Chunky salsa rule flaw, it just hit me Options

[Jeremiah Kraye]

I'll never understand the idea that stun grenades + closed area = chucky salsa... seems like idiocy to me, more like shell-shocked catatonic maybe.
Stun grenades don't inflict physical damage?

[StealthSigma]

I'll never understand the idea that stun grenades + closed area = chucky salsa... seems like idiocy to me, more like shell-shocked catatonic maybe.
Stun grenades don't inflict physical damage?

The make more sense for the reasons for chunky salsa. Remember, we're talking about blast waves rebounding within the closed environment. A flashbang has three effect, noise, light, and a concussive blast. As such, it much better model's what causes the chunky salsa. On the other hand, a typical frag grenade does not model it as well since most of the lethality of the frag grenade is in the shrapnel, much of which would embed itself in the materials of the wall rather than reflect off the surfaces.

[Jeremiah Kraye]

I always thought that chunky salsa was the idea that: Explosive + closed space = fine mist - chunky parts shooting out of small holes or out the top.

Mean-while a flash-band doesn't really produce much of a concussive blast compared to the "explosive" nature of true grenades or other forms of explosives.

[VykosDarkSoul]

I always thought that chunky salsa was the idea that: Explosive + closed space = fine mist - chunky parts shooting out of small holes or out the top.

Mean-while a flash-band doesn't really produce much of a concussive blast compared to the "explosive" nature of true grenades or other forms of explosives.

Hold a firecracker on your open palm and light it off...

Now hold another one, close your fist and light it off....


Edit...-- just because i feel the need...Kids..DONT try this at home!

[Jeremiah Kraye]

Fire-crackers and flash-bangs are two different things. Flash-bangs are chemical reactions via metal that produce light and sound, they are expressly for this purpose. Flash-bangs also do not produce shrapnel, nor explosive force enough to generally knock people flat like a grenade does, it is there but its not the same quality as a true explosive (the grenade has holes in it for the force to escape).

Firecrackers are more akin to true explosives, producing damage through force and flame, concussive grenades were made of pure TnT and used to deal with frogmen and sapper swimmers (think of depth charges).

Grenades utilize shrapnel generally.

Other grenades such as thermite don't even apply and tend to have special purpose.

[VykosDarkSoul]

This sounds like a job for Mythbusters!!!!

Okay...what we need to do is make a firecracker (we will say an inch&ahalfer) sized flash bang, and a dead pig.

[Jeremiah Kraye]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M84_stun_grenade

Just saying.

[Irion]

Yeah, I mean for how stupid do you take the army. To develop a stun granade to be used in enclosed environments, where there is the risk of civilians or hostages and just forget to test it in such an environment...

So, no. Stun granades are not subject to the chunky salsa rule... (It is quite obvious since they do not have the -X/m. So they do a destinct damage in one area.

[Yerameyahu]

Yeah, that is such a simple fix. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) A flashbang is not a 'concussive blast' grenade (which is *why* it has a non-diminishing effect, exactly), and it's just easier to do it this way. Especially given the lack of 'stun can't kill you' rules.

Now, what about a fuel-air effect in an enclosed space? To me, it *still* doesn't make sense to use multi-bounce for that, either from a balance or a realism perspective. Basically, there's never a good reason to use that calculation. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[VykosDarkSoul]

I like it! I have not honestly seen a flash bang grenade go off, so after reading the little wiki, and listening to these fine arguments, i would have to concur, no chunky salsa via flash bang.

[DMiller]

Yeah, that is such a simple fix. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) A flashbang is not a 'concussive blast' grenade (which is *why* it has a non-diminishing effect, exactly), and it's just easier to do it this way. Especially given the lack of 'stun can't kill you' rules.

Now, what about a fuel-air effect in an enclosed space? To me, it *still* doesn't make sense to use multi-bounce for that, either from a balance or a realism perspective. Basically, there's never a good reason to use that calculation. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Actually fuel-air won't work correctly (or possibly at all) in an enclosed space. If the ratio of air to fuel is not correct it won't explod. It might not even burn. Depending on the size of the FAE and the size of the space you might just get wet and smelly. Of course that's RL, in a game it's up to the GM.

