Grenades and Missiles, Underpowered? Options

[Tashiro]

After having watched a lot of Mythbusters, and having done the math on Shadowrun grenades, I'm of the general opinion that they're grossly underpowered.
The average HE grenade in SR is 10P, -2 AP, -2/m. Your average unarmoured human being has 9 Physical, with 3 Overflow. In otherwords, your normal human will 'survive' a grenade blast at ground zero, then proceed to bleed out. Presuming other PCs are around to stabilize him, a normal human has a 100% survival chance against a grenade. A flechette grenade is 12P(f), +5 AP, -1/m. Your average human can survive if they get one Hit on the DV reduction roll. Again, presuming other PCs are around to stabilize him, a normal human has a 100% chance of survival against the grenade. I thought perhaps War would have better grenades, but the damage for these seem to be around 8P.

If I remember correctly, grenades were generally considered lethal out to 5m. In SR, nobody is going to die from a grenade at the 5m mark.

Checking missiles, I get 16P and 14P, with a -4/m and -2/m reduction. This means that at 2 metres, a normal, unarmoured human will survive a missile.

I really think that grenades and missiles should have about +5P or something, and that the reduction to blast should be reduced some. (-1/2 m, perhaps).

Looking at information on grenades (kill out to 8m, casualty to 15), I'd have gone closer to this: 15P, -2 AP, -1/2 m for an HE grenade.


Thoughts?

[Yerameyahu]

Yup. Everyone knows this. On the other hand, they're stupid-cheap and easy to get ahold of, so it all kind of balances out. So, making changes, you'd want to make them vastly more expensive and high Avail/Forbidden if you're also going to 'realify' their damage.

The big problem for missiles is that it's hard to actually hit things; they should probably also have very high anti-vehicular AP. But almost everything in the game works better if you dramatically increase the AP, is my theory. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

I thought a RL frag grenade was lethal at *well* over 5m.

[thorya]

Yeah, grenades are not designed for realism, but for game balance reasons. If you want to keep them from becoming a huge unbalancing problem, make sure you raise the availability and price in relationship to any increase in power you make. Realistically, injuries should also leave scars and permanent disability, but the rules for that are optional, because realism doesn't always make for a good game. (though the lack of realism bugs me too, once you start trying to fix it you end up playing a simulationist game that has a book ten times as thick for the basic rules)

If you're going for realism, keep in mind that depending upon the type of grenade, they injure at a range that is equal or greater than a person's ability to throw them. Those grenades are designed only to be used defensively, from behind barriers. Chances are runners throwing them haphazardly are going to end up with lots of self-inflicted injuries.

[Tanegar]

Chances are runners throwing them haphazardly are going to end up with lots of self-inflicted injuries.

This is what GMs call a "teachable moment." (IMG:style_emoticons/default/rotfl.gif)

[Tashiro]

Yup. Everyone knows this. On the other hand, they're stupid-cheap and easy to get ahold of, so it all kind of balances out. So, making changes, you'd want to make them vastly more expensive and high Avail/Forbidden if you're also going to 'realify' their damage.

The big problem for missiles is that it's hard to actually hit things; they should probably also have very high anti-vehicular AP. But almost everything in the game works better if you dramatically increase the AP, is my theory. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

I thought a RL frag grenade was lethal at *well* over 5m.

I don't know if it balances out, the idea that a grenade CAN NOT kill someone just kind of blows my mind. +5 DV for all explosive weapons isn't too bad, I think. I'll need to consider this.

[Yerameyahu]

As thorya says: realistic grenades are just impossibly deadly. If they were in the game, then they'd be rightly rare (and, as I said, expensive), and no one could ever use the things. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[Umidori]

You're also failing to remember that if someone intentionally tries to get a grenade to detonate at "ground zero" range in relation to a target, it will inevitably scatter to someone or something else you'd prefer NOT to blow up. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

~Umi

[Nath]

Since someone using a firearm can call a shot and increase the DV by +4 by "targeting a vital location," I bend the rules a bit and consider when an explosion is hitting one or several vital location, which most explosions do, it should get the same +4 modifier to DV.

