High-Powered Chambering and ammo, Help with the rules Options

[_Pax._]

Speaking just as a lawyer, i dont fire guns, but it seems to me, the clear intent and logical interpration of the rule, is that it adds a +2 modifier when ever recoil would come into play. so it should be +0 for the first shot, because by rule, recoil does not apply, and plus 3 for the second shot, because the high powered bullet is increasing the effect of the recoil modifier by +2.

I submit to you, if they had meant for the penalty to be -3 ... they would have said "-3", not "-2". Or at least, have said "an additional -2".

[Umidori]

Arguably that "additional" could be implied, in that fact that the cause is "excess" recoil.

~Umi

[_Pax._]

Eh. I'd say that was stretching the point a fair bit, and reading a wholelot into it that just isn't there.

It'd also make a fairly basic "magnum"-style round, in a LIGHT PISTOL even, worse than the recoil of full-on HMG rounds, or Assault Cannons. Serious logical disconnect there, IMO.

[ikarinokami]

Arguably that "additional" could be implied, in that fact that the cause is "excess" recoil.

~Umi

agreed- excess in this context- clearly means "over and above". there are statutes written more vague than this. i think in the context of the rules as a whole and the way the system is designed, that the +2 additional recoil is what is intended rather than a +2 superceding recoil.

[Umidori]

It'd also make a fairly basic "magnum"-style round, in a LIGHT PISTOL even, worse than the recoil of full-on HMG rounds, or Assault Cannons. Serious logical disconnect there, IMO.

Except that reading it this way produces LESS recoil in your theoretical light pistol than any other way of reading it. If it instead applied a flat -2 to every shot, on top of recoil, including the first shot, without being able to be compensated... how is that anything but even MORE ridiculous?

Also, can you even put high-powered chambering on a light pistol to begin with?

~Umi

[SpellBinder]

Also, can you even put high-powered chambering on a light pistol to begin with?

By RAW, you could put high-powered chambering in a holdout.

High-Power Chambering: This modification alters the chamber of a firearm, allowing it to use larger high-power rounds (see High-Power Rounds, below). A weapon with this modification can only fire high-power rounds. High-power chambering is incompatible with the high velocity modification (p. 152, Arsenal).

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Except that reading it this way produces LESS recoil in your theoretical light pistol than any other way of reading it. If it instead applied a flat -2 to every shot, on top of recoil, including the first shot, without being able to be compensated... how is that anything but even MORE ridiculous?

Also, can you even put high-powered chambering on a light pistol to begin with?

~Umi

Yes, as indicated above. And not really all that ridiculous. American Derringer used to offer their signature Derringer in caliber .45-70 (Hell, they still might). Crazy, but there you go. The recoil to that was physically painful, even with the first round. Most people I witnessed shooting it flinched as they fired, before the round actually went off. That -2 (even applied to the 1st shot) seems pretty sane to me, as a rule goes.

[_Pax._]

Except that reading it this way produces LESS recoil in your theoretical light pistol than any other way of reading it. If it instead applied a flat -2 to every shot, on top of recoil, including the first shot, without being able to be compensated... how is that anything but even MORE ridiculous?

Um, what?

-0, -2 ... instead of -0, -1. If the gun is burst-fire capable, two bursts produce -4, -10 (total).

Also, can you even put high-powered chambering on a light pistol to begin with?

~Umi

Yep. .32 H&R Magnum, for example. Also, .221 Remington Fireball.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Um, what?

-0, -2 ... instead of -0, -1. If the gun is burst-fire capable, two bursts produce -4, -10 (total).


Yep. .32 H&R Magnum, for example. Also, .221 Remington Fireball.

See, at best I would read it as 0, -3 and at worst I would read it as -2, -3 depending upon whether the first round is affected. We include even the 1st round in that -2 calculation (so we go with the -2, -3 values for SA). A short burst would then be -4, -5 (for a total of -9, not -10).

