High-Powered Chambering and ammo, Help with the rules Options

[forgarn]

I need some clarification on these rules. The WAR book clearly contradicts itself. On the High-Powered Ammo, it states " High-power rounds
inflict a –2 dice pool penalty when fired due to excess recoil." I have some people telling me that because it is a dice pool penalty that I cannot mitigate this with RC. But the description clearly states that it is due to recoil, so additional recoil compensation should reduce this penalty.

Which is correct? Can it be reduced with additional recoil comp?

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

We allow that High-Recoil Penalty to be reduced by Recoil Compensation, it is, after all, Recoil. But it is an additional Recoil Modifier of -2 PER ACTION. So, For Example, a Short burst would be a -4 (rather than -2), and the 2nd Short Burst would be a -5 (rather than -3). Or for SA it would be -2 (1st Shot) and -3 (2nd Shot).

Does that help?

[Falconer]

I've had it run against me the other way. Recoil comp wasn't allowed to help when got a bunch of them off a bunch of azzie goons. So it's 100% up to your GM how he wants to handle it.

The catch is it's not explicitly defined as a recoil modifier, only hinted at. So the rules are grey enough to be read either way as the GM sees fit.


Also TJ fails to emphasize that recoil is CUMULATIVE across a round... so the first burst is at -4 in his example.. the second burst is at -9 total.



That makes me wonder if I could try and pull a 'high power chambering' mod off on an assault cannon.... since they tend to be single shot... the best available ammo besides stock is only ap-3 extra. The double uncompensated sucks... but getting 2 points RC to cover single shot doesn't seem too bad. But the extra +2/-1AP beats the socks off of -3AP available otherwise. Only catch I can think of is anti-tank rounds on the same page are already only available for small arms according to the GM (despite the fluff including assault cannons under large bore weapons... because 170nuyen per 10 shots was rediculously cheap compared to the cost for the AV AC rounds (-1/-3 @ 2500/10) or even normal assault cannon ammo at 450 per 10).

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

I've had it run against me the other way. Recoil comp wasn't allowed to help when got a bunch of them off a bunch of azzie goons. So it's 100% up to your GM how he wants to handle it.

The catch is it's not explicitly defined as a recoil modifier, only hinted at. So the rules are grey enough to be read either way as the GM sees fit.


Also TJ fails to emphasize that recoil is CUMULATIVE across a round... so the first burst is at -4 in his example.. the second burst is at -9 total.


That makes me wonder if I could try and pull a 'high power chambering' mod off on an assault cannon.... since they tend to be single shot... the best available ammo besides stock is only ap-3 extra. The double uncompensated sucks... but getting 2 points RC to cover single shot doesn't seem too bad. But the extra +2/-1AP beats the socks off of -3AP available otherwise. Only catch I can think of is anti-tank rounds on the same page are already only available for small arms according to the GM (despite the fluff including assault cannons under large bore weapons... because 170nuyen per 10 shots was rediculously cheap compared to the cost for the AV AC rounds (-1/-3 @ 2500/10) or even normal assault cannon ammo at 450 per 10).

It is cumulative, in the sense that it is -4 and then -5 (for a total of -9 ; -2 HP -2 for 1st Burst; -2 HC and -3 2nd Burst)... it is not cumulatiuve in that it is -4 and then -9 (for a total of -13). So, for a weapon that has a total of RC 5 (for all mods/Strength, etc), the penalties would be -0, and -4 (4 of the RC applied to the 1st shot, but only the remaining point applied to the 2nd Shot).

Did not think that needed emphasis before, though, since that is how it normally works.

[forgarn]

Well, I was hoping for a more definitive answer, but since I am the GM, I will be playing it the way I read it... as a penalty that can be reduced by RC. Thanks for the info!!

[Medicineman]

We allow that High-Recoil Penalty to be reduced by Recoil Compensation, it is, after all, Recoil. But it is an additional Recoil Modifier of -2 PER ACTION. So, For Example, a Short burst would be a -4 (rather than -2), and the 2nd Short Burst would be a -5 (rather than -3). Or for SA it would be -2 (1st Shot) and -3 (2nd Shot).

