Shapechange spell changes, 'cause it should be better Options

[Bearclaw]

OK, I like the idea of a shape change spell, but I think they nerfed the idea too much. So, here's how we do it at my table.
Everything works the same except, instead of there being a limit of 2 body plus or minus, there is no limit. But, the difference in body becomes the threshold.
So, if a body 6 troll wants to turn into a body 1 sparrow, he needs at least 5 hits on the test. Basically, it gives a little more utility to a utility spell.

[Umidori]

I'm not sure you realize just how ridiculous Shapechange can already get.

So you pick any critter with a body within 2 points of your own. You then replace your physical attributes with the critter's physical attributes, but you also get +1 to every physical attribute per hit on the spellcast. Your mental attributes remain unchanged, you gain the natural abilities of the critter, and you can still cast spells as a critter.

So an ork mage with most of his points in mental attributes can turn himself into one of the various Great Cats. Rolling 12 dice and getting an average of 4 hits, he ends up with Body 10, Agility 9, Reaction 8, Strength 9, mental stats as usual, and a Natural Weapon (Claws/Bite: DV 5P, 0AP). Granted he can't speak, wear armor, or use weapons, but for a primarily mental-attribute character those are very respectable physical stats. More importantly, those kinds of stat bonuses without using Shapechange could only be possible if you combine numerous sustained Health Spells to buff someone up.

Now, how about we look at a buffed up unarmed combat troll with a body of 10? Same spellcasting roll, same 4 hits, and now he's an Elephant with Body 16, Agility 8, Reaction 7, Strength 20, mental stats as usual, +2 reach (for +1 net), and Natural Weapon (Tusks: DV 12P, -2AP.) Maybe not the nastiest troll you'll ever face in melee, but still pretty respectable for what you're starting with. The trick is that all the troll needs to have points in is his Body of 10 and his combat skills. No cyberware or bioware to get, no investment of karma in your base attributes, even the lack of armor is mitigated significantly by his increased Body.

And this is all merely assuming average rolls for a spellcasting dice pool of 12. Throw in some initiation grades, a spellcasting focus, a bit of Edge, and a bit of luck, and you could be walking around with some crazy physical attributes.

Overall, I categorize Shapechange as one of the "Problematic" corebook spells, along with Turn to Goo, Ignite, and a few others. And while situational, I wouldn't call it a mere "utility" spell - not by a long shot.

~Umi

[Irion]

@Umidori
Actually, his idea would not be that bad, for it would reduce the Net-hits, which are basically the thing making the spell so strong.
If a Body 1 pixie is turning in an body 3 fox/hound/wolf whatever and having 5 hits, she gets the ubercritter on cram.
With his rule, the pixie would only get 3 to all attributes instead of 5.

Still, beeing a big critter is not that great in the end. The thing is, that critters have NO AUGMENTED ATTRIBUTES. Thats whats making the spell so good.
It is the body 3 mage turning into a small bird(body 1) or something like that. Beeing a tiny target, with crunched up reaction, but still medium body (3-4), thanks to the spell, while making heads explode with magic..
Combine this with a technomancer and a spirit for concealment and those two can just walk in ANYWHERE. Give the mage the infulance spell and you have your two man runner crew...

[Kyrel]

The Shapechange spell can give some potentially rediculous results, but personally I'd probably go another way towards changing it. My problem with Shapechange and Critterform, however are three things.

1) You can't use the damned spell very often, because you don't get to take your equipment with you.
2) You get to add additional points to the physical attributes of the critterform, based on your successes.
3) You can spellcast while changed.

If I were to change it, I'd be wording it like this:

Shapechange transforms a voluntary subject into a normal (non-paranormal)
critter, though the subject retains human consciousness. The spell requires
a threshold of 1 success per point of difference between the Body of the
spellcaster and the critter (minimum 1). So a Body 4 mage that changes
into a Body 1 animal, requires 4-1 = 3 successes on the casting roll.
The spellcaster attains the Physical attributes of the critter successfully
changed into, but her her Mental attributes remain unchanged.
The spell does transform clothing and equipment, but renders the effect of
said equipment innert while changed.
Magicians in critter form can not cast spells unless the critter would normally
be capable of this.

