Counterspelling Options

[Misdemeanor]

I remember seeing as early as 4th edition that counterspelling can be used to counter critter powers, however I cant seem to locate the rule in 20th. Could some one point me in the correct Direction?

[Nikoli]

So far, only Innate Spell can be counterspelled unless it's a spirit being used to sustain a spell.

[Krishach]

yeah, counterspelling can only counter Innate spells (like the Spirit of Man's Innate Spell tells you to pick an existing spell from the summoner) and spells from the sorcery skill, including spells being maintained by spirits, mages, sustaining foci, and quickening/anchoring. It makes Critter Powers something far more dangerous as a result, especially from intelligent sources, like HMHVV infected powers.

[pbangarth]

Yup, just spells, including those cast by critters.

[Umidori]

Makes various Adept Powers which give you dice against things like "mind altering magic" more valuable, as they state they do in fact count against things like critter powers. It might be more efficient against Mages to simply get Spell Resistance, but these specialized powers give you fuller coverage for their specific kind of magic.

~Umi

[Falconer]

We've experimented with a HOUSE RULE, just so there's no confusion that it's an actual rule.

Use the Banishing skill as counterspelling for critter powers. It makes the skill actually valuable and have a point. Net result tended to be that people got the entire conjuring group, rather than only summoning & binding and ignoring banishing.

Give it a try if your group is finding that spirit/critter powers are a bit overpowering. YMMV but it works reasonably well.

[Psikerlord]

Quite like that... Banishing/Critter defence

[Umidori]

That... actually sounds pretty brilliant.

You're absolutely right about how useless Banishing is. It's often far easier just to overpower a spirit than to banish it - instead of spending points on a special skill that only works on spirits, you instead put those points into being better able to kill EVERYTHING, spirit or not.

Astral Combat has a similar problem, in that the only people who are ever going to use it are Magicians who astrally project, and at that point they might as well just cast a mana spell instead.

~Umi

[pbangarth]

You're absolutely right about how useless Banishing is. It's often far easier just to overpower a spirit than to banish it - instead of spending points on a special skill that only works on spirits, you instead put those points into being better able to kill EVERYTHING, spirit or not.

How do you 'overpower' a spirit?

A) firepower -- countered by the ItNW just about everyone complains about (at Force X 2); the higher the spirit Force the far worse this gets; works only on the material plane except for weapon foci which do ignore ItNW but require melee combat skills

B) spells -- countered by... Counterspelling, possibly augmented by Shielding, either the summoner's or in some cases the spirit's own; the higher the spirit's Force, the worse this gets; negatively affected by mana barriers like wards

C) Banishing -- affected by neither ItNW nor Counterspelling, but affected by the summoner's Magic Attribute and the Spirit's Force X 1; the higher the spirit's Force, the resistance gets worse but the number of hits needed tends to get fewer; not affected by mana barriers like wards

It doesn't look to me like Banishing is all that much worse than either of the other two.

[phlapjack77]

It doesn't look to me like Banishing is all that much worse than either of the other two.

I think it's the idea that the drain for Banishing can be really high, when something like casting a spell at a spirit can have the same effect, much lower drain, and the spell is useful in other situations.

[pbangarth]

I think it's the idea that the drain for Banishing can be really high, when something like casting a spell at a spirit can have the same effect, much lower drain, and the spell is useful in other situations.

Yes, that is important to consider. But it is one factor out of many. As an addendum, I forgot to mention that Banishing-then-Summoning is the one way one can take over someone else's spirit, even one of a type one normally can't summon.

I don't see Banishing as being necessarily better, but neither do I see it as 'useless'.

[Critias]

It doesn't look to me like Banishing is all that much worse than either of the other two.

For the sake of argument, we'll say it's not -- but it is the only single-task option you mentioned. If you are good at shooting spirits, you're good at shooting at anything. If you're good at casting spells at spirits, you're good at casting spells at anything. If you're good at banishing spirits, you're good at...uhh...banishing spirits. And that's all.

[phlapjack77]

Yes, that is important to consider. But it is one factor out of many. As an addendum, I forgot to mention that Banishing-then-Summoning is the one way one can take over someone else's spirit, even one of a type one normally can't summon.

I don't see Banishing as being necessarily better, but neither do I see it as 'useless'.

Yeah, I don't totally disagree with you. But compared to other options, it seems really "sub-optimal" as a skill choice. If you try to banish a bound spirit, then the spirit resists with Force + summoner's Magic. Gets harsh really quickly. You would take this skill solely for flavor.

And I'm not against taking skills for flavor, all for it really. But it would be nice to have both, a flavorful skill that's useful too (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

I like the idea above of having Banishing also act as counterspelling-for-critter-powers. Or maybe the idea that Banishing drain is straight hits, not hits * 2. Or maybe Banishing drain is F/2.

[Mantis]

You also use Banishing as a Magician or Mystic Adept to make an attack of will against a spirit. This uses your Charisma as your base damage and your Will as the base stat. It also ignores the immunity to normal weapons power. We find it useful when facing spirits with Magical Guard or when we just don't have other options (too much drain or background count, especially aspected). Sure, you may not have as many dice to make this attack but it is another option.

[Falconer]

pb:
Now look at the resistance role for BOUND spirits... they commonly get more dice to resist banishing than to summon then in the first place. And binding is done at the summoners convenience when he can take some downtime to handle the drain... banishing doesn't have that option since it's done in the heat of combat, but the drain is exactly the same as trying to bind it in the first place. Unbound spirits don't banish either... they owe no services. Even free spirits get banishing resistance.