Does that help?

ehmmmm,Welll, Hmmm
the First Shot is always recoil free, only the second shot gets a recoilmod
so it should be 1st Shot - , 2nd Shot -3

with a Recoilless Dance
Medicineman

[Umidori]

I think your primary problem is that you're using War! to begin with... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

~Umi

[Medicineman]

I think your primary problem is that you're using War! to begin with... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

~Umi

after a while You learn to dance with the Devil (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

He who dances under the pale Moonlight
Medicineman

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

ehmmmm,Welll, Hmmm
the First Shot is always recoil free, only the second shot gets a recoilmod
so it should be 1st Shot - , 2nd Shot -3

with a Recoilless Dance
Medicineman

Not with High Powered Ammunition... They suffer an additional -2 due to high recoil. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Umidori]

Recoil is the force exerted on the weapon and the weapon handler by the detonation of a round's explosive propellant. It doesn't occur until after the round is fired (or technically, concurrent with the firing of the round, but the majority of the recoil effect manifests after the round has left the barrel).

If you have yet to fire a round, you cannot possibly suffer recoil. First shot never has recoil.

~Umi

[Falconer]

TJ: I know you know it's cumulative. But ESPECIALLY when dealing with newbies... and even old salts... I've found that I can't take that for granted. Many people don't get that recoil increases by +1 for each bullet fired in a pass after the first and it starts a huge argument. So I prefer to make sure that everyone knows it right away because the authors did a lousy job of making the cumulative nature clear. (and made it worse with SR4a... with only an example on p154 now... and the question answered again in the FAQ. When the word cumulative was clearly used in prior printings on a different page from 'recoil' itself of course just to make sure most people got it wrong *sigh*)


Umi & medicineman: No, the high powered rules say you ALWAYS suffer the -2. There is no provision in there for first shot is free. That was my point... it's not explicitly defined as a "recoil modifier" like those mods are defined everywhere else they come up, so it's unclear whether or not recoil comp can counter it. I lean on the side of it's recoil... so let it RC do it's job (makes sense, you don't fire a high power rifle without shouldering it as the gun will jump uncontrollably when you pull the trigger). The *ONLY* source of recoil in the basic rulebook is from firing multiple rounds... until 'War' there were no other sources of extra recoil, war adds a new one... anytime you fire a weapon with a high power chambering mod.

"High-power rounds inflict a -2 dice pool penalty when fired due to excess recoil." It states it directly, the modifier is always present... if the authors were bloody consistent (every other rulebook uses 'recoil modifier' explicitly to describe the -mods which come from it).

So if you have a semi-auto pistol. the correct mods are -2 for the first shot, then -5 for the second.

[_Pax._]

"High-power rounds inflict a -2 dice pool penalty when fired due to excess recoil." It states it directly, the modifier is always present... if the authors were bloody consistent (every other rulebook uses 'recoil modifier' explicitly to describe the -mods which come from it).

So if you have a semi-auto pistol. the correct mods are -2 for the first shot, then -5 for the second.

No, no, no. That "-2, then -5" bit there, defies your own logic. What you've done is, apply a -2 recoil to the first shot and then a -3 recoil to the second shot. That makes no sense at all.

...

If it ISN'T a "recoil modifier", if it's just a flat, always-on -2 penalty? Then it's not cumulative, as the High Powered rule itself never indicates it is. Thus, the modifiers would be "-2, then -3".

If is IS a "recoil modifier", then (a) the first bullet of a combat round never imposes a recoil modifier, and, the second shot would only cause a single -2 modifier - because the High Powered description does not say "an additional -2". Thus, the modifies would be "-0, then -2".

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Recoil is the force exerted on the weapon and the weapon handler by the detonation of a round's explosive propellant. It doesn't occur until after the round is fired (or technically, concurrent with the firing of the round, but the majority of the recoil effect manifests after the round has left the barrel).

If you have yet to fire a round, you cannot possibly suffer recoil. First shot never has recoil.

~Umi

Excep that the HP Mod imposes a -2 automatic Recoil penalty even on the first round. You really should read the entry before telling me how it works. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Falconer]

Excellent catch Pax... but I am being consistent as I said I think it makes sense to allow recoil comp to compensate for it, in which case I'm lumping it in with all the other recoil mods which ARE cumulative. I'm just chalking it up to sloppy wording on the dev's part. (wouldn't be the first time!)

If it is only just another non-recoil situational modifier you are correct... -2 first shot, -2 -1 (recoil) second.