[Irion]

@Kyrel
Thats a great spell for DnD but transforming your equipment in Shadowrun is just PURE GOLD.
(Shoot open a window, take the prototype and the data and fly away...)

A spell hiding your equipment is very good in a game where half the rent is getting past sensors...

As it is, it is good(or bad) enough you may take cyberware with you...

[Kyrel]

True Irion. But to be honest, I have yet to find a situation beyond "initial surveilance" or "last ditch effort desperate escape" where this spell would actually be useful, when you have to strip naked and leave everything you have on you behind, in order to use it. OK, I'll grant that it would probably be a kick-ass thing to be able to do as an alternative to recreational scuba diving (dolphine shape or something similar) or recreational hicking or something, but that's not really all that relevant with regards to most Shadowrun games. But maybe I'm just not creative enough, or maybe it's just down to the type of SR games I've been involved with so far.

[Xenefungus]

People complaining about Shapechange being too bad?

Guess some people are playing a different game as we are.

[Neraph]

Umidori: remember that, even with those amazing physical stats, the Shapechanged caster still cannot wear armor. I'd prefer my Body 10 with 18-ish armor over just Body 10.

[Modular Man]

Umidori: remember that, even with those amazing physical stats, the Shapechanged caster still cannot wear armor. I'd prefer my Body 10 with 18-ish armor over just Body 10.

...and I prefer that 18 Armor even over Body 16. By all means, stun damage is way easier to heal over time, and won't bring you into serious trouble once your physical monitor is all filled, the spell drops and so does your body attribute...

On the other hand, though I like that attribute boost, it can get out of Hand pretty fast... I'm not so much worried about big, but rather about small critters. Gladly, the Fragile weakness helps to keep damn tough sparrows (Body 5, now what?) in check.

And there's always Bear Armor, to be found in War! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Umidori]

Umidori: remember that, even with those amazing physical stats, the Shapechanged caster still cannot wear armor. I'd prefer my Body 10 with 18-ish armor over just Body 10.

I, uh, did remember. It's right there in my previous post.

Also, 18 armor? What, are you walking in in full MilSpec?

The benefits of the spell are 1) no nuyen investment, 2) no availability checks, 3) no karma or build point or 'ware or magic investment in your physical attributes, and 4) you can get it through security and magick it into place when you need it instead of busting in the front door and shooting everything that moves.

Oh yeah, and it also masks your identity.

"No, sir, we don't know who did it. Yes, sir, we did get them on camera. The problem is that they were a leopard at the time, sir. We've got forensics trying to pick up a signature, but they haven't turned anything up yet, so..."

~Umi

[Irion]

True Irion. But to be honest, I have yet to find a situation beyond "initial surveilance" or "last ditch effort desperate escape" where this spell would actually be useful, when you have to strip naked and leave everything you have on you behind, in order to use it. OK, I'll grant that it would probably be a kick-ass thing to be able to do as an alternative to recreational scuba diving (dolphine shape or something similar) or recreational hicking or something, but that's not really all that relevant with regards to most Shadowrun games. But maybe I'm just not creative enough, or maybe it's just down to the type of SR games I've been involved with so far.

I solved one episode of a run with ONLY this spell. Shapechange to sneak into a building, helped some people into the building, hacked (literally) the computer (ripping out the harddrive) and shapechanged to get away. Yeah you can't play "formal" shadowrun where the data is in some vault and you need external excess and so on. But thats really high end data anyway.
And most people do not really protect their stuff against harddisks beeing ripped out. Tends to cause more trouble than it is worth.

And you do NOT need to leave all the gear behind. Most animals can carry stuff. Yes, it is not the kind of spell which can be usefull no matter how you opperate. But it can be damn usefull if you integrate it in your playbook..

