Need your oppinion, Magician vs. Mystic Adept Options

[Kyrel]

I'd very much like your oppinion on the following question:

Which type of character is generally more useful in an initially 400BP game. The Magician or the Mystic Adept?

The reason I'm asking, is because I'm sitting and trying to create a character for a new game, and I'm having a bit of trouble trying to decide whether to go for a Mystic Adept, or a full Magician. Basically I can't decide right now if the access to the astral space is worth an additional 5BP, and the loss of access to the Adept Powers. What are your oppinions on this people? And why?

The game starts tomorrow evening (June 11th), so quick replies are needed.

[Edit: SR4A rules]


/Kyrel

[UmaroVI]

Whether mystic adepts are useful in the first place depends on whether you use the SR4A or the SR4+FAQ version of how they work; namely, do they use Magic for everything but determining PP and the dice pool on Mag-linked skills, or do they check caster magic for all purposes related to Magician-only skills (max force, overcasting, etc) and PP for everything adept-related (max ranks in powers, etc).

The first version makes Mystic Adepts a potentially good option on par with Magicians. The second makes them suck.

Assuming the first version, it really depends what you want to do. Mystic adepts are not half magician, half adept (well, they can be, but those guys suck); every effective way of making a mystic adept work is going to be using magic to enhance doing something. For example, a mystic adept face who uses Kinesics + Heightened Concentration + Increase Charisma, or someone like the Transhuman Mystic (see the first link of my sig) who uses spell buffs to enhance physical combat.

Magicians are generally a lot easier to make effective, so if you are on a short deadline I would definitely go magician.

[Neraph]

I prefer Mystic Adepts to the point where if I play something with magic, I play them. With the proper drugs or metatype options you can get Astral Perception and Projection without issue and save yourself 5 BP doing so.

[DireRadiant]

If you can only have one, a Full Magician because of the ability to go astral.

[Yerameyahu]

Honestly, it seems so incredibly inconvenient to get fake Perception or Projection (via drugs or metatype options, ugh), compared to 5 measly BP to just get the real thing at the beginning. I feel like the real tradeoff isn't BP, but adept powers. :/

This is as it should be, though: the point of mysads isn't to have (all) their cake and eat it too. That's not fair. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

I think the system could do a better job letting people choose (and pay for!) the various magic powers they want (summoning, casting, adept powers, perception, projection, etc.). SR3 did a little better, for example. Instead, it seems like mysad is just the tweaker's option, as opposed to a real fluff choice.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

More often than not, I choose Mystic Adept over the True Magician. Seems to fit my concepts much better, though not always.

[Krishach]

in addition to being personal preference, in my opinion the biggest question is unanswered: what are you trying to do with your caster?

This is not as straightforward a question as it might seem. There are dozens of caster roles, from non-combat support, to spirit specialist, combat mage, investigator, etc. And some have a better long-range outlook than others in terms of maximum potential.

There are VERY few adept abilities that cannot be simulated or matched equivalently with a spell. So, the things that may matter the most: You CANNOT Astrally project as a Mystic adept without drugs. You also have to spend 1 full adept power point for the sole purpose of astrally perceiving without taking a critter or dual-natured race setup. So, your magic will likely be gimped.

Mystic Adepts have the long-term possibility of using adept powers to augment themselves in play without having to sustain a spell. Sustained, or even quickened, spell upgrades can be dispelled. I prefer mystic adepts for this reason. Don't forget you can Initiate and use your meta-magic pick to gain another point of adept powers. For this reason, Mystic Adepts can play an in-your-face game (obviously) much better than magicians. And never ever forget the WONDERFUL power Mind-Over-Matter. Best Mystic Adept power ever.

In my opinion, Mystic Adepts have the best long-term outlook because they can pull from both worlds. They are hampered short term by some inability to do what magicians can without careful planning and creative thinking. Magicians cannot permanently buff themselves nor select from adept powers.

As it sounds like you may (sorry for assuming) not be completely familiar with the magician vs mystic adept system, I'd recommend a mage. There is little drawback, especially short term, and IMO mystic adepts require some careful planning and playing to keep up with mages.

