On combat...the dodge Options

[Caine Hazen]

So my players didn't like the whole "easy to dodge" TN4 from their combat pools. They felt that noone should have an equal chance to dodge a worldclass sniper and a punk ganger..so I decided to post my little house rule on it for you guys...what do ya think:

Dodge TN = ranks in skill for attacker

Thus someone with 8 dice in pistols will be less likely to miss (due to the experience they have with shotting) vs the punk ganger with a 2 in pistols...comments/critizims/flames?

[Sphynx]

I don't like it at all. May be just me though, but I think it's perfect as it is. Someone going pure defensive (which is what a full combat pool allocation to dodge is) will most likely dodge any bullet. They still need to roll more successes, and since most people put alot of Combat Pool into attacking, and combat pool isn't refreshed per attack, but per phase, even 2 seperate attacks on a single target can pretty much assure they don't dodge enough of either...

Sphynx

[ondali]

so you think that having 8 dice in skill should count double?
first for the dodge TN and later for the number of succesess ?

[KillJuice]

I like the rules the way they stand for the most part. If the sniper fails to land more successes than the 2 rank ganger, thats the snipers problem.

If there was any flaw in dodging, it would be in full-auto heavy weapons fire. Now your looking at an equal chance to avoid 1 success from a hold out and 1 success from a 15 shot Vindicator.

[Austere Emancipa...]

[ShadowGhost]

[Moon-Hawk]

It is already harder to dodge the world class sniper because the sniper has more successes. It's fine as is.

heh, "ranks" :S

[Egon]

I am not sure but it sounds like every one is only using combat pool for dodging test. If your are say a sniper or just going first with little threat coming later use the combat pool on the attack test.

Sniper hiding on roof 400m from target isn't getting attacked so he would use all the combat pool on the attack skill 8 + pool 7 = 15 dice and a vary bad day for what ever is getting shot.

Also you might want to look at the surprise rules. You only get to use a % of combat pool based on the PER test. So if the ganger comes up behind you at a busy club and tries shoots you from behind while you are dancing you may only get 20% or 40% of your pool, depending on how hot the person you are dancing with is. :)

[ShadowGhost]

And don't forget, the world class sniper has surprise on his side. If the target doesn't know he's there, in a reaction test the sniper has a TN of 2, the victim a minimum of 4+ (GM discretion).

Personally I use 2 tests for surprise:

1 Perception test for the victim(s), Tn 6 or more (depending on cover, stealth, invisibility etc of ambusher).

The initial TN for Surprise will vary depending on situation. Waiting in a room to shoot someone who opens the door might be a 6. Sniping someone from 1/2 mile away would be 10.

Each success on the Perception test reduces the TN for surprise to a minimum of four.

Then roll reaction against the TN for Surprise test.


If the vic loses the surprise test, they have no combat pool to dodge with.

[TinkerGnome]

Not to inject realism, but a sniper has a really hard hitting a target who knows that he's there and is actively avoiding him. Kind of the point of the whole surprise thing which affects your ability to dodge at all. Snipers tend to rely on surprise to get their shots, not just skill.

[Arethusa]

I have to go and take a look at the surprise rules (and, hell, should know them already), but I had always been under the assumption that if you caught someone completely unaware, he or she didn't get a surprise test, and, in the right conditions, not even a dodge test.

Anyone have some page numbers I can reference?

[ShadowGhost]

Surprise - page 109 SR3

Surprise is a reaction test. Those who roll the most successes can take action against those who roll fewer successes.

Characters are "surprised" by an opponent if they rolled fewer successes on the reaction test than the opponent.

There's a half page of info on surprise.

[Backgammon]

In our games, we use have a dodge pool equal to your reaction. That frees up a lot more dice, and it makes sense that a wired sammy can more easily dodge than a non-wired person.

[blakkie]

[Rev]

With a real sniper situation the target would not even get to make a reaction test. You might give them a (very hard) perception test to see if they get a reaction test, but generally they just get shot and cannot use combat pool dice to dodge or to resist damage.

[blakkie]

[Rev]

Yea but the archtypical sniper situation is that they don't know there is a sniper in the area.

Once they do know then they are probably in initiative anyway and suprise isn't important. Sure they can dodge then.

You very rarely get to dodge the snipers first shot, but you almost always get to dodge his second shot. Unless you are dead by that time.