@Xenefungus
Depends on the GM. If your GM WANTS this test and does not allow for improvisation, than shapechange is worth very little, since most runs do not consider it in their solution. If your GM lets you get away with simple out of the box thinking (having nothing to do with rules lawyering) than it is helpful.
It the question if you have to hack a node to crash it, or if you can just spill your "softdrink with extra ions" all over its insides.

[Yerameyahu]

This is definitely something that's come up before, the idea that the difference between the mage's Body and the target form's Body is the Threshold. Anyway, it seems so obvious and sensical that I have trouble imagining anyone disagreeing: the better you cast the spell, the more extreme target form you can take.

I feel like this is usually in the context of *also* completely removing the +Net-Hits-to-Attributes insanity. It is true, as noted above, that the Body=Threshold rule automatically helps a little bit on the attribute boost aspect. I've also seen the idea of giving Net Hits Attrib points to distribute, but honestly that's probably still more complex and abuse-prone than we'd want. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) It's hard to think of a good reason why the mage should have that control.

As we know, the biggest abuses of Shapechange are something more like 'large monkey/ape form', or (god forbid) 'human form'. Still, it's probably not reasonable for you to turn into animals with such incredibly boosted stats. The point is that you *get* to turn into the various animals in the first place.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

This is definitely something that's come up before, the idea that the difference between the mage's Body and the target form's Body is the Threshold. Anyway, it seems so obvious and sensical that I have trouble imagining anyone disagreeing: the better you cast the spell, the more extreme target form you can take.

I feel like this is usually in the context of *also* completely removing the +Net-Hits-to-Attributes insanity. It is true, as noted above, that the Body=Threshold rule automatically helps a little bit on the attribute boost aspect. I've also seen the idea of giving Net Hits Attrib points to distribute, but honestly that's probably still more complex and abuse-prone than we'd want. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) It's hard to think of a good reason why the mage should have that control.

As we know, the biggest abuses of Shapechange are something more like 'large monkey/ape form', or (god forbid) 'human form'. Still, it's probably not reasonable for you to turn into animals with such incredibly boosted stats. The point is that you *get* to turn into the various animals in the first place.

Well, we use the Distributed net hits to physical stats solution, and have done so for years. Works out pretty well.

Additionally, Individual [Metahuman] Form Spells work out pretty well as well, as long as they are Sustained spells and not Permanent (oh the Horror) spells. Done that for many years at our table as well. Interestingly enough, there has been only one character to ever take those [Metahuman] Form Spells in game, so I do not think that they are as crazy as some make them out to be. Not much different than the Physical Mask spell in execution, though they are Manipulation Spells (a real change) rather than Illusion Spells, obviously.

I am one that actually LIKES the limit that you must have a Natural Body within 2 of the target creature's Body for the spell to work. As such, we do not allow (at our table) chaining of the spells to get greater/lesser creatures than that would normally allow, which also tends to limit the insanity a bit.

[Yerameyahu]

If you're getting +Net Hits, then it's Physical Mask + 3 kinds of better-than-Improved Attribute, so that's the issue. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

I dunno. The within-2 rule is pretty horrible, given how inconsistently Body even means 'size'. Plus, you miss out on the very intuitive mechanic that it's harder to change into more extreme forms; a wasted opportunity!

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

If you're getting +Net Hits, then it's Physical Mask + 3 kinds of better-than-Improved Attribute, so that's the issue. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

I dunno. The within-2 rule is pretty horrible, given how inconsistently Body even means 'size'. Plus, you miss out on the very intuitive mechanic that it's harder to change into more extreme forms; a wasted opportunity!