If the spirit gets 2 successes it normally does more drain to you, than if you had just stunbolted it in the first place as well. So like others say it's normally easier to just blast the spirit into smithereens than to attempt to banish it.


Umidori:
I don't think astral combat is a problem really... a mage needs a point or two to defend himself (I normally get 1 or 2 ranks with a specialization in defense). Toss on an increase wil spell in a focus (increase wil, while projecting, increase ref while in meat). And a mage can match most spirits especially with a touch of edge in defending themselves in astral. Then just like you say, a mage nukes the target with a spell. But still having that increased wil helps a lot on astral (resisting spells, soaking astral damage, astral combat contest of wills).

[Umidori]

Wait, what? As I understand it (and taking a quick glimpse right now at the SR4A Astral Combat rules), you don't use your Astral Combat skill to defend on the astral - it's only usage is to attack. Defending simply uses the Astral Equivalent of your physical attribute, in this case Intuition standing in for Reaction.

Am I missing something somewhere?

~Umi

[Aerospider]

Unbound spirits don't banish either... they owe no services.

How's that now? How do you get an unbound spirit to do anything without services?

[phlapjack77]

I think he means wild spirits? Non-summoned spirits

[Falconer]

Yeah, wild spirits... free spirits... get banishing resistance. (a bunch of freebie services == edge... you need to blow through refreshed daily).


Umi: yeah... astral combat is one of the worst explained things in the book... the GM for the only game I'm in right now just uses willpower for everything (sometimes I forget that is a houserule). Basically astral combat is treated like a physical attack (melee) only astral.

dual-natured spirits/characters would defend and attack with willpower + astral combat.
projecting mages/spirits would attack with logic+astral combat, intuition+astral combat.

Even going back to SR1... defending against astral was linked to willpower not your astral stats.

[pbangarth]

pb:
Now look at the resistance role for BOUND spirits... they commonly get more dice to resist banishing than to summon then in the first place. And binding is done at the summoners convenience when he can take some downtime to handle the drain... banishing doesn't have that option since it's done in the heat of combat, but the drain is exactly the same as trying to bind it in the first place. Unbound spirits don't banish either... they owe no services. Even free spirits get banishing resistance.

If the spirit gets 2 successes it normally does more drain to you, than if you had just stunbolted it in the first place as well. So like others say it's normally easier to just blast the spirit into smithereens than to attempt to banish it.

I agree with you that in many cases it is more painful to Banish than to Spellcast. I argue that there are more ways to confound Spellcasting and physical attack than Banishing. Visibility, Counterspelling, barriers, etc. Those ways are readily available to opponents of all sorts, and really should be part of the repertoire of any team, corp or facility. Can you use guns and combat spells more often? Absolutely. Will you be glad you took Banishing (at half the price of other, single Skills if you bundle it into the Sorcery Group) when the other forms have been thwarted? Damn right.

[Speed Wraith]

Astral Combat has a similar problem, in that the only people who are ever going to use it are Magicians who astrally project, and at that point they might as well just cast a mana spell instead.

My leopard-shifter adept (and I'm sure many, many other dual-natured critters) would like to disagree with you on the word, "only". (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[Umidori]

I always forget that shifters are dual natured. But to be fair, shifters aren't "people". (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

~Umi

[Misdemeanor]

I always forget that shifters are dual natured. But to be fair, shifters aren't "people". (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

~Umi

LOL

[Speed Wraith]

I always forget that shifters are dual natured. But to be fair, shifters aren't "people". (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

~Umi

To be fair, in his eyes you're either predator or prey, and metahumans are, for the most part, prey. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[Irion]

Yes, there are Situations, where bannishing is better to get rid of a spirit. BUT (and this one is big one) in those situations you are mostly fucked anyway.
Yes, if a mage with the shilding metamagic is protecting his spirit high force spirit, which also has counterspelling, you have to banish. (Denpending on the question how the teamworktest gets handled it can be even worse (if the lower dicepool is always supporting))

But yeah, that means you can't cast spells at all, while there is an enemy mage, who can burn you to hell. This situation also implies that there is no way to "shoot the mage in the face". (Maybe he is hiding behind a high force barrier and bullet prove glass)

While the high force spirit (summond) with couterspelling is also often more vulnerable to banishing than to "stunbolt" it is not by much. (Considering the fact, that your spellcasting pool is normally higher than you bannishing pool and that you need only ONE NET-HIT for the spellcasting to work. While bannishing may even take several)

Than there is the issue with drain. The good old stunbolt has no problem with drain. Force 12 only gives you 5 points of drain.
Bannishing a force 9 spirit hits you with 6 point on avarage. (If you are unlucky above 10 points are possible. Knocking you on your ass)

So yes, the force 9 spirit rolls 18 dice against your spell and only 9 dice against your bannishing attempt. Thats true. The chance he will resist your spell is much higher than the chane, he won't be "injured" by your banishing. But how much help it is, depends on the mage who called upon the spirit.
Had a good role, used edge, aspected-Bd, high dice pool and he two will have a lot of net-hits. (Assuming he did not use any services)

Even worse it gets for bound spirits (don't even thing about great form spirit with banishing resistance).
Those things get hits out of summoning AND binding. So if you are not dealing with a weak mage, you won't get rid of the spirit on the first try.