[Method]

Some random thoughts:

First of all, it is entirely unrealistic that anyone, no matter how fast, can reliably dodge any kind of gun fire in a combat situation. The whole idea is silly, and trying to apply realism to a wholly artificial game mechanic just doesn't work. (now, having said that, I will try to apply realism to this wholly artificial game mechanic.....) :wobble:

Second, in a real sniper situation the target is usually dead before the *sound* of the round even reaches him, meaning there is no way, no matter how fast you are, to detect, and much less dodge, the incoming round. Your only hope would be detecting the sniper before he fires. I personally think that should be a perception test with a relatively high TN (assuming any sniper worth the title would know how to conceal himself). You could argue for a surprise test, but I would still give the target higher TNs.

And third, if you want a different rule you could assume that the power of the weapon is an abstract measure of muzzle velocity. The TN to dodge could be equal to the power or you could use the base TN of 4 and create a modifier scale (1-3= +1 / 4-6=+2 / etc). That way it would be considerably more difficult to dodge a much faster .50 cal round (power = 14) than a relatively slow holdout pistol round (power = 4).

[Arethusa]

You misunderstand the dodge test. This isn't The Matrix and we're not agents dodging bullets. The dodge test is an abstract measure of your ability to realistically dodge fire, and, in real life, dodging bullets is about being whereever a gun is not pointed when it goes off byt whatever means are at your disposal.

As for a sniper situation, you just don't get a dodge test or a surprise test. That's just how it is. If the sniper does his job right, you're dead before you hit the ground. If not, you're at least in pain or running from further pain. But none of this crap about dodging something you could never see. And let's not get into subsonic sniping.

[Method]

I fully understand the concept of a dodge test in shadowrun. I was playing this game back when there was a dodge pool!

My point is that in RL it is unrealistic to think that you can dodge a bullet, period. If its on its way to where you are, you cannot think or react fast enough to get somewhere else before it hits you. Now, with cyberware you might have a chance, but then SR does not require any cyber to dodge bullets. If I had a RXN of one I could theoretically dodge a bullet.

In real life your only hope is to be moving *before* the round is fired such that the shooter is actually *aiming* at a spot where you *were*, or to use cover. In either case I wouldn't call that dodging.

You will note that there isn't a modern military in the world that tries to teach its troops to dodge bullets- they teach them to use cover and/or keep moving.

[Lilt]

[Arethusa]

Yeah, I understand all that. What I'm saying is that mechanically, while the dodge test comes after the round has been fire, for purposes of realism, it has to happen before the round has been fired, even if the rules work backwards to preserve combat pool and ensure playability. In this case, dodging bullet is keeping moving and finding impromptu cover (eg dodge test can throw you behind a filing cabinet or desk).

At least, that's how I've been reading it. If it's really intended to let you dodge bullets, Matrix style, I'm going to have to stick the dodge test in front of the attack test.

[Method]

Perhaps the root of this problem is the word "dodge". To give some definitions:

dodge \"däj\ n 1 : an act of evading by sudden bodily movement 2 : an artful device to evade, deceive, or trick 3 : EXPEDIENT
©2000 Zane Publishing, Inc. and Merriam-Webster, Incorporated. All rights reserved.

Note the use of the word “device” in the second definition

de•vice \di-"vïs\ n 1 : SCHEME, STRATAGEM 2 : a piece of equipment or a mechanism for a special purpose 3 : DESIRE, INCLINATION <left to my own ~s> 4 : an emblematic design
©2000 Zane Publishing, Inc. and Merriam-Webster, Incorporated. All rights reserved.

To me dodging involves a conscious, calculated or deliberate effort on the part of the target to deal with a specific, in coming (i.e. on its way) threat.

To answer Lilt's question (how is avoiding where someone is aiming not dodging by your definition?): such movement, while motivated by the knowledge that someone is shooting at you is not a direct response to a specific bullet in flight (dodging). It is "blind" movement which is just as likely to take you *into* the flight path of the round as it is to take you *out* of it.

In RL there is no time for a "if the bullet goes right, I'll jump left" thought process, or "I’ll stay here until he shoots and then move". You simple move and hope that his aim and your location do not coincide. To put it in a different context: to simply flail one's arms in the hopes of hitting one's opponent can hardly be called a punch.

To truly "dodge" a specific bullet in flight one would have to know exactly where the shooter was aiming, be capable of complex ballistic calculations to ensure the bullet's flight path and be quick enough to move off that path.

At any rate (and to bring us back on topic) my purpose was to say that I can see where his players dislike the dodge rules. One has to suspend their disbelief when considering the rules as they apply to SR's combat system. And if he wants a slightly more "realistic" rule it makes more sense to base the TN for the dodge test on the speed (muzzle velocity/power level) of the round.

[Austere Emancipa...]

So maybe we could call it the "Tactical Movement And Positioning Test" instead of the "Dodge Test", and then everyone would be happy?

[Method]