And the rules for recoil never say that. They never deal with high power chambering. They never mention the first bullet at all in any way! "Semi-automatic weapons that fire a second shot recieve a -1 dice pool modifier for the second shot only." It does *NOT* say there is *NEVER* any recoil on the first shot, it merely addresses the second shot and the extra recoil it adds after the first and *IGNORES* the first. The first shot is at a -0 recoil comp figure so there is no need at time of publishing... high power chambering changes that.


Challenge: cite me exact text which says the first bullet NEVER suffers a recoil penalty. I can't find it anywhere. It's a paraphrasing which was true so long as the ONLY source of recoil penalties was additional bullets. It ceased to be true when secondary sources of recoil entered the game.

[_Pax._]

The thing is, Falconer ... either the -2 from High Powered is not cumulative - meaning, it's not multiplied by the number of shots fired - or it should replace the standard recoil penalty, not add to it.

IOW, assuming no recoil compensation across multiple initiative passes, it should be either:

(a) -2, -3, -4, -5, -6, -7

--or--

(b) -0, -2, -4, -6, -8, -10

... even if you insist on imposing the modifier for the first shot as well (which runs contrary to every precedent in not just 4E, but all editions of Shadowrun) ... it would come out to "-2, -4, -6, -8, -10, -12".

Never, never, never "-2, -5, -8, -11, -14, -17".

[Falconer]

Pax... recoil is refreshed at the end of each *IP* not each combat turn. ***Where are you getting half this stuff?!?!?!?!***
Further recoil modifiers are cumulative per pass minus recoil comp. You CANNOT fire more than *two* bursts per pass.
See I'm NOT playing favorites here... if it's recoil I'm treating it EXACTLY like all other recoil in the system. It's a special recoil modifier applied whether it's the first burst OR the second burst. (I'm defining burst as 1, 3, 6, or 10rd burst). I'm giving it all the benefits of recoil comp along with all the drawbacks if it is recoil.



So *IF* it is an additional -2 "recoil mod"... then yes -2 RECOIL first shot, -3 RECOIL second shot (cumulative to -5) offset by all available recoil compensation is the first reading I make (and think is the most likely that the authors intended).

This makes perfect sense if you consider the case of 2 short bursts from a HPC AR. In which case you adjust to -4 recoil first burst, -5 recoil second burst (cumulative to -9). Offset by all available recoil comp. Refresh at the end of each pass. Doing otherwise requires treating recoil substantially differently in the case of semi-auto than all other automatic fire modes.

Note: the approach is simple... mechanically identical, and resolved exactly the same way no matter whether you only fire a 1 round 'burst' or 3rd. It's nicely elegant and matches the letter of the wording of the rules.


If it *ISN"T* a recoil modifier and just simply another situational modifier added to the combat chart. Then it's a binary decision are you firing high power chambering? Yes... apply -2 situational dice pool whether it's first or second shot. plus any uncompensated recoil on the first/second burst. Hence where I get with -2 HPC first shot, -2 HPC -1 Recoil == -3 (recoil comp can't drop the mod below -2 because HPC in this case is *NOT* a recoil mod and recoil comp can't compensate for it).

Under that reading of the modifier. It is no different than any other situational modifier. *IF* you fire a pistol in your off-hand. That is a -2 situational modifier. Assuming no other modifiers are in play... it's -2 for the first shot, -3 for the second shot (recoil comp can get you back a max of +1 die back). Exactly the same as above.

If it's both HPC and off-hand firing... now you're really hurting yourself... -4 first shot, -5 second. (-2 HPC, -2offhand, additional -1 offset by RC on 2nd shot).

You're arguing that it's NOT a situational modifier like every other modifier in the book... and it has some wierd application which only you can figure out because I can't make heads or tails of what you're asserting here.

[_Pax._]

Pax... recoil is refreshed at the end of each *IP* not each combat turn. ***Where are you getting half this stuff?!?!?!?!***

Bah, so I used the wrong term - "combat turn" instead of "action phase". Sue me.

Further recoil modifiers are cumulative per pass minus recoil comp. You CANNOT fire more than *two* bursts per pass.
See I'm NOT playing favorites here... if it's recoil I'm treating it EXACTLY like all other recoil in the system. It's a special recoil modifier applied whether it's the first burst OR the second burst. (I'm defining burst as 1, 3, 6, or 10rd burst). I'm giving it all the benefits of recoil comp along with all the drawbacks if it is recoil.

