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[Ruby]

My husband and I are wondering. Can you have multiple SINs on a single commlink or do you have to have one commlink per fake SIN (or real SIN if you chose as such). I'd think you could swap out identities through something like SD cards in current cellphones but I'm not sure.

[_Pax._]

A SIN is just a number. So, in terms of using one with your comlink ... it's not even software, it's a setting, like when you set up an email client on a computer.

Which means: flick of a button, poof, new SIN being used.

[Yerameyahu]

… I'm pretty sure it's not just a number. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

This identifier (which is not just alpha-numeric) contains basic information, such as your birthdate, birthplace, and other data, encoded within the identifier.

However, it still *is* just data. Whether you can easily alter that data is another question. Incidentally, you commlink typically is supposed to contain your SIN *and* corresponding ID (more data). I would guess it's like changing your user information on a computer/iPhone today (easy, but it takes a minute).

[bannockburn]

I handle it as a chip you can exchange. Like a SIM card, with MSP, credit and SIN information

[Yerameyahu]

Yes, you'd probably want to change all that. But the new world is basically chipless, so it's more likely some kind of data transfer equivalent.

[bannockburn]

I don't know about that. Some things are left 'antiquated' by design. Making PanicButtons wireless e.g. would be the height of stupidity in my eyes. I see something as important as a SIN frome a similar point of view. Sure. You COULD transfer this thing wirelessly. But who'd want that kind of stuff on the air, where everyone and his dog can sniff and spoof it and buy porn in your good name? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Yerameyahu]

I'm not talking about 'smart', I'm just talking about 'apparently how 2070 is'. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) It's not like you can't already steal SIN+ID on the air, all the time (Unwired mentions exactly this several times, including shadowtalk about it).

[bannockburn]

You're right, of course (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
But I have a threshold of suspension of disbelief. Maybe I should have emphasized more that this is how _I_ handle it. I tend to change what I don't like, or make it work in my perception. And as "What is a SIN" is (to my knowledge) not defined anywhere, I feel free to give it a framework in my games. Call it housefluff (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[_Pax._]

I'm not talking about 'smart', I'm just talking about 'apparently how 2070 is'. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) It's not like you can't already steal SIN+ID on the air, all the time (Unwired mentions exactly this several times, including shadowtalk about it).

... which is why a lot of the data involved in a SIN (as an identity recognised by the govrnment and/or corporations) is NOT on your ommlink. Biometric data, for example. When you buy something, your commlink's SIN/ID details are sent with biometric data to a verification service, which sends back a yes/no response.

Kind of like: your PIN is not encoded anywhere on your ATM or Debit card. Then you buy something with it, the machine collects your PIN through the keypad, puts it together with your Debit card info, and calls a verification service asking "yes/no?" (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Yerameyahu]

Again, yes and no. As I just said, the SIN (+ID) contains significant information about you; it is not just a credit card number. No one said it contains all information about you, though. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) Things like biometrics are of course stored on the various SIN servers, and (*if* you're using biometric security; normal purchases don't) it might be checked. The normal SIN verification process doesn't do that, but it does verify your SIN (again, +ID).

Either way, I just think it's very likely that physical chips are not typically involved, based on the books. It doesn't really affect anything in play either way.

[KarmaInferno]

Heck, even in current day some of the wireless carriers use purely digital means of transferring user ID and address book, rather than simcards.



-k

[Krishach]

Yerameyahu is correct, of course. SIN's are not stored entirely on your comm; they are as intrinsic as a false ID, which is why they require so much time and effort to create. Your comm carries a link to said data; like wearing a picture ID badge, and like ID badges, they don't show all information that the government (corporation, etc) has on you openly. There will be private information that is never the less on your comm (like biometrics if you have a subscribed monitor), and there will be information that is part of your "identity" that is not stored on your comm.

Based on book descriptions, it would be possible to change the SIN information that a comm uses (like changing a picture in a plastic badge sleeve) or having different comms linked to different SINs (like multiple ID badges). Like any false identities, they can be used against themselves: changed SIN links on one comm leave a digital trail as you access different info. Multiple comms on your person (if you are caught) can also be a problem.

However, there is no evidence of any kind that a hardware check would be necessary for this: it is all linked by software. Changing the hardware of a comm is no different that swapping out for a 2nd comm in the first place: same hardware would have to change.

I actually have career experience on the subject, at least in modern context. NOT as a perpetrator either (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

[phlapjack77]

Aren't SINs also tied to a particular nation? UCAS, CAS, California, Denver, etc..

So a SIN is a collection of data (biometric, bank accounts, purchase activity, gps locations, etc) created and "maintained" by a centralized government / region, I would think. You use a SIN by being able to reference this collected data (legitimate data or not).

