Did I Summon a spirit or a Marshmallow? Options

[Yerameyahu]

I'm sure why he's trying to pick a fight. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Anyway. Because the nonlinear spirit power comes up a lot, I think I remember seeing an idea about decoupling their ITNW from their Force. Instead, spirits get a basic level of INTW, and it increases more slowly with higher Force; e.g., 3+F/2 (x+F/y). That's just a random example, so we'd have to stop and think about the actual formula, but you can use whatever values you want for X and Y. This puts them more in line with the DV/AP line (which begins at 4/-0 and goes up relatively slowly).

Re: flechette, they don't have armor = Force, then doubled. They have armor = 2*Force. All AP effects apply to that (doubled) value, right? That's why S&S brings their armor 'back down' to Force.

[almost normal]

Cut the passive aggressive dumbfuckery, yahoo.

The only assumption being made is that I'm claiming someone intentionally cheated.

[Tanegar]

The assumption is a reasonable one. Forgetting or not knowing when/if the dual-wield dice pool split is applied can be reasonably chalked up to player error. Taking six free actions in one pass... not so much.

[almost normal]

I once had a player completely ignore the negative modifiers for perception with a drone. Had another assume the 100k Payday was per person, not group. I tend to assume people are wrong, rather then jerks.

[Tanegar]

You clearly have a more charitable view of people than I.

[KarmaInferno]

AN, I will say that I for one, reading your posts, did not realize you were talking about a cheating player til you explicitly came out and said you were.

If you're going to talk about something non-standard, like a cheating player, it might be a good idea to specifically say that to begin with. Saves on confusion later.

"I could certainly see a player not mentioning the half dozen free aim actions he's taking." is a little ambiguous.

Could mean a player literally taking six IPs of free actions and not mentioning it. Could mean that you didn't know that there's only one free action a round (until you clarified that you did know this in a later post) Or, it could mean you meant the player was cheating. Which it turns out was your intent.

Also, possibly, not assuming automatically that someone is attacking you and responding with a confrontational chip-on-your-shoulder attitude might help. You seemed like a likeable enough guy when I met you at that convention, but do seem to have a habit of assuming someone is attacking you when posting on the forums.




-k

[almost normal]

Jeepers. Now *im* confused. Let's call the whole thing off.

You making it to dexcon, KI?

[Aerospider]

Hmmm...if a 'normal spirits armor is equal to force, and then you add flechettes...

Shouldnt we make the addition of flechette bonus BEFORE we double the armor to make it hardened?

No, ItNW provides "an "Armor rating" equal to twice its Magic [Force]" so at no point does it equal Force.

[CrystalBlue]

I can't REALLY throw anything large at my PCs. Last time I even threw in a Force 1 spirit, I ended the run with one character possessed, one character dead from Physical over-cast drain, and two PC's that had no reason to continue running. I don't make my encounters in Shadowrun deadly anymore because that night was NOT fun after game. Being called a lousy ST and having no games to play or run for nearly a year is not fun. From now on, I don't try to send lethal encounters at my PCs unless I've discussed the entire encounter with the PC's ahead of time so they know what they're going up against. I know that sounds stupid, but I only have the one group of PC's and I can't afford to continue pissing them off anymore.

I think I'll need to do some research myself into the gunbunny. I'll try to recreate it with what I know and post another thread. I think I've got my answer about spirits, at least. Thanks guys.

[Wakshaani]

Yeah, always a goo didea to get acopy of everyone's character sheets. When you do, post 'em here. Dumpshockers looove chewtoys. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Yerameyahu]

CrystalBlue, I have major trouble believing that with a Force 1 spirit. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) I feel like maybe there was more to the story?

[Jeremiah Kraye]

When duel wielding revolvers, if you have 1 shot each, each is a simple action.

Duel wielding pistols only splits dice when you are firing both in the same simple action, if my understanding is correct?

(you split if you want 4 shots with 2 semi autos, otherwise you may fire each semi auto once by taking two seperate actions for higher accuracy)

Just verifying if I ever look into utilizing duel wielded revolvers...

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

When duel wielding revolvers, if you have 1 shot each, each is a simple action.

Duel wielding pistols only splits dice when you are firing both in the same simple action, if my understanding is correct?

(you split if you want 4 shots with 2 semi autos, otherwise you may fire each semi auto once by taking two seperate actions for higher accuracy)

Just verifying if I ever look into utilizing duel wielded revolvers...

Correct...
Off-hand penalties do apply, though...

[Jeremiah Kraye]

Correct...
Off-hand penalties do apply, though...

Unless you are ambidextrous... Cool, just verifying. I think "almost normal" might be confused about the cheating part, since the original statement was that the guy took one shot, then took another right?

I think the initial wording of the post was kinda wonky... As in order for her to take 4 shots she would of had to declare "dual firing" then split dice appropriately not, take 1 shot, then another, then as the second simple action her second set of shots.

[Critias]

I can't REALLY throw anything large at my PCs. Last time I even threw in a Force 1 spirit, I ended the run with one character possessed, one character dead from Physical over-cast drain, and two PC's that had no reason to continue running.

I can't help but feel there's more to it than a Force 1 spirit.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Unless you are ambidextrous... Cool, just verifying. I think "almost normal" might be confused about the cheating part, since the original statement was that the guy took one shot, then took another right?

I think the initial wording of the post was kinda wonky... As in order for her to take 4 shots she would of had to declare "dual firing" then split dice appropriately not, take 1 shot, then another, then as the second simple action her second set of shots.

