Let's discuss Positive Qualities, From all 5 core rulebooks Options

[Yerameyahu]

It depends on the GM, I guess. Many of the SURGE negatives can be completely negated; only by going 'RAW says you are Distinctive, even if there's no logic' can they still get you. Be aware I'm arguing this is a bad thing. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[Misdemeanor]

[quote name='_Pax._' date='Jun 23 2012, 07:00 PM' post='1165252']
(part 2 of 2)

I just built a Face/Mage character for a PbP here on Dumpshock. He speaks 7 languages, including his Native English, at a root level of 3. Thus, Linguist was worth 12BP of Knowledge/Language skill points - a profit of 7BP. I can raise each 1 more point, to 4 - and get the full +2 bonus, speaking each as well as a full-on native speaker. Getting ranks 5 and 6 free is worth 11 Karma. Across six skills, that's 66 karma saved.

And I don't plan on stopping at 6+Native languages spoken, either. I'm pondering picking up the Linguistics adept power, too. Then, the cost of an effectively R6 "native" language will be only 9 karma each ... instead of 24.

Linguist has already paid for itself. By the time I'm at 10 non-Native languages spoken? It iwll have paid for itself a dozen times over, if not more.


I have found that when it comes to languages its even easier to get a payoff an adept with the Linguist power and the Linguist quality can learn a new language at 3 for no Karma (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[_Pax._]

Of course a smart GM would look at the above quote and see that it says its rare and new so would be impossible to have with genetic heritage.

Escaped Clone ... suddenly looks more attractive. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[_Pax._]

I have found that when it comes to languages its even easier to get a payoff an adept with the Linguist power and the Linguist quality can learn a new language at 3 for no Karma (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

The Linguist quality's boost to language skills is bunded by "skill/2, round down". So while the Adept pwoer does indeed give you a R1 language for free, you have to pay to advance to R2 to get +1 from the quality, and then advance to R4 to get the full +2.

[Jhaiisiin]

Is the metagenic improvement taken as genetic heritage still considered the quality? If not, can you then take the quality as a surge for the same attribute? (I know I'm dealing with semantics and the answer is likely no, but figured I'd offer this bit of foolishness up)

[StealthSigma]

I just built a Face/Mage character for a PbP here on Dumpshock. He speaks 7 languages, including his Native English, at a root level of 3. Thus, Linguist was worth 12BP of Knowledge/Language skill points - a profit of 7BP. I can raise each 1 more point, to 4 - and get the full +2 bonus, speaking each as well as a full-on native speaker. Getting ranks 5 and 6 free is worth 11 Karma. Across six skills, that's 66 karma saved.

Slight point. Having an effective 6 in a language skill is not the same as speaking it as well as a native speaker. You would still need to make a language skill test (Intuition) and meet the threshold (Basic Topic (1), Complex Topic (2), Intricate Topic (3), Obscure Topic (4)) for the type of conversation you're holding. You are still also susceptible to glitches and critical glitches which aren't present in your native language.

[_Pax._]

... but for the purposes of using Social Skills, it is the same as being a Native Speaker: your limit on social skills is 6 ... which you can't exceed without having Aptitude, anyway.

[StealthSigma]

... but for the purposes of using Social Skills, it is the same as being a Native Speaker: your limit on social skills is 6 ... which you can't exceed without having Aptitude, anyway.

Your social skill dice are limited by language skill. Without aptitude, you social skill dice can go up to 9 (10 with it) if the bonus augments the social skill rather than gives a dice pool modifier. If you have a face adept with 6 Con in his social skills and Improved Ability 3 (Con) then he has 9 Con dice for his native language and 6 con dice for each language that has a rating of 6.

[_Pax._]

Your social skill dice are limited by language skill. Without aptitude, you social skill dice can go up to 9 (10 with it) if the bonus augments the social skill rather than gives a dice pool modifier. If you have a face adept with 6 Con in his social skills and Improved Ability 3 (Con) then he has 9 Con dice for his native language and 6 con dice for each language that has a rating of 6.

Other than Adept powers ... I know of nothing that directly adds to a social skill, rather than adding to the die pools. Which makes that concern something of an edge case, yes?

...

Besides, if you actually pay Karma for R6 language skills, the Linguist quality will give you an effective 8, anyway. So even then, the Quality is pretty darned useful still.

[NiL_FisK_Urd]

The Linguist quality's boost to language skills is bunded by "skill/2, round down". So while the Adept pwoer does indeed give you a R1 language for free, you have to pay to advance to R2 to get +1 from the quality, and then advance to R4 to get the full +2.

Well, just add learning stimulus nanites lvl 3 and learn all your languages for 1 karma each at lvl 6 ^^

[_Pax._]

Um ... I'd have to say that the minimum Karma cost to increase anything is 1 per rating increase, regardless of applicable discounts. So that'd cost 3 Karma (raising from 1 to 4 native), for an effective 6 ranks of the skill. Not quite as good as you suggest, but still a damned neat trick!! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[StealthSigma]

Other than Adept powers ... I know of nothing that directly adds to a social skill, rather than adding to the die pools. Which makes that concern something of an edge case, yes?

