Need a refrence for ITnW Options

[Darksong]

people would be less surprised about the efficacy of SnS if they learned the secret: that each round contains a tiny, unlicensed nuclear accelerator (just don't cross the streams)

[Falconer]

p186: Spirit Combat
Note especially the words 'virtually immune" not full immunity.

Point him at Materialization power... which invokes Immunity to Normal Weapons... which then invokes the Hardened Armor power.

Appeal to consequences... if even his force 1 spirits are immune to the strongest attacks... why isn't it mages haven't wrecked the place and more importantly how is that fun for any player who isn't a mage?

Finally... the 2x4 method... take back behind woodshed and beat sense into... repeat until therapy no longer necessary.

[Neraph]

An Aztechnology F3a Flamethrower on a drone is also a good idea. 8P AP -half against up to two Spirits or as suppressive fire is nice and on a drone you do not need the exotic weapon skill. Against Water Spirits it is even 12P no armor and by RAW fire spirits have no special immunity against fire.

That's still one of my favorite things in the game.

[Blade]

Especially when the fire spirit's fire aura starts to burn everything around him, and the spirit is stuck in the middle "Help me, I'm on fire!!!"

[IKerensky]

Well, once more time we enjoy of SR4A rules are that much more superior to... err...

Hum I couldn't even say that they are superior to having no rules at all as they are so messy we HAVE to build rules on our own to make them work. And they do a poor job in simulating SR universe as described in supplement and novels. Make you wonder if the rulebook is canon at all.

[darthmord]

Well, once more time we enjoy of SR4A rules are that much more superior to... err...

Hum I couldn't even say that they are superior to having no rules at all as they are so messy we HAVE to build rules on our own to make them work. And they do a poor job in simulating SR universe as described in supplement and novels. Make you wonder if the rulebook is canon at all.

Honestly, the core book is based on a whole lot of assumptions of rules from the previous versions. I have found several instances where SR4/SR4A rules make sense when you apply them in the face of SR1-SR3 rules. But by themselves, they don't make near as much sense.

Sadly (or happily, depending on your point-of-view) that implies the previous BBBs from the earlier editions are required reading.

[Dakka Dakka]

Honestly, the core book is based on a whole lot of assumptions of rules from the previous versions. I have found several instances where SR4/SR4A rules make sense when you apply them in the face of SR1-SR3 rules. But by themselves, they don't make near as much sense.

Care to give examples?

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Care to give examples?

Please?

[Neraph]

Honestly, the core book is based on a whole lot of assumptions of rules from the previous versions. I have found several instances where SR4/SR4A rules make sense when you apply them in the face of SR1-SR3 rules. But by themselves, they don't make near as much sense.

Sadly (or happily, depending on your point-of-view) that implies the previous BBBs from the earlier editions are required reading.

I have no idea where you get this from. I've only seen SR4 books and I don't see anything like what you're claiming.

[Dakka Dakka]

I have no idea where you get this from. I've only seen SR4 books and I don't see anything like what you're claiming.

I have seen SR3 books and the only thing I can remember is that without previous editions and only the core book (no street magic) there is no indication that glass is opaque on the astral plane. I cannot say though that either interpretation "makes more sense".

[Warlordtheft]

That's still one of my favorite things in the game.

Yeah, I find that sometimes common sense is a better rule to go by. Rules lawyers are to be shot on sight.

[_Pax._]

Eh. Find out what KIND of rules lawyer they are, before shooting.

Some (like myself) have successfully channeled their lawyer-y impulses away from "gain an advantage" and towards "maintain a consistent environment". That is to say, we're sticklers for "if action Y worked X way under Z circumstances once, then all else being the same, it should do so twice (and beyond)". (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

See, I have in fact been called "the kind of rules-lawyer a GM should _want_ to have around, because he'll remember positives for the NPCs and negatives for his own character, as fast as he remembers the stuff that's good for him." And that was a shadowrun GM who said that, actually. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) (One that I have sorely missed over the past 17 years.)

[Krishach]

not a ton to add to this, but since it sounds like you have a stubborn mage, have him read the Hardened Armor critter power, 20th ed pg 295, that specifically states that only damage not exceeding the armor value MODIFIED BY ARMOR PENETRATION is ignored. That, plus the verbatim on the Immunity Power above, is flat out proof that spirits that have materialized can be damaged by normal weapons.

In short, it sounds like he's trying to stand on his interpretation of fluff for his own benefit contrary to rules.

Also, not to tread on toes, but the immunity to normal weapons (quoted above) specifically states it is immune to any weapon that is not magical in nature, specifically mentioning weapon foci, spells, adept powers, and critter powers. This would mean immunity to lasers, electrical strikes (otherwise a taser would work wonderfully), and flamethrowers, since they are non-magical weapons by book rules.

So, based on rulebook wording, SnS can hurt a spirit, and hardened armor rules would grant twice its magic (then halved due to laser) before it has to roll.

As for his refusal to believe in forums, I in particular agree with him. It's easy for one person to say something incorrect and others to agree. So, pictures or it didn't happen, in a sense. So have him read the above mentioned rules, and more importantly, have the GM read them too.

This post has been edited by Krishach: Jun 7 2012, 09:49 PM