Indeed...

Sounds about right as to the wonky wording... From what it sounds like, the character took two shots, one with each hand. Which is very different than taking two shots in the same simple action.

[Tanegar]

I can't help but feel there's more to it than a Force 1 spirit.

Agreed. At Force 1, a spirit's hardened armor is only 2/2, and its attributes low as well; easy meat for even a starting character.

[Glyph]

And she duel-wields, which means she's got another shot, then another simple action for two more shots if she wanted.

Sounds like the character was dual-wielding (four shots per round) to me. I think CrystalBlue needs to go through Falconer's breakdown of dual-wielding dice pools. I think it is that, not any weakness of the spirit, which let the gunbunny beat it so easily.

Although, truly, a Force: 3 spirit is not particularly tough. Hardened armor of 6 means that most heavy pistols can damage it with only one net success (since heavy pistols have an AP of -1 before you even factor in ammo). It's better than the average mook, but not tough enough to stand up against optimized characters, or ones with some karma points under their belts.

[_Pax._]

If I remember correctly, she just had to beat double the force to punch through the hardened armor. I'm pretty sure 17 is more then 6.

Her gun's AP counts too. Typical heavy pistol using FL ammunition has an AP of +4. So while she still beat it, the number to beat was 10, not 6.

And she duel-wields, [...]

... and gets 15 dice per shot? Um. That, I have to see.

Did I summon this fire spirit from the Plane of Paper?

No. You summond it from the Plane of Birthday Candles. You know, "small, easily extinguished, and doesn't even frighten small children" ...? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Next time, try F5 or F6.

He's got about 7 agility, 8 pistols (10 for specialized), Improved Active Skill 3, he somehow can take aim as a free action, initiate grade 3 with adept centering, laser sights, personalized grips.

There's no such thing as "8 Pistols"; skills can't go above 6. Period, end of story.

Agility 7 requires a 20BP Quality (Exceptional Attribute), or specific Augmentations (1.5PP per +1 above 6).

Improved Combat Skill (3) costs 1.5PP.

Personalised Grips do not give firearms +1 DP - they give a point of recoil compensation. (An easy mistake to make, I made it a lot myself until a month or so ago.)

Even assuming he has the Agil 7 legitimately ... 7(atat) +6(skill) +2(specialised) +3(adept) +1(laser sight) = 19. A respectable die pool, but not enough to give him a die pool of 15 per dual-wielded weapon. Not even close.

Even getting really careful with "what's skill, what's a modifier" ...? The laser sight is post-split, easily. However, that means splitting a DP of 16, for 8 dice per hand, not 8 hits. Then add the Laser Sight, giving her a final DP of 9 per hand.

Minus 4 for the called shot, means FIVE DICE, per hand.

Statistically, that should be resulting in about 1.667 successes per hand. Not 8.

But from what he tells me, he [...]

Cheats.

There's no soft or gentle way to put it, and this is not an accusation I make lightly or often, but: s/he is cheating. They're relying on your comparative unfamiliarity with the rules, and some fast-talk and double-talk, to pull a fast one on you. Step on them. Hard.

I think you also need to make all rolls for the players be made openly, center-of-table. This kind of problem also often involves, shall we say, "creative die rolling".

It's a far cry better then her Katana + SMG = Simple Melee Attack build. That pissed me off.

Rulius Lawyerus Pestilentius Minmaximus, a.k.a. the common Munchkin. That's what you're dealing with here. I recommend Geneva-Convention-violatingly strong insecticide. By the truckful, from orbit. "It's the only way to be sure."

[Midas]

Crystal Blue,

As other posters have suggested, I think you should reread rules for dual wielding or Falconer's summary thereof. You should then walk your PC through it (pointing out that laser sights do not give a dual-wielding bonus, and personalised grip only helps reduce recoil mods etc), and make sure they understand everything, including all the free actions etc they need to take aim and execute called shots. And make sure you are giving your PCs the correct DP modifiers for visibility and range.

As for spirits, remember that flechette ammo gives the spirit +5 to its hardened armour. Also, decide whether you want called shots to affect spirits: although not expressly mentioned in the rules, I think the majority of dumpshock GMs tend to not allow them - after all, with a metahuman you can aim for the head or whatever, but where exaqctly is the weak point of a nebulous spirit?

Next time, you might want to put them up against F4 or F5 spirits: F3 just ain't a challenge for most shaddowrunners.

[Falconer]

No, the majority *DO* allow called shots to do it. It's a vocal minority who constantly come out against it...

Even though it's one of the only things in RAW which allows mundanes to keep high force spirits in check. That makes it well worth keeping in my book.

Quite frankly... it's magic it doesn't need an explanation why it does or doesn't work. But the game does need an explanation why you're allowing force 5-9 spirits to walk right over mundanes left right and center with no way for them to effectively fight back using the tools at their disposal.

[Yerameyahu]

I'd have to see the polling data to support either claim, vocal Falconer. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

As for the rest, the answer is simple: spirits are broken at those levels. Fix *them*, don't allow/add broken counters. Tweaking ITNW in the way I recounted would go a long way toward that, remembering that spirits are supposed to be tough like vehicles.

[Tanegar]

I still want to know how a Force 1 spirit caused a near-TPK.

[Elfenlied]

The only way I could think of is by possessing some badass combat character/drone, e.g. a Mitsuhama Tomino.

[Irion]

@Elfenlied
Thats quite impossible. Well, drones have a Object resistance of 5+ and the drone has two dice..