High-Powered Chambering and ammo, Help with the rules Options

[Shortstraw]

Pax, Falconer I believe this is appropriate to the thread.

[Medicineman]

Medicine:
Please cite it... assault cannons don't have an automatic 1 recoil anywhere in the rules that I've ever seen. Give me an exact page and sentence cite. In fact, the shock pad on the BBB assault cannon is a joke because the gun is single shot and has no recoil for it's 1 point of built in recoil comp. Even the bit about doubled recoil only serves to screw MG's.

Maybe I didn't wrote it clearly or misunderstandingly (Sorry)
I'll try it differently
Assault Cannons have double Recoil penalty, but the First shot is recoilfree Recoil happens AFTER the first Shot
Highpowermodded Weapons have a -2 Recoil modifier,but the first Shot is just as recoilfree because they follow the same Rules.
To give a recoilmodifier before the first shot would be (ImO) breaking the streamlining of Weaponsrules
Its like saying.....
OK ,If You Fire a Burst with this new Weapon the DV is not +2 (like with all other Burst Weapons).
With this Weapon You add together the Damage(5p and AP-1) so a Burst with this (imaginery) Weapon is 15P AP-3


with a (hopefully) clearer Dance
Medicineman

[FriendoftheDork]

Assault Cannons have double Recoil penalty, but the First shot is recoilfree Recoil happens AFTER the first Shot
Highpowermodded Weapons have a -2 Recoil modifier,but the first Shot is just as recoilfree because they follow the same Rules.
Medicineman

No they don't- This is your houserule. They have a -2 dice pool penalty. Dice pool penalties don't follow the rules of recoil penalties. Until there is an errata on it, that's what it is. It's not the first time there have been exceptions in the rules, or even contradictions.

[Falconer]

Medicine:
Don't worry about it... it became clear as soon as I saw your last post that there was some kind of language difference or barrier. I'm up to you til you hit the point of assault cannons have double uncompensated recoil just like all other heavy weapons. There's nothing in the rules which says that a weapon can't get a recoil penalty on the first shot for reasons OTHER THAN firing multiple rounds at once. What you're arguing that it is impossible to get any recoil whatsoever on a first shot anytime FOR ANY REASON. The rules never say this, they only say there's no recoil due to previous rounds fired on your first shot. This was not always true.

To bring things back full circle, what started this whole thing was the original posters question. "Can he offset the HPC modifier with recoil comp?". My answer to that is maybe, the HPC mod/ammo in War is written ambiguously, it could be either a recoil modifier OR a situational modifier. If it's recoil then yes it could (but it would also become a cumulative penalty like all other recoil is, meaning you'd need more RC for a second shot). If it isn't then well, it's a straight -2 penalty you can never do anything about. (I would prefer to treat it as recoil... as then you can negate the penalty and make the mod actually worthwhile, otherwise a flat -2 all the time is really bad).


To bring back a blast from the past. SR3 used an almost identical mechanic to resolve recoil and automatic weaponry. Automatic fire raised recoil by 1 per bullet (no -1 for first bullet free) offset by compensation. There was actually a way to shoot *1* bullet using a full-auto mode complex action, firing only a single round, and get -1 recoil.. but increasing the damage code of the weapon by 1! (an AK would go from 8M -> 9M with a single round if you did this... or you could fire twice and get 8M/8M if you single shot.... 11S/11S with bursts (-3, -6 recoil), in which case every round fired again counted against recoil comp, no first round free).

SR4 resurrected this system only it then added the extra -1 to all fire modes so that semi-auto/burst/full-auto all used the exact same recoil system and equation. Basically it made all the fire modes 'equal' and resolved in exactly the same manner. I asked a dev once why they used the chart with all the confusion it created... he said they thought it would make it simpler... haha anything but. Also verified that the math is exactly right. (every weapon in the game which fires multiples uses it... double barrels, 3rd bursts, hypervelocity, or miniguns).



What I see when I'm looking at this, is I see a new line-item added to the chart.
1. Am I running? yes, -2
2. Am I in melee combat? no
....
18. Am I firing semi-auto? yes, is this the first or second shot. -1 recoil modifier for second
19. Am I firing short burst? no
20. Am I firing long burst? no
21. Am I firing full burst? no
.....
25. Is the target at point-blank? yes, +2
26. What is the visibility modifier? Glare (-1)
....
27. Is the weapon HighPowerChamber? Yes -2 modifier (either recoil modifier or a non-recoil situational modifier... unclear which because of ambiguous wording).

Line 27 is a completely new line added by war... it doesn't care if you fired rounds before or after. Nowhere in the rules does it say you CAN'T have recoil on your first shot. You just can't have recoil due to volume of fire of previously fired bullets. The logical test is only... are you firing a HPC weapon? "When fired" apply a -2 modifier.

I normally collapse step 18-21 going down that chart into a single... recoil mod == (1 - rounds fired this pass)

[Umidori]

Semi-Automatic Mode

Guns that fire in semiautomatic mode can be fired twice in the same Action Phase. Each shot requires a Simple Action and a separate attack test. The first shot is unmodified; the second shot, if fired in that same Action Phase, takes a –1 recoil dice pool modifier. Recoil compensation can cancel out this modifier.