No, you're NOT treating it "EXACTLY like all other recoil". The recoil on the first shot is always zero. And it has been zero across all four and a half edition, for a quarter century.

You're treating it as it's own, special KIND of recoil. At least admit that much!

So *IF* it is an additional -2 "recoil mod"... then yes -2 RECOIL first shot, -3 RECOIL second shot (cumulative to -5) offset by all available recoil compensation is the first reading I make (and think is the most likely that the authors intended).

Re-read the description for High Powered Ammunition. Tell me where it says the word "additional".

...

...

That's right, it doesn't.

You're arguing that it's NOT a situational modifier like every other modifier in the book... and it has some wierd application which only you can figure out because I can't make heads or tails of what you're asserting here.

I'm acting like nothing of the sort. It's simply double recoil ... that is, -2 per bullet fired. (Starting with the second round, and IMO, only doubled when uncompensated ... just like from an HMG or Assault Cannon.)

YOU, however, aren't imposing a penalty of 2 per round, you're imposing a penalty of three per round, starting with the second. And that's patently ludicrous ... not to mention, in no way reflects the description of High Powered Ammunition.

[Umidori]

Excep that the HP Mod imposes a -2 automatic Recoil penalty even on the first round. You really should read the entry before telling me how it works. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

You misunderstand me. I was talking about physics.

You could fire the biggest gun in the world and the recoil won't ever, couldn't possibly, affect your aim on that first shot. The recoil might be so huge it tears your arm out of your socket, making it damn hard to put the barrel back on target for the NEXT shot, but a weapon essentially cannot suffer recoil from the round it is currently firing, only recoil from previous rounds.

If the rule contradicts this, it's a dumbass rule. Given it's source, I'd say that'd be a given anyway.

~Umi

[FriendoftheDork]

Whatever the writer intended, it clearly states you suffer -2 penalty when fired. Not -2 additional recoil penalty, not double recoil penalty (like HMG), not a cumulative -2 per shot beyond the first. You may argue that it is inconsistent and unrealistic and make a house rule, but that's still not what the text says. "Due to excess recoil" might just have said "due too blue balloons". It does not mean it affects the general rules for recoil in any way.

Oh, and the Elephant Rifle from SR4A state that it imposes a -1 recoil modifier if both barrels are fired simultaneously, so there IS a precedence for recoil on the first "shot". Granted, this is two shots, but if they happens at the same time, there would physically be no more recoil until after the shells leave the barrels. Rules wise this is essentually treated as a two-round narrow short burst.

[Umidori]

You're right, rules wise it is a two-round narrow short burst. But the physical parallel is not hard to imagine.

It's a double-barrel rifle, with two triggers. You can pull both "at the same time", but in practical usage one barrel is going to fire slightly before the other because of how your hand and finger interact with the assembly. And while that intervening time may be very short, it's still long enough for there to be at least some recoil before the second round is fired. Moreover, actual historical usage of such double-trigger weapons included purposefully staggered trigger pulls, slow enough that there is at least some recoil and spread (which was actually advantageous in some situations), but also fast enough that it all occurs in one firing motion and shooters didn't attempt to put the barrel back on target (essentially compensate for the recoil) before firing the second round.

And even if you tried to get sneaky about it by converting to Electronic Firing to remove the human element of pulling two different triggers, the subsequent recoil compensation would counteract the recoiling effect anyway. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

~Umi

[Falconer]

Pax: say whatever you want... the rest of your post makes absolutely no sense unless you're trying to do it in your own words "across multiple initiative passes". You really should start READING the rules before pontificating on them.


Umidori: you're slightly off on that score.

Heavy recoil does adversely affect aim. it causes the weapon to move before the round leaves the barrel which throws off aim. Or causes lightweight barrels to flex. Even in a benchrest vice. Excessive recoil also causes many shooters to flinch. I agree to a point... I've actually seen this in person... training people on proper pistol technique using .22's for cheap ammo... then they switch to a 9mm, .45 or worse a magnum revolver... their first shot is dead on... after that they can't hit the broadside of a barn because they keep anticipating the recoil and flinching.