Sure... we do restrict to distributed Net Hits; but yes, it can be an issue, if you let it get out of hand (and it is a tad bit better than Physical Mask, yes). As I mentioned earlier, we have not had it get out of hand (except for the guy wanting a Permanent version, rather than Sustained version, Oi Vey). In fact, the one character with the [Metahuman] Form spells uses his accumulated Net Hits (Never more than 3) to balance back to his normal stats so that they do not change except for the expected Racial Mods. Keeps the stats relatively stable, so you do not see wild swings in stat capabilities. It has been pretty entertaining, actually. And the spells are Typically cast at Force 3, so there has been no actual abuse of the added ability scores... I can, however, see the potential abuse... Most Players I have played with do not think the Spells (5 of them) are worth it though. I love them, myself... *shrug*

I guess the Within-2 rule is a bit odd, in comparison to normal Shapechange abilities in other games, but I have liked it a lot (it cuts down on the nonsense, in my opinion). Changing it to a Threshold is an interesting twist I had not seen before in previous threads on the subject. May have to look into it. I do think that it would make Shapechange a bit more useful to many of my characters, given the added availability of forms outside of the 2 Body Differential limit.

[DMiller]

Shapechange transforms a voluntary subject into a normal (non-paranormal)
critter, though the subject retains human consciousness. The spell requires
a threshold of 1 success per point of difference between the Body of the
spellcaster and the critter (minimum 1). So a Body 4 mage that changes
into a Body 1 animal, requires 4-1 = 3 successes on the casting roll.
The spellcaster attains the Physical attributes of the critter successfully
changed into, but her her Mental attributes remain unchanged.
The spell does transform clothing and equipment, but renders the effect of
said equipment innert while changed.
Magicians in critter form can not cast spells unless the critter would normally
be capable of this.

We did something like this in our game, we still use the body +/- 2, but our mage created a new shape change spell that took gear with her. The spell has to beat the highest ORT of the gear she has with her when the spell is cast, and the gear is not available to her at all while shape changed. So far this has worked out well, we still allow net hits to add to attributes, but because of the high thresholds she usually doesn't have many net hits.

So if a group is really head-strong in using the Body difference as a threshold, I'd say add the ORT to that threshold and allow gear like we did. It would make for some high thresholds and usually headaches for the mage (drain damage), but it would allow all of the functions that you liked. You could even still allow + net hits at that point without too much fear.

-D

[Falconer]

I was about to say, the far most common use I see for the spell is human form. (metahumans are paracritters and off limits).

I need a new face... and decent physical attributes all in one. Great for smiling for the camera without showing your actual.


Allowing equipment melding is pretty badly broken, even with object resistance. It's one thing for cyber/bio bought with essence to be rendered unusable and meld into the form (shapechangers pay for this by absolutely requiring delta grade cyber to start with as well). Rediculously abusable though in Shadowrun.... yeah hand me all your equipment... shift... walk through checkpoint. Shift back later... hand all the contraband to whomever. Why aren't all the smugglers doing it?! Oh crap it's the fuzz... hand me the goods... switch...

The closest analog is the 'shape whatever' spells... and even they can't get rid of the goods that fast or reshape it. Turn to goo/statue specifically don't get equipment either.

Quite frankly... this version of the spell also runs way too close to the limits of sorcery "Sorcery Cannot Create Complex Things"... since what exactly are you doing with this... transmuting it into what then reconstructing again?!



It's bad enough when I use it at force 6 in a manipulation sustaining focus... and become a magical street sam wannabe. Human with straight 9's in physical attributes stands up pretty well.

[DMiller]

Honestly that is our Monty Hall game... We would make the Pink Mohawks blush in that game I think. So for our game, shape change with gear isn't broken. We did stipulate that it was personal gear only... So no "hand me your gear" stuff, of course the caster could cast the shape change on someone else that was willing.

-D

*edit*
And it's really hard to cast that with gear version through a focus as your focus is personal gear and disappears when you cast the spell. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Neraph]

I, uh, did remember. It's right there in my previous post.

Also, 18 armor? What, are you walking in in full MilSpec?

The benefits of the spell are 1) no nuyen investment, 2) no availability checks, 3) no karma or build point or 'ware or magic investment in your physical attributes, and 4) you can get it through security and magick it into place when you need it instead of busting in the front door and shooting everything that moves.

