't do as much for a "muscle" character as Willpower. |
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Apr 15 2004, 12:30 AM
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#38
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 |
900 meters, 100 meters less than a Sniper Rifle. Decent enough, though. And it seems you have a Ranger-X for STR 10, so the range is actually 600 meters (unless there are different rules somewhere for Ranger-X ranges, couldn't find any). It's a good weapon, no argument there. But John Campbell's point is still just as valid: Any ole mage can fry this guy without any trouble whatsoever. |
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Apr 15 2004, 12:30 AM
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#39
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 162 Joined: 14-April 04 Member No.: 6,239 |
Exactly, couldn't have said it better myself. And a graceous thank you for those that have done so.
Aye, I haven't adjusted the bow yet for the updated str. But I think I made my point, 17D to the head is not a fun thang for someone with probably all of 3 body and 5 combat pool. More so when they never see it coming. Or I could use a barret 121 defaulting to pistols, whatever. Point is mages are the first to be tageted and the first to drop. Point is you can kill anyone, anything if you hit them where it hurts. While magic is certainly an equal to any other form of combat its not the ultimate. It has its limits and drawbacks. |
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Apr 15 2004, 12:40 AM
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#40
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 413 Joined: 20-November 03 Member No.: 5,835 |
No comments on legality (though YES it is muncheriffic, but hey he DID say so explicitly :))... but, I have to confess that I find it interesting that he lists skills after attributes, gear, and cyberware (toys).
=) sounds absolutely freaky with that bow, though. |
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Apr 15 2004, 12:42 AM
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#41
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 |
Not against someone with Willpower 1 it doesn't. :) Think of it this way: The mage frying this character with a Manabolt is like you firing that Roomsweeper at 1 meter at an immobile, unaware target that has no armor and a Body of 1. It's like that at any range, in any situation, regardless of anything this character can do, and can only be helped if your team has a really good mage. I'm not saying a Willpower of 1 is necessarily suicidal. A character can survive decently with it. But you have to be extremely careful not to piss of anyone who might know a mage. |
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Apr 15 2004, 01:00 AM
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#42
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 162 Joined: 14-April 04 Member No.: 6,239 |
I'll raise it ASAP, if for nothing else then for combat pool and med checks. Yeah if mage A sees me and wins inititive <rofl, yeah right> and hes in LOS then yeah I'm toasty. Assuming A:) I'm alone B:) Not ready C:) dumb enough to not to expect it. If I get the drop on him though imagine those dual thunderbolts or fianchi on burst working its magic. Hell look at how many actions I get in an init pass. Dont even get me started on if I'm close enough with the axe and its total +3 reach,.. But is he unstoppable,.. no. No one is. This isnt about "my daddy's character is tougher then your daddy's character". Its about playing weakness vs weakness and having a good crew to back you up. Chances are any mage is splatter before he even gets his chance at inititive. I know cause I've played that mage,.. |
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Apr 15 2004, 01:37 AM
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#43
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 162 Joined: 14-April 04 Member No.: 6,239 |
Also a little more info so make sense of the mess. The dependent and hunted have a story line but its long and I hate typing anywho. The dependent is a twin brother who he will blindly follow and defend, even if its suicidial. the unter is an enemy from thier past, namely a troll hater with money power and knowledge. On the permit weapons those are for personal use only. This guy is being groomed to be a bodygaurdish type (company man) for a corp exec. He probably will use company gear anyway, since carrying a fianchi into a black tie affair isnt tres chic. That why I have formal wear btw. There is going to be some "runs" but its mostly assassination using company gear. On the mag 3 eyes,. well there are times mag 3 is better then smartgun w/ rangefinder. Also for non-combat things like keeping an eye on potential attackers. |
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Apr 15 2004, 03:10 AM
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#44
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 476 Joined: 30-December 03 From: Fresno, CFS: taking out one durned furriner at a time. Member No.: 5,940 |
And don't be a dick when asking others to not be a dick, I saw nothing "humble" about your first post. It was arrogant and combattive.
When the first post is arguementative in itself, asking others to not respond in kind is disingenuous.
A mage doesn't have to win initiative. All he has to do is be smart. You assume you can pick out which is the mage before he casts a spell, or that if you do know who to target that he will be in the open at the start of combat, or even the fact that he's even there physically at all and not just projecting. It doesn't mater how high your initative is, because you will only get one action before the mage goes. Counting on the fact the Troll will be able to know who to target and be able to hit him once he does know, is iffy at best. That and Manabolt has a range of about 2 or 3 kilometers with a good pair of binoculars, even more if the mage sets up a tripod.