-D

[Falconer]

Wow, just wow... reading through most of this thread the amount of people who must have failed physics.... That the waves 'cancel' in a circular room (they don't). Similar such effects...


And the amount of people with no understanding of exactly how dangerous a flash bang is IN A CONFINED SPACE.

It WILL blow doors off closets and the like if confined... it's similar to a fuel air explosive or grain/particulate explosion in how it operates. There's a bursting charge followed by an ignition charge. If the blast is confined to LESS than it's normal radius you still have the same amount of material going off in a lesser space == more overpressure == more concussive damage.... Anyone who says flash-bangs shouldn't get chunky based on a reality argument doesn't know what they're talking about.

Besides, the damage is STUN... who cares if it bounces twice or thrice... if it gets 3... you're only up to 18S not enough to kill all but the weakest of suckers... 18S is only likely to knock out someone in a confined space after armor... not much more. All your other explosive nades are doing physical damage... so there is quite a point to flash-bangs.

The M84 is a very poor subsitute for the one in the book... did you note the radius of only 2m!!! (compare to the radius of 10m... 20m diameter on the game book flash bangs!!! that's a hell of a lot more yield!!!).

[CanRay]

Hey, at least I admitted I failed physics!

(I couldn't memorize the calculations. The theory I had down pat.).

[Irion]

@Falconer
Honestly, before you tell people they fail in physics you should first check the rules we are talking about.
Nobody wants to run a simulation. The question is, which is the better approximation...
And a flashbang going off 2 m away from your position in an 5x5m room does not kill you.
So an approximation telling it kills you, well is off.

And yeah, building a flashbang which probably KILLs hostages, which have NO Armor and probably only body 2 or 3 is STUPID.

So in this 5x5 room with 3 Walls you end up with initial damage+3 reflections. Giving you a total of 24 damage.

[Yerameyahu]

The radius is not 2m, Falconer. The DV decreases on 2m increments, that's all.

The problem is that stun *does* kill, and it adds up to much more than 18S (ridiculously).

Interesting, DMiller; thanks for the save. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Falconer]

My POINT was a M84 flash bang has a 5' range!!!! The flash bang in game has a 33' range. The safety bits about the one aren't applicable to a much larger blast. Also look at the fatalities (such as the cop who had one go off at his feet and killed him... so much for nonlethal: hence the less lethal nomenclature).


And Irion... even in your example the flash-bang is not going to kill you... it's going to leave you knocked out and unconscious since it's doing STUN! You're not talking about a HE/frag doing physical. 2m away.. except for some very specific geometries I only see the thing reflecting into you 3 times for 18S soak. FAR from a killer.

If you're allowing for more than that... then you're not following the rules for blowing out barriers!!! The rules state if ANY hole in the enclosed space is created stop the chunky express. Very few barriers are going to soak 12DV multiple times and NOT end up with a whole or wall blown out of them... The vast majority of building materials for certain won't stand up to more than 2 reflections (for 18S max).




Look earlier in the thread... I suggested simply looking at how much area you have confining the blast... if the grenade covers a 5m radius... and you're in a 3x3 room... double the blast. Simply call the damage increase due to reduced area of effect.

Also, I'm not certain the rule is to be used every time a grenade is close to a wall, but only when the blast is in a confined space like a small room or elevator.

[Irion]

@Falconer
Barriers are kind of immune to stun damage, so the exclamation marks are no help.

And, please, stop saying that DV20+ is far from lethal. Thats more damage than a gunshot. And getting shot by a gun is kind of lethal.

except for some very specific geometries I only see the thing reflecting into you 3 times for 18S soak. FAR from a killer.