I can't remember if you don't like armor stacking or not. My 4 Body characters walk around in 10/8 or 10/9. It's quite easy to get above 20 at around 10 Body, but I stated 18 because it's easier to get off the top of my head.

Oh yeah, and it also masks your identity.

"No, sir, we don't know who did it. Yes, sir, we did get them on camera. The problem is that they were a leopard at the time, sir. We've got forensics trying to pick up a signature, but they haven't turned anything up yet, so..."

~Umi

Shedding.

The best response to Metahuman Form spells IMHO is to simply make it look like the caster, just a X version of them. Like, what Mike would have looked like had he goblinized, or what Jill would have looked like as a dwarf, ect. This way the validity and utility of the Mask line of spells is not infringed upon. Also, for the attributes, you should get Metatype Average, and Successes are only for use against Counterspelling ect. The ability to use gear should outbalance net success stat increases.

[Elfenlied]

Has anyone mentioned the shapechanged assault-rifle wielding orangutan yet?

[Falconer]

Honestly that is our Monty Hall game... We would make the Pink Mohawks blush in that game I think. So for our game, shape change with gear isn't broken. We did stipulate that it was personal gear only... So no "hand me your gear" stuff, of course the caster could cast the shape change on someone else that was willing.

-D

*edit*
And it's really hard to cast that with gear version through a focus as your focus is personal gear and disappears when you cast the spell. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

I'm not saying any of this to sleight you. The point of the game is to have fun... the only reason I state it is because it runs afoul of a lot of things in a more canonical setting.

For example... one of the other laws of sorcery is "magic can not make any decisions on it's own". So either all the equipment is in contact with you... or none of it is. There isn't any kind of personal attachment (short of essence loss).



Neraph:
Disagree on the physical mask bit... one is an illusion with a drain code and utility to match... I can mask as a mailbox, car, or any other item if I wished. It does not need to be as another person or animal. From that point of view it is almost hide in plain sight.


The biggest problem with shapechange is the attributes. It's increase (all physical) wrapped up into one neat spell.

Some of the other bits help police themselves such as no cyber/bio while changed... lose a lot of your natural augments (such as losing out on my natural low-light (night vision quality) and thermographic (dwarf) vision when I shift into human form). Plus the need to keep multiple sizes of gear handy... some for dwarfy fun time... others when I'm not trying to stand out as just yet another human.

[Yerameyahu]

Yup, Elfenlied.

As we know, the biggest abuses of Shapechange are something more like 'large monkey/ape form', or (god forbid) 'human form'.

However, it's so true that it bears repeating!

I need a new face... and decent physical attributes all in one.

You don't need this, you just *want* to combine 4 other spells into one super-cheat. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[Neraph]

Neraph:
Disagree on the physical mask bit... one is an illusion with a drain code and utility to match... I can mask as a mailbox, car, or any other item if I wished. It does not need to be as another person or animal. From that point of view it is almost hide in plain sight.

It's almost like you agree with me for a different reason.

The biggest problem with shapechange is the attributes. It's increase (all physical) wrapped up into one neat spell.

Some of the other bits help police themselves such as no cyber/bio while changed... lose a lot of your natural augments (such as losing out on my natural low-light (night vision quality) and thermographic (dwarf) vision when I shift into human form). Plus the need to keep multiple sizes of gear handy... some for dwarfy fun time... others when I'm not trying to stand out as just yet another human.

"Lady, I'm a troll in bed. Literally."

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Yup.However, it's so true that it bears repeating!

You don't need this, you just *want* to combine 4 other spells into one super-cheat. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

SO, if you are going to use Shapechange as written, just add +2 Drain for each of the 4 other spells for a combined Drain of about +11. Works for me...

[Elfenlied]

"Lady, I'm a troll in bed. Literally."

"Wow, I didn't think you'd mean it quite so... literally when you said you were hung like a horse."