This is the clearest spot in the rules I've yet found regarding recoil on the first shot. The rules for bursts simply state a flat modifier for each burst (with wording that unfortunately doesn't suggest the cumulative nature of recoil), and even the general Recoil sub-section in the Ranged Combat section of SR4A doesn't get this specific.

It clearly says the first shot is unmodified by recoil. Not that it has a recoil modifier of zero. It is unmodified. The rest of the recoil rules regarding other modes of fire presumably operate on the same concept as Semi-Automatic fire, because they do not indicate otherwise.

~Umi

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

This is the clearest spot in the rules I've yet found regarding recoil on the first shot. The rules for bursts simply state a flat modifier for each burst (with wording that unfortunately doesn't suggest the cumulative nature of recoil), and even the general Recoil sub-section in the Ranged Combat section of SR4A doesn't get this specific.

It clearly says the first shot is unmodified by recoil. Not that it has a recoil modifier of zero. It is unmodified. The rest of the recoil rules regarding other modes of fire presumably operate on the same concept as Semi-Automatic fire, because they do not indicate otherwise.

~Umi

And yet, HIGH POWER AMMUNITION/CHAMBERING CHANGES THAT. Assuming the Weapon has such a modification. Why is that so diffidult?

[Umidori]

Because the High Power Ammunition ruling is so blastedly ambiguous about whether it is recoil or not. Why is THAT so difficult?

~Umi

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Because the High Power Ammunition ruling is so blastedly ambiguous about whether it is recoil or not. Why is THAT so difficult?

~Umi

It is BLATANTLY stated as a dice pool penalty due to Recoil (Imagine that, Recoil inflicts Dice Pool Penalties). It is blatantly stated that it applies whenever the weapon is fired. THIS INCLUDES THE FIRST SHOT. Some people say that it is ambiguous, but I do not see it that way. Now, You COULD infer that it is simply a Dice Pool modifier, that is not affected by RC. Your choice. Either way, you end up with the same Modifiers (when an HPC Weapon is fired), except that one can be offset by RC, and the other way cannot. Since, right in the description (that has been quoted more than once, but I will provide again) it states that the Penalty is due to recoil, well, then RC should apply. Here is the quote:

High-power rounds inflct a –2 dice pool penalty when fired due to excess recoil.

The only question is how you choose to interpret that. FriendoftheDork (and I imagine several others) sets it as a Dice Pool Penalty. We (and a few others) set it as a Recoil Penalty. Either method works. Choose one.

[Medicineman]

Why is that so diffidult?

The Modifier can only be applied AFTER the Action
OK, another example
"Friend in Melee" gives You a +1 Mod
Lets assume a new Modifier "Trollfriend in Melee "which gives a +2 Bonus
but You can get the Bonus only AFTER the Trollfriend joins the Melee
(Not if he merely says so)
the same with the High Power Ammo
The recoil only happens AFTER the first Bullet leaves the Barrel
Thats why You can't apply the mod for the first Bullet
If You say that the new modifier also counts BEFORE the Action happens than it would mean that Your breaking the Rules System

We (and a few others) set it as a Recoil Penalty. Either method works. Choose one.

For Me its a Recoil penalty, thats Why I say that it can be applied only after the first Bullet, because this first Bullets starts the recoil

With a Dance at the end of a Post
Medicineman

[Vilda]

Dice pool or recoil penalty, RAWs clearly states "–2 dice pool penalty when fired". Do you fire gun for first shot? Yes. Ergo you suffer -2 penalty. QED.

[Medicineman]

Dice pool or recoil penalty, RAWs clearly states "–2 dice pool penalty when fired". Do you fire gun for first shot? Yes. Ergo you suffer -2 penalty. QED.

Raw clearly states that the first shot is unmodified (by recoil)

Hough !
Medicineman

[Vilda]

Raw clearly states that the first shot is unmodified (by recoil)

And? Common practice is that later rules supersede former rules, simply because later items were not around when former statement was made. Also - not applicable. Statement: -2 penalty when fired. Meaning really trully every damn time that gorram gun is fired, no single exceptions.

[Umidori]

You're going to say that "War!", seriously, War! supercedes SR4A? Honestly?

It's not just that it's an incredibly problematic book - it is so very badly written, with very little quality control, as many of the recent books have been. But unlike other books which expand the rules or in some places override them, such as Arsenal or Street Magic or Runner's Companion or whichever other ones I may have missed, "War!" fails to explicitly state that it overrides the prior rules.

It needs clarified. It is NOT clear how it should be interpreted. You cannot POSSIBLY argue that it is cut and dry, and that ANY OF US (that includes me!) actually has a clue how it is truly meant to be read, because logically it could be read numerous different ways.

This NEEDS to be fixed - either in an official errata, or even in just some sort of creator statement somewhere. This level of sloppiness in the rules has been growing more and more prevalent in recent books, and it ought to be utterly unacceptable, especially given the way they're pricing these texts.