[Vilda]

Most people I witnessed shooting it flinched as they fired, before the round actually went off. That -2 (even applied to the 1st shot) seems pretty sane to me, as a rule goes.

This is exactly why i too believe, that -2 modifier should apply even to the first shot. Larger calibers have that effect in real life, even when firing from calm steady stance.
SR4A may state, "first shot is unmodified", but (afaik) it does not state "always unmodified" and as High-power chambering was not around when SR4A was written, I have no problem of that rule superseding former rule.

[Umidori]

You may not have a problem with it Vilda, but I certainly do, and for some pretty damning reasons I've already mentioned.

1) The new rule is worded horrendously, with an unacceptable level of ambiguity, which is likely the result of poor quality control consistant with the rest of the book that it originates from.

2) The new rule fails to directly state that it supercedes or modifies any previous rules in any way, which is in direct contrast to previous situations of new rules superceding old ones. (See Street Magic, Runner's Companion, Arsenal, Augmentation, etc.)

3) Your "pre-emptive flinching" headcanon doesn't make any sense when expanded beyond a limited scope. Why should a high powered light pistol incur a greater penalty than a far more damaing but otherwise "normal" powered sporting rifle?

~Umi

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

You may not have a problem with it Vilda, but I certainly do, and for some pretty damning reasons I've already mentioned.

1) The new rule is worded horrendously, with an unacceptable level of ambiguity, which is likely the result of poor quality control consistant with the rest of the book that it originates from.

2) The new rule fails to directly state that it supercedes or modifies any previous rules in any way, which is in direct contrast to previous situations of new rules superceding old ones. (See Street Magic, Runner's Companion, Arsenal, Augmentation, etc.)

3) Your "pre-emptive flinching" headcanon doesn't make any sense when expanded beyond a limited scope. Why should a high powered light pistol incur a greater penalty than a far more damaing but otherwise "normal" powered sporting rifle?

~Umi

I'll bite...

Becasue a hig-powered Hand cannon has much less mass to compensate for the greater recoil... That's why. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
It is a fact of real life "High-Powered" pistols. I would MUCH rather fire a .50 Caliber Rifle than a .50 Caliber Pistol. Or a .45-70 Rifle vs. a .45-70 Derringer. The Rifle's have MUCH less recoil, comparatively.

This from personal experience.

[Yerameyahu]

The primary concern is just 'does this rule punish the user enough for using better ammo?' (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) You only bother answering 'does it SCIENCE?' afterward.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Color me a bit confused there Yerameyahu... Huh? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

I think that the -2 to each action (including the first shot) is adequate recompense for a High-Power Chambering. Hell, we have been using it that way since it came out, and sems to work pretty well.

[Yerameyahu]

My point is that, if you *want* the mechanics of 'preemptive flinching', it doesn't matter if you don't like the fluff. You can always fix the fluff, as you did in your response.

[Falconer]

You may not have a problem with it Vilda, but I certainly do, and for some pretty damning reasons I've already mentioned.

1) The new rule is worded horrendously, with an unacceptable level of ambiguity, which is likely the result of poor quality control consistant with the rest of the book that it originates from.

2) The new rule fails to directly state that it supercedes or modifies any previous rules in any way, which is in direct contrast to previous situations of new rules superceding old ones. (See Street Magic, Runner's Companion, Arsenal, Augmentation, etc.)

3) Your "pre-emptive flinching" headcanon doesn't make any sense when expanded beyond a limited scope. Why should a high powered light pistol incur a greater penalty than a far more damaing but otherwise "normal" powered sporting rifle?

~Umi

Oh my... you really don't have any clue whatsoever do you....

1) The ONLY part of the new rule which is ambiguous is the last phrase. The operative parts of the sentence are 100% clear... there's a penalty... there's a penalty on every shot at -2 dice. The only ambiguity is whether it's a *SEPARATE* recoil modifier or an untyped situational modifier. (as in separate... new... not due to number of rounds fired which was previously the ONLY source of recoil in the game).