Draw a room. And a square is not a very specific geometrie...
But for you: Take a piece of paper with those little 5X5mm² squares on it. Draw a square with a length of 5 boxes. Make a point in the centere of the square. Thats the granade. Now make another point two squares left of the first. Thats poor buster (Since we were talking about Myth Buster before).
Now, lets say the wall on the opposite side of buster is made out of paper and does not count.
You should end up with something like that

CODE

_____
      l
  X X l
_____ l

1. The normal damage
2. Damage is reflected from the upper, the right and the lower wall. Thats 3 times. additional to the initial damage, thats 4 times.
3. Poor Buster.
4. And if you want to argue, if the other redirections hit you, jesus just make the room 4X4 m..
5. If you want to play smartass, I will throw in the floor and the ceiling.

[Jeremiah Kraye]

I also love that after posting about how hard we failed, he referenced the explosive process of a flash bang when in fact its a metal burning process, more similar to a thermite reaction with a higher degree of light and sound produced than a true explosion (grain or air-burn).

Additionally no, a flash-bang is not a confined blast. Now, no one said a flash-bang isn't dangerous, it is... it is a chemical metal burning reaction that releases massive amounts of heat and light as well as concussive force (mainly because the ingrediants are compacted and stored into a lovely little aluminum fuel container that burns off after rupturing), but to jump to conclusions that a flash-bang in an enclosed space is anymore near as deadly than a high-explosive grenade spraying ball bearings is a joke.

Additionally reread my point... there is no chunky salsa from a flashbang not because it shouldn't receive the rule, but because THERE IS NO SALSA. Shrapnel from a flashbang is non-existent, besides maybe blowing out your ear-drums or rupturing a soft-tissue (like your eyeball), the idea of "chunk salsa" being used to refer to anyone in an enclosed space with a flash-bang seems idiotic to me.

Either way I think you need to tone down on the "you're all wrong" tone, this is a discussion, no one is wrong.

[StealthSigma]

Additionally reread my point... there is no chunky salsa from a flashbang not because it shouldn't receive the rule, but because THERE IS NO SALSA. Shrapnel from a flashbang is non-existent, besides maybe blowing out your ear-drums or rupturing a soft-tissue (like your eyeball), the idea of "chunk salsa" being used to refer to anyone in an enclosed space with a flash-bang seems idiotic to me.

Chunky salsa is just a "plain english" shorthand name for a rule that covers grenades. Just because the effect from massive amounts of stun would not generate a visual "salsa" effect is not indicative that the rule does not apply to flashbangs. The rule applies to grenades, flashbangs are grenades, ergo chunky salsa applies to flashbangs.

Plus "chunky salsa" is a lot easier and faster to say than "Reverberation Blast Radius Damage Calculation".

[Draco18s]

The rule applies to grenades, flashbangs are grenades, ergo chunky salsa applies to flashbangs.

FTFY

[StealthSigma]

FTFY

Flashbangs are the sole grenade that can cause issue and that is only because it is the only flat radius with no dropoff in damage that deals damage.

The remaining grenades that have no dropoff do not have damage or do not have damage that would apply multiple times in an enclosed environment. Gas grenades, for example, have the same radius as flashbangs (10m) and they do qualify for chunky salsa, except that the rules for toxins basically make the chunk salsa effect non-existent. No matter what, you can only suffer a single dose per interval.

[Yerameyahu]

Ah, I see Falconer. I thought you were saying frag radius was too small, not that flashbang radius was too big. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) In the end, though, the realism argument is nothing. If it corresponds to fun/balanced, that's gravy, but it can never override them.

[Jeremiah Kraye]

Don't get me wrong, from a rules stand-point a flashbang in an elevator will knock you the @!#$ out, but I was just pointing out the idiocy of refering to it as chunk salsa... I would think it would be closer to well tenderized tomato.

[VykosDarkSoul]

But...but...the dead pig...mini flashbang.....but....::sigh::


.....i wanted to blow up the pig.... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/frown.gif)

[Jeremiah Kraye]

Makes me want to equip a backpack loaded pair of modular cyberweapon arm'd grenade launchers with flashbangs... To prove a point.