~Umi

[Vilda]

You're going to say that "War!", seriously, War! supercedes SR4A? Honestly?

I said nothing like that, we are arguing one single case and in this I believe it so. Also I said that it is common practice not necessarily a rule.

It needs clarified. It is NOT clear how it should be interpreted. You cannot POSSIBLY argue that it is cut and dry, and that ANY OF US (that includes me!) actually has a clue how it is truly meant to be read, because logically it could be read numerous different ways.

There are (AFAIK) two main points that are argued in this thread:
1) is -2 a dice pool or recoil modifier? I recoil, can it be mitigated by recoil compensation?
2) whatever it is, does it apply to first shot?

For 1) yes, we can argue that it is not clear and I currently have no stance on that. My two nuyens in this thread were for 2), which is clear as blue sky - statement from RAW is "High-power rounds inflict a –2 dice pool penalty when fired due to excess recoil. when fired" emphasis mine. You can not read this sentence any other way, can you? When fired means when the gun is fired and every time the gun is fired, therefore even on a first shot.

[Umidori]

The best reading of what is written there may indeed be "when fired" meaning every single time fired. But it is unfortunately modified by the words directly after it, "due to excess recoil".

Let's imagine there was a new type of blade weapon which was super sharp and the ruling said, "Extra Sharp Knives inflict a -2 dice pool penalty when a foe is struck due to excess wounding." If we read that statement with the same linguistic meaning that you are reading into the high power rule, we would assume that the knives always inflict the -2 dice pool penalty when a foe is struck. But the second part of the sentence, explaining why the penalty occurs, creates the ambiguity. What about if you hit them, but you don't beat their armor so it reverts to stn? What if they have hardened armor and they take no damage? What if they can't be wounded because they aren't living? How does this interact with normal wound modifiers?

And even if we assume that your reading of the rule as written is correct, can we safely assume that the rule itself isn't flawed? After all, given how often these ancillary texts mix up terms like Smartlink and Smartgun System, can we really assume that the person who wrote it actually understood the recoil rules properly and was purposefully intending to override them, AND did so without explaining that the new rule supercedes the old one and that this was done intentionally?

"High-power rounds inflict a –2 dice pool penalty when fired" would be fine on it's own, but when you add "due to excess recoil" to explain why the penalty occurs, that added reason needs to not contradict the standard operational parameters of the recoil system it is invoking as explanation. And if it does contradict the standard operational parameters, it needs to explicity state so.

~Umi

[KarmaInferno]

I, personally, think that it's meant to be a standard recoil modifier rather than a unique new rule, and it was just written very poorly.

There's a danger in reading too far into the specific precise wording of Shadowrun rules. And that's because some of the authors didn't write them with precision. In quite a few places in SR, things were worded in more casual "layman" language rather than specific precise terminology, with the (possibly erroneous) assumption that folks understood what was meant.




-k

[Umidori]

My point exactly.

~Umi

[Warlordtheft]

Going by the path of least modifying of the rules, I'd assume the -2 was per bullet rather than the normal -1. Which goes hand in hand with machine gun rounds causing a -2 per point of uncompensated recoil. Agreed though that the rules for it are murkey at best.

However going by this scenario:

So going by the rule a 10 shot burst on full auto with an assault rifle with gas vent three, and a stock would be a -10 or if just a flat additional -2 penalty a -7.

In a three shot burst for the same weapon it would either be a 0 or -2.
In a six shot burst for the same weapon it would either be a -2 or -4.

Either scenario, dicepools (unless in the high teens) will be going down significantly reduced once the compensation is surpased.

[Shortstraw]

I would look to the PJSS Elephant Rifle as firing both barrels is similiar to firing a more powerful round - even though the shots go off simultaneously the recoil still applies but it IS recoil.

[Umidori]

I disagree with comparing it to a more powerful round. The PJSS operates exactly like a Narrow Short Burst without enough bullets. You are suffering one point of recoil, and gaining one point of damage, because you are firing one bullet beyond the first.

Furthermore, the PJSS explicitly states in uncontestable wording that it IS recoil, and hence it is subject to all the normal rules of recoil, including both recoil compensation and an umodified first bullet.

~Umi

[_Pax._]

Also, no the PJSS is not firing both barrels at the exact same time. There will be at least a (small) fraction of a second - even just a few milliseconds - between the two. Too small for you to pick it out by sound or sight, unaided - but on, say, high-speed video? The difference would be easily discernible.

[Shortstraw]

Yes, in real life there would be delay however the rules state "at once" ie simultaneously.

[_Pax._]

Or perhaps when the rules say "at once", they mean "as part of the same action / attack" ...?

[ikarinokami]

Speaking just as a lawyer, i dont fire guns, but it seems to me, the clear intent and logical interpration of the rule, is that it adds a +2 modifier when ever recoil would come into play. so it should be +0 for the first shot, because by rule, recoil does not apply, and plus 3 for the second shot, because the high powered bullet is increasing the effect of the recoil modifier by +2.

[Umidori]

Well lawyers DO handle poor wording on a regular basis...

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

~Umi