2) It doesn't need to. It creates a new modifier... -2 dice when HPC gun is fired... simple. Add it to the ranged firing table as it's own line! (no different than arsenal adding large target... or small target).

3) You're firing a round which does as much damage as a sport rifle or assault rifle round... in a very very small lightweight and concealable pistol. Why is it doing so much damage... because instead of normal 'propellant' they use a high explosive to propel the bullet. It's not like an Ex round which actually fires a high explosive mini-nade. Are you TRYING to make our case for us?


Quite frankly.. I think the mod is kinda bleah. Though I think it would be a lot of fun on an assault cannon (given the lack of good AC ammo comparative to small arms (like say a barrett firing anti-vehicle -6AP rounds)... Overall I prefer APF (as silly as they are). But it wouldn't be the first time a dog of ammo type has been put in the game.

[KarmaInferno]

It's "not clear" in that it presents a differing wording than the standard rule, but given the history of Shadowrun this could mean it's an actual new rule, or it could also mean the author simply worded it wierdly and it's supposed to work like the the standard rule.

If it is supposed to be "new law", it should specifically and explicitly say that it is so and is a deliberate departure from the previous rule. That's just good game design practice.


-k

[Shortstraw]

Though I think it would be a lot of fun on an assault cannon (given the lack of good AC ammo comparative to small arms (like say a barrett firing anti-vehicle -6AP rounds)...

I just like the fact that after you add it to your assault cannon ammo is less than 1/5 the normal price so it takes 150 shots for an upgrade of a panther to pay for itself.

[Falconer]

Shortstraw... I'd multiply the cost of any ammo by 10 or 100 for an assault cannon before street price increases for legality/rarity.

In any case, I don't think it is available for an AC by RAW because they don't give an AC ammo cost. There's only two distinct round types listed for AC's.


The mod would make sense on slow firing big guns... since they really have no recoil to worry about, so it would provide some reason to add a little RC (assuming it is a recoil mod) while still keeping a SA/SS firing mode would be within reason for the extra damage. In that case, you're effectively looking at the same recoil across 2 shots as 2 short narrow bursts... for slightly better damage increase +2DV(post-threshold) vs +2DV-1AP (pre-threshhold). That's the reason I don't dismiss it as a completely bad mod just a poor choice for small arms.

[Shortstraw]

The high power mod does not restrict the weapon type and it explicitly states "A weapon with this modication can only fire high-power rounds."

High-Power Rounds +2 –1 B 20F 80¥ it's that simple (by RAW anyway and as we all know War! is the best written of all the source books).
Also note that the availability IS higher so you might have trouble finding the 150 rounds to get your money back.

[Warlordtheft]

I'll bite...

Becasue a hig-powered Hand cannon has much less mass to compensate for the greater recoil... That's why. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
It is a fact of real life "High-Powered" pistols. I would MUCH rather fire a .50 Caliber Rifle than a .50 Caliber Pistol. Or a .45-70 Rifle vs. a .45-70 Derringer. The Rifle's have MUCH less recoil, comparatively.

This from personal experience.

Yeah, some high caliber pistols are very hard on the hands. After the first shot you want something less likely to break your wrist.

[_Pax._]

The high power mod does not restrict the weapon type and it explicitly states "A weapon with this modication can only fire high-power rounds."

A poorly written description does not excuse this example of the worst kind of word-weasel-y rules lawyering around.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

A poorly written description does not excuse this example of the worst kind of word-weasel-y rules lawyering around.

Besides, an Assault Cannon can only fire Assault Cannon Rounds. HP Rounds are not AC rounds. Case solved. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
That is like saying you can add the Modification to a Grenade Launcher and then use the HP Rounds in place of Grenades. Sheer Lunacy. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[_Pax._]

Or worse: applying it to a LASER weapon ...

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Or worse: applying it to a LASER weapon ...

Heh... Indeed. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)