At extreme range, the base TN is 4 instead of 5, thats the only advantage Mag3 has over SL2 with a rangefinder, and at all other ranges the SL2 with rangefinder is better.
Personally, I wouldn't go cybereyes with a Troll, the natural Thermographic is just too nice to sacrifice. Grab a Nictitating Membrane bioware to eliminate glare since the troll would still have his normal eyes. Also, Mag3 would be a detriment to looking for potential attackers since it magnifies your center of vison at the expense of your periphral vison. Your periphral vison is the one that senses sudden movement, which would be key to anticipating attackers. Gunmounts: Dunno if you realise that you won't be able to use a silencer with the gas vents, but other then the crazy undermount it's fine. As far as Permits, page 273 has what you're looking for. Must have a valid SIN (fake SINs must pass a rating 6 opposed test) and may require proof of employment and an adequate reason as to why the person should get it. Availablity is +2 for whatever gear it is on an Etiquette test. As the character doesn't have Etiquette, he must default. And as you can't default if the TN is above 8, anything that has an availability above 6 he can't aquire a permit for. Even an availabilty 2 item would have a TN of 8 on one die to get the permit for it. Even if you did have a permit... I feel it's more hassle then it's worth. Remember that gun, it's balistic fingerprints and identification number is now registered to all enforcement agencies. Should it be used in a run, you will be the first person they talk to. Plus the more paperwork the character files, the easier it is to find something about him on the Matrix. |
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Apr 15 2004, 03:11 AM
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#45
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 334 Joined: 17-November 03 From: Texas Member No.: 5,828 |
Actually, I'm going to change my stance and say it's canon, now that I've read it verbatum.
M&M, p.79. I thought it was less explicit than that, but it seems pretty clear that trolls can't get orthoskin. I would allow player who wanted orthoskin on his/her troll to go through surgery to have his/her dermal deposits removed (equivalent to having them installed cybernetically), and then take orthoskin after he/she healed. |
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Apr 15 2004, 03:18 AM
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#46
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Man In The Machine Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,264 Joined: 26-February 02 From: I-495 S Member No.: 1,105 |
Lets look at these
Gunsmithing? Ok, he knows how its done, but hasent a clue how to do it. Bummer. Fence hotspots, too bad anyone he talks to would run away from his complete social ineptness. Only Cybertech 4? Hell hes got enough chrome for any 2 people. Why not make it 6 and say its a hobbie? And car theft? First he dosent have the skills to even THINK about doing it, never mind that he cant drive in the first place. For gods sakes, hes a bodyguard, at least give him the ability to drive a car. |
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Apr 15 2004, 03:22 AM
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#47
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Target Group: Members Posts: 26 Joined: 14-April 04 Member No.: 6,241 |
Hey man is it just me, but is that charactera bit on the crack side of the equation for starting characters. I mean as a GM I certainly would not allow that in unless Iwas running something like Shutdown or Survival of the Fittest. Anyways nice character but over powered. Way overpowered. 8)
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Apr 15 2004, 04:10 AM
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#48
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 223 Joined: 3-February 04 Member No.: 6,054 |
I think that character is the best I have ever fixed my eyes upon. Most of our games ignore those pesky bioware/cyberware stress issues, so go ahead and keep it all. It seems that your character would be (as a bodyguard) limited in a large range of skills (no real need for much extra) and the game is probably going to require massive stats, go ahead and have fun with it. :P
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Apr 15 2004, 04:12 AM
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#49
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 162 Joined: 14-April 04 Member No.: 6,239 |
Tjn just save it, I wasnt arrogant, your just a dick. Be a dick to someone who cares enough to listen. I'm done with you.
No this is pure knowledge, consider it gun trivia. Not B/R. I got this from the weapon master build in SR3
Cash speaks loud and clear. Another one from SR3 builds
Not really, Bioware yes but cyber hes kinda mild IMHO. Yes another form SR3 builds
Really, a 7 int and ungodly quickness isnt enough now days?
Car = reaction. Go take a look at his reaction,... Now think,..
You got some good points but knowledge skills are for knowledge, its what you know not what you do. I know alot about guns IRL but couldnt go whip up a .357 mag now could I? |
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Apr 15 2004, 04:21 AM
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#50
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Traumatizing players since 1992 Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,282 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Las Vegas, NV Member No.: 220 |
Before any opponent? ONE in third edition, you will never get more than a single action before opponents can go. Always keep that in mind. Especially beacuse if there's a living mage, youre done. Period. |
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