[Samoth]

Mystic Adept always made more sense to me because I never really cared about Astrally projecting.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Mystic Adept always made more sense to me because I never really cared about Astrally projecting.

Indeed... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Kyrel]

Thanks for the different comments people. I've ultimately ended up deciding on going with the Mystic Adept. There are a couple of Adept Powers that I want long term, and ultimately the changes I would have had to make to the character, in order to get the BP to add up with a full Mage, would have been a worse fit, with regards to the character vision, than with the Mystic Adept. The loss of Astral Projection and Astral Perception (short term) is unfortunate, but I'm willing to live with that.

[Aerospider]

And never ever forget the WONDERFUL power Mind-Over-Matter. Best Mystic Adept power ever.

Is that its actual name? Can't seem to find it.

[Umidori]

It's in the forbidden book - "War!".

*shudders*

Basically it lets you use a single Mental Attribute in place of a single Physical Attribute (per the Astral Attributes table*) for any tests.

*(Charisma to Strength, Logic to Agility, Willpower to Body, and Intuition to Reaction.)

~Umi

[Yerameyahu]

Basically, it's absurd. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Umidori]

A pixie with Body 1, Willpower 12, and Mind Over Matter can shrug off hits like a troll AND resist magic of all kinds. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/question.gif)

~Umi

[_Pax._]

Which type of character is generally more useful in an initially 400BP game. The Magician or the Mystic Adept?

Both. Neither. Either or.

Key question to ask your GM is, how does he handle maximum Adept ratings, and Spell maximum Force ratings, with the "split" magic attribute?

Some will say "A 3-3 split works like 3 magic, for either one". This makes Magician-Adepts suck, and you shouldn't play one.

Some will say "A 3-3 split still has a Magic Rating of 6 - they just only get 3 dice towards spellcasting from it, and only 3 power points too." This makes Magician-adepts competitive enough that it becomes purely a matter of taste and style.

...

As for access to astral space: you could always play a race that is Dual Natured, or gets Astral Perception for free (i.e., Pixies). Or burn the Power Point getting it as an Adept ability.

...

A Pixie with a Charisma tradition and softcapped drain attributes (Cha 7, Will 7) is very very good at resisting drain. Gotta be careful overcasting (limited Body), but otherwise ... ZOOM.

[Yerameyahu]

… It's clearly not 'neither'. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

[Aerospider]

… It's clearly not 'neither'. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

On the contrary - it can't be both.

[Aerospider]

Basically, it's absurd. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Yeah, Jesus, that's insane.

Thanks DS for perpetually reminding me I don't want that book!

[Irion]

Depends on how you handle the thing with the split magic attribute.

If you count the full magic rating for everything, than mytic adepts are great, espacially if you use the optional rule for getting one powerpoint for every initiation instead of a metamagic technique. (Knowing that most metamagic techniques only get really good, if you have a high metamagic raiting. +3 Points to draintest is good, but +6 is an other level. Same thing with masking. Yeah, masking is nice, just does not help shit if everybody looks through it)

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Yeah, Jesus, that's insane.

Thanks DS for perpetually reminding me I don't want that book!

It is not as bad as everyone makes it out to be. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Yerameyahu]

Aerospider, that's not 'on the contrary', though. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) It's clearly not neither… *and* it cannot be both. Hehe.

[Neraph]

It is not as bad as everyone makes it out to be. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

I agree. There's a lot of good things out of it, like submersible aircraft carriers and submersible supertankers (tee hee - still love that misprint). But no, MRSI, battle rifles (to a degree), the spell-smartlink, and other things make it a good buy.

[Yerameyahu]

MRSI is one of the exemplar *good* things? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

MRSI is one of the exemplar *good* things? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

Well, MRSI exists today. It should exist on a battlefield. So its inclusion in WAR! makes a bit of sense. What does not make a lot of sense its its inclusion for use on the personal weapon scale. *shrug*

[Aerospider]

Aerospider, that's not 'on the contrary', though. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) It's clearly not neither… *and* it cannot be both. Hehe.

Sure it is. 'Neither is generally more useful' works fine, right?
As a sentence at least ...