[Tashiro]

As thorya says: realistic grenades are just impossibly deadly. If they were in the game, then they'd be rightly rare (and, as I said, expensive), and no one could ever use the things. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

It isn't that they should be 'impossibly deadly', it is that they should actually be deadly. No human being should be able to survive a grenade at ground 0. As it stands, anyone can survive a grenade at ground 0, and that's just wrong.

[Draco18s]

Don't forget about chunky salsa. A single wall within 3 meters of the 0-zone will significantly boost the damage of your standard grenades to lethal levels.

[Umidori]

The chunky salsa effect has to be the number one killer in terms of grenade use in the games I've seen.

Toss a grenade at the feet of a guy in an open field? Probably dead, yeah, but I could see him potentially surviving, especially if he hits the deck.
Toss a grenade into the middle of the local Stuffer Shack? I hope you brought a lot of corn chips.

~Umi

[Tashiro]

The chunky salsa effect has to be the number one killer in terms of grenade use in the games I've seen.

Toss a grenade at the feet of a guy in an open field? Probably dead, yeah, but I could see him potentially surviving, especially if he hits the deck.
Toss a grenade into the middle of the local Stuffer Shack? I hope you brought a lot of corn chips.

~Umi

"Probably Dead" depends on whether or not the person rolls even a single hit, has any armour at all, blows edge, or has a Body of 4 or more. A normal human has 9 Physical wound boxes, and 3 overflow, and a grade in an open area will not do enough to actually kill the person. This is a problem - apparently grenades are not normally lethal weapons. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/ohplease.gif)

[Umidori]

Frag grenades are. You're specifically refering to the High Explosives variety.

In real life, most grenades kill via fragmentation. The shrapnel rips you to pieces, and at close range you get a lot more shrapnel hitting you because it hasn't had time to spread as it flies.

A high explosive grenade simply creates a powerful expanding ball of gas, essentially a shockwave. You're gonna be wounded by it, sure, but without a confined area to direct and channel the energy of the blast, most of the energy is going to go around you rather than through you.

Also, if you're going to complain about the lethality of SR grenades compared to RL grenades, you need to also complain about the guns and arrow and knives and everything. How reasonable is it that a normal human shot in the chest with an assault rifle with no armor is gonna live? They're probably lungshot if they don't take the round in the heart and die nearly instantly. But in SR, you can take that 6P round and the +1P from a minimum net hit, stage down NONE of it, return fire and kill the guy who shot you with only a couple dice lost, then continue on your merry way without bleeding to death or suffering from shock.

The point is that nearly everything is more lethal in real life than it is in Shadowrun. So quit yer whinging.

~Umi

[Tashiro]

The thing is, bullets can 'graze', and the more Hits you get, the more damage it will inflict - up to god-awful levels of damage. Explosives don't get this luxury, they're at a fixed rating, and go downward from there, which is really weird. I think having more damage, then letting it downgrade from that higher damage would be more useful, and give it a reasonable comparison against firearms.

Seriously, 4-5 hits with a firearm is currently on par with a grenade. But a grenade is supposed to inflict whole-body trauma.

[Umidori]

So your complaint is that bullets have fewer situations in the rules wherein they defy physics and reality? That because you can stage a bullet up to more realistic levels of damage if you get enough hits, that this somehow makes it any less ridiculous of an abstracted game rule?

You're also forgetting something in the bullet to grenade comparisons - bullets aren't area of effect weapons. You really shouldn't be using grenades against single targets, but rather groups of enemies. Catch half a dozens guards by surprise in a small break room with a single grenade and you might very well do near 100P damage total with the chunky salsa effect.

...not to mention the tactical potential for a weapon than operates as a form of indirect fire, where you can kill people just by getting one through a window or over a wall without actually having line of sight to shoot them.

~Umi

[kzt]

Toss a grenade into the middle of the local Stuffer Shack? I hope you brought a lot of corn chips.