Just to give an example I saw while double checking my memory on the .30-06... Wiki
"One reason that the 30-06 has remained entrenched as an extremely popular round for so long is that the cartridge is at the upper limit of power that is tolerable to most shooters.[16][17] Recoil energy (Free recoil) greater than 20 foot pounds (27.1 joules) will cause most shooters to develop a serious flinch,..."

Speaking from a precision standpoint... heavy recoil on a gun (like say a .300 win mag) makes position far more important. From something like off-hand it's problematic... down prone with the bipod/sling not so bad. As it can significantly move your point of aim before the round leaves the barrel. Very important when you're dealing with less than a minute of accuracy at long ranges.

You're right though in a way... at that point you're getting really down into the weeds... so probably isn't overly relevant to the game at hand.

[Medicineman]

It says ( translated from Page 173 German Fronteinsatz which is my reference : )
Highpower Ammo causes a Modifier of -2 because of additional recoil.
If it is because of additional Recoil and the first shot is recoilfree,the Modifier occurs whenever normal Recoil occurs.
The Recoil mods are not 0 at first shot and -1 for the second shot
they are nonexistent (because you still have to fire) and -1 for the second Shot
This is how I interpret what I'm reading
its very similar to an Assault cannon
they suffer -1 Recoil due to being a Heavy weapon
And still the first Shot is free of recoil

Hough!
Medicineman

[_Pax._]

[...] causes the weapon to move before the round leaves the barrel which throws off aim. [...]

Recoil capable of doing this would have to be capable of tearing the arm(s) straight off a max-body Troll. Even a rifle with a 36" barrel, that's all of three feet. Bullets tend to be moving many hundreds if not THOUSANDS of feet per second.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.300_Remington_SA_Ultra_Mag

That's a "high powered" rifle round. It has a muzzle velocity of just under 3,000 feet per second - that means, there is roughly 1/1000th of a second delay between detonation of the propellant charge, and the bullet leaving the end of the barrel. One one-thousandth of a second. To throw someone's aim off, by moving the barrel even 1/16th of an inch ... good lord, man. Just contemplating the kind of forces involvd, gives me a headache.

It would literally rip your arm off.

[...] anticipating the recoil and flinching.

That's still not actual recoil.

[Falconer]

Pax:
I'm done trying to educate you. You're too set in your ways... you won't listen to someone who placed in the teens nationally with a rifle and has spent time test firing weapons with the army marksmanship unit. You know what you know and you're happy with your ignorance. (for the record... 1/16" jump at 2' == ~9 inches off at 100 yards... to say nothing of 500+). You also persist with other simplistic blatherings such as only 1ms in the barrel... actually the bullet starts form a dead stop and accelerates... it takes roughly 2ms for this to happen in a 2' barrel for all rounds exiting at ~3000fps. Proper follow through after pulling the trigger is still critical.




Medicine:
Please cite it... assault cannons don't have an automatic 1 recoil anywhere in the rules that I've ever seen. Give me an exact page and sentence cite. In fact, the shock pad on the BBB assault cannon is a joke because the gun is single shot and has no recoil for it's 1 point of built in recoil comp. Even the bit about doubled recoil only serves to screw MG's.

The original English text says the condition is "when fired" in that sentence and never once uses the word additional nor any other to that effect. Quote: "High-power rounds inflict a -2 dice pool penalty WHEN FIRED due to excess recoil". War p156. The word 'additional' never occurs, the only condition for the -2 penalty is 'when fired'. It sounds like there may be a translation error/difference in there or you're mistranslating it from german.

I can understand people debating whether it's a 'recoil modifier' or not... given the fuzzy mess that the writer adds by tossing on the last 4 words... if he just ended the sentence at 'when fired' it would be crystal clear. Instead it merely muddies the waters as to whether it's recoil and can be compensated for as recoil can be... or whether it's simply a negative situational modifier.

[_Pax._]

Pax:
I'm done trying to educate you.

The feeling is mutual.

The original English text says the condition is "when fired" in that sentence and never once uses the word additional nor any other to that effect.

THAT IS EXACTLY MY GODDAMNED POINT.

It never says "additional" - yet, you're giving a -2 cumulative additional penalty for recoil - changing the recoil from -1, to -3, on every shot after the first.

Either it's just a static penalty of -2 (in which case a double-tap should result in a -2 penalty to the first roll, and -3 to the second) ... or it's a recoil modifier (in which case a double-tap should produce modifiers of -0 and -2 respectively).