...

Besides, if you actually pay Karma for R6 language skills, the Linguist quality will give you an effective 8, anyway. So even then, the Quality is pretty darned useful still.

It doesn't really matter what does something. What matters is how the rule is applied. Regardless, since it is not a native language you must still make the language check prior to conversing with the target and then you may have your skill dice capped because of your language skill. Neither of these constraints is applicable to a native language.

[Yerameyahu]

In some ways, it makes sense for 'Native' to be special… but there are plenty of ways that it doesn't make sense. Native (IRL) doesn't necessarily mean 'perfect', and there are levels of second-language attainment that might be described at least as 'native-like'. *shrug* I guess it's up the GM eyeballing the specific situation.

[Stahlseele]

Restricted Gear for a Beta Grade MBW2 i think it was.
Combine with a 4/4 Group Contact for a Warez-Network and a Comlink maxed out for Searching stuff, and you can have every skillsoft in the game in 3 days in game time for about 10% of the list price, if i remember correctly . .
Who cares about linguistics and linguist if you can simply for free download warez language chips?

[Samoth]

Restricted Gear for a Beta Grade MBW2 i think it was.
Combine with a 4/4 Group Contact for a Warez-Network and a Comlink maxed out for Searching stuff, and you can have every skillsoft in the game in 3 days in game time for about 10% of the list price, if i remember correctly . .
Who cares about linguistics and linguist if you can simply for free download warez language chips?

You can't start with Betaware, and even if you could, you couldn't afford MBW 2 at chargen.

But yes, Restricted Gear MBW2 Alpha and then some search time for skillsofts after chargen is a common trick.

[Draco18s]

In some ways, it makes sense for 'Native' to be special… but there are plenty of ways that it doesn't make sense. Native (IRL) doesn't necessarily mean 'perfect', and there are levels of second-language attainment that might be described at least as 'native-like'. *shrug* I guess it's up the GM eyeballing the specific situation.

Cough.
http://notalwaysright.com/adamant-if-a-bit-addled/21511

[StealthSigma]

In some ways, it makes sense for 'Native' to be special… but there are plenty of ways that it doesn't make sense. Native (IRL) doesn't necessarily mean 'perfect', and there are levels of second-language attainment that might be described at least as 'native-like'. *shrug* I guess it's up the GM eyeballing the specific situation.

If you're thinking of languages skills by themselves, then yes you have a point. Now use them in the context of various topics. Let's I'm an English speaking particle physicist. I know some German. I may not know enough German to adequately talk with a German particle physicist because of the complexity of it. However, I wouldn't even be able to talk to the physicist about it without the Particle Physics knowledge skill. When you were taught the concept, you were taught it and its definitions in your native language. You weren't taught particle physics in German.

As another example...

One of the closest terms in English to the German word 'Schadenfreude' is 'morose delectation' or possibly 'gloat'.

[Stahlseele]

Schadenfreude and Backpfeifengesicht are two of the best things in the german language.

[StealthSigma]

Schadenfreude and Backpfeifengesicht are two of the best things in the german language.

A face that cries out for a fist to be put in it?

Trying to spell phonetically in English...
Bach fee fen gah seeked?

[Stahlseele]

close, but no cookie.
phonetics are hard to do with written letters.
I actually think english does not have the sound pfei anywhere . . not sure though . .

and yes, basically the word means:"A Face in need of slapping"

[StealthSigma]

close, but no cookie.
phonetics are hard to do with written letters.
I actually think english does not have the sound pfei anywhere . . not sure though . .

and yes, basically the word means:"A Face in need of slapping"

Is phei is own sound? From what I was taught, and ei should be carry a similar sound to an English hard E.

[Stahlseele]

The english E is more like I in german.
and no, pfei is not it's own sound technically, it's a combination of the pf and the ei sound.
and the closest english has to pf is ph and that simply won't cut it. and the closest you have to the ei sound is the sound i makes when you say it.

[Misdemeanor]

Restricted Gear for a Beta Grade MBW2 i think it was.
Combine with a 4/4 Group Contact for a Warez-Network and a Comlink maxed out for Searching stuff, and you can have every skillsoft in the game in 3 days in game time for about 10% of the list price, if i remember correctly . .
Who cares about linguistics and linguist if you can simply for free download warez language chips?

U cant use edge on a Chip either

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

U cant use edge on a Chip either

Ummmm... Yes you can. Install a Skillwire Expert System. Bang, Edge Use for Skillsofts. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Stahlseele]

Furthermore: You don't need your points for skills.
So pump up your attributes. If the pool is big enough, the need for edge diminishes . .
And of course, TJ already mentioned the expert system. And then there are Chip-Options later on too . .