Nothing in a retail store will resist the overpressure. It will blow out the ceiling tiles, blow the lightweight sheet metal shelves apart, etc. In theory you could double the damage due to it reflecting off the ground, but then the guy in the field is dead too.

[Stahlseele]

Well, there IS the Chunky Salsa Rule . .
And technically, you can use the Ground for that too . .

[Tashiro]

...not to mention the tactical potential for a weapon than operates as a form of indirect fire, where you can kill people just by getting one through a window or over a wall without actually having line of sight to shoot them.

~Umi

True, you can throw a grenade at a group of people - but unless they're in an enclosed space, you're not killing any of them. And if they're armoured, you're even less likely of killing any of them. That's just it. A grenade, by itself, in Shadowrun, can not kill people. That's what I'm objecting to. The impossibility of doing lethal damage with a weapon that is designed explicitly to kill people. You can 'shoot to wound' with a gun, but you're not expected to with a grenade.

[Tashiro]

Well, there IS the Chunky Salsa Rule . .
And technically, you can use the Ground for that too . .

I'll need to consider that. 'The ground counts as a barrier for chunky salsa rules'. Hmm. *consults the rulebook to see how much this will up the damage*
I also like the idea of 'everything is a vital area', for +4DV, too. That might make grenades worth it.

[Umidori]

WORTH IT?

They're already fucking cheap as hell and easy to get, you can chuck them out two per IP, you can reduce scatter with Airburst Links, AND that also make them explode the same pass that you fire them! Use a grenade launcher, even the pistol sized six shot one from Arsenal, and you essentially can use them as 10m AoE bullets that automatically get 4-5 net hits - and that's before the chunky salsa effect! HOW IS THAT NOT WORTH IT?

~Umi

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

"Probably Dead" depends on whether or not the person rolls even a single hit, has any armour at all, blows edge, or has a Body of 4 or more. A normal human has 9 Physical wound boxes, and 3 overflow, and a grade in an open area will not do enough to actually kill the person. This is a problem - apparently grenades are not normally lethal weapons. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/ohplease.gif)

Just a Nitpick, but a Normal Human will have 10 Physical Health boxes and 3 Overflow...
Back to your regularly scheduled topic...

[Tashiro]

WORTH IT?

They're already fucking cheap as hell and easy to get, you can chuck them out two per IP, you can reduce scatter with Airburst Links, AND that also make them explode the same pass that you fire them! Use a grenade launcher, even the pistol sized six shot one from Arsenal, and you essentially can use them as 10m AoE bullets that automatically get 4-5 net hits - and that's before the chunky salsa effect! HOW IS THAT NOT WORTH IT?

~Umi

A RL modern grenade costs the military about $28 buy. So yeah, cheap as hell.
Having the weapon be as lethal as it should be (kills in an 8m radius, cripples in a 15m radius) is really what I'm looking for. Seriously. That's not too much to ask.

[Umidori]

@Tymeaus Jalynsfein

If we're gonna nitpick, we should also point out that a Normal Human also doesn't wear armor and buys hits, so with only 3 Body they stage down nothing and start to bleed to death. Short of getting immediate medical attention, they're dead.

Remember, Runners aren't normal people.

~Umi

[Tashiro]

Just a Nitpick, but a Normal Human will have 10 Physical Health boxes and 3 Overflow...
Back to your regularly scheduled topic...

Even better. Thanks. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) Which means even a frag grenade doesn't kill Joe Schmoe in the street.

[Umidori]

Having the weapon be as lethal as it should be (kills in an 8m radius, cripples in a 15m radius) is really what I'm looking for. Seriously. That's not too much to ask.

Yes, actually, it is. For reference, see guns not being as lethal as they should be, melee weapons not being as lethal as they should be, fall damage not being as lethal as it should be, or in fact almost all damage in the game not being as lethal as it "should" be.

"If you're wondering how he eats and breathes, and other science facts;
Just repeat to yourself, "It's just a show. I should really just relax!";
It's Mystery Science Theatre... 3000!"
*guitar chord*

~Umi