Perhaps?

[Krishach]

sort of, though information that is created and requires a SIN is not necessarily information that ties TO your SIN (like making a purchase on non-restricted material, store may require a SIN, but it doesn't (necessarily) go on your SIN record. A bank account, for example, may not (though tax implications are a bitch). They are absolutely tied to a nation.

A crude way to think about it in the US is your social security number (primary government tax ID), your drivers license (registered photo identification), your passport (government of origin), all are part of a SIN. You would need to present a SSN in the US to gain access to a credit loan, because of tax implications, but the information on the loan, and even less what it is used for, is NOT reported with your social security number (credit bureaus are a separate entity).

SINs are a shadowrun attempt to streamline the whole malarkey for players, but they are used to prove who you are and where you are from, maybe legal status, to most interested entities. Like city buses, in some places. They are not worn on the sleeve. They can be stolen and misused from your comm, but not rewritten (like credit cards). They are not so ridiculous as, say, ID cards in Paranoia (shivvvvver...)

[phlapjack77]

You seem to speak with a pretty authoritative voice on the subject of SINs - have you been involved with working on SR at some point?

[mister__joshua]

You seem to speak with a pretty authoritative voice on the subject - have you been involved with SR at some point?

I don't know about that but it's certainly helped me understand them better, so thanks! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[_Pax._]

Aren't SINs also tied to a particular nation? UCAS, CAS, California, Denver, etc..

Corporations can also issue SINs.

[Ruby]

Thanks everyone for all your input (I've been quietly following everyone's posts on this while sharing it with my husband). He was revisting his Face with the multiple SINs and had begun to wonder how his character swapped between IDs.

[VykosDarkSoul]

Thanks everyone for all your input (I've been quietly following everyone's posts on this while sharing it with my husband). He was revisting his Face with the multiple SINs and had begun to wonder how his character swapped between IDs.

<^< ......>^>......

shhhhh......its magic!!!!!.....

HEHEHEHEHHEHEHEHE....::randomly runs off around the corner::

[Ruby]

<^< ......>^>......

shhhhh......its magic!!!!!.....

HEHEHEHEHHEHEHEHE....::randomly runs off around the corner::

A hermetic mage did it? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[VykosDarkSoul]

A hermetic mage did it? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Nah...chaos mage, created a spell to randomly switch SIN's every 36.47 seconds....

[Krishach]

You seem to speak with a pretty authoritative voice on the subject of SINs - have you been involved with working on SR at some point?

Sorry, no, I didn't intend to create that impression. I'm was a fraud investigation specialist for a number of years, and I know a bit on the real-life side of this kind of forgery. I just related SIN descriptions back to what I believe is the true-life inspiration for such.

[phlapjack77]

I see now, it seems your work experience makes it easier for you to conceptualize things like a SIN. Cool. Should start calling you Nathan Ford (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Midas]

I too pretty much see a SIN as a SIM card inserted in your commlink, or some data equivalent. I think you can only run 1 SIN/commlink at any given time (who but criminals have more, and how can you be John Smith and Tommy Sixfingers at the same time?). I imagine a face character might shuffle fake SINs quite readily, but while I would imagine it would not take long to change the SIN on your commlink, I also think it would take more than a complex action to do so.

For me, changing SINs would involve 1) turning off your commlink, 2) physically taking the SIN chip out and replacing it with another, and 3) Powering the commlink up again - remember some of the data of your SIN is broadcast at all times. If pressed for time, maybe you could just go to hidden mode rather than powering off/powering up your commlink, but given the complexity of the SIN and its centrality to your existance this sort of shortcut might leave a data trail of some sort and confuse your poor 'link for a bit.

I also think it would be a bad idea having your SIN as a wireless feed to your commlink - do you really want your entire purchase history available to anyone with a modicum of skill within mutual signal range?

[Krishach]

Sorry to contradict, but as I just mentioned, your purchase history does NOT necessarily relay to your SIN. It is, as broadcast on your Comm, an ID number. You do not have personal information beaming from your comm to a database in any case. Such things are reported by the agency/business, otherwise it would be childsplay to sabotage the sending of such information in the first place.

There is no chip, either. Otherwise you would have to make a new chip for every comm, and many people have multiple comms. Ever seen the business pro with 3 cell phones? Corps can issue SINS also, and nothing says the comms can't have different SINS on each comm, as long as they do not overlap (2 comms on active with 2 SINS issued by the UCAS is a no-no).

And as for having 2 simultaneous SINs broadcasting on one comm, that is absurd. Read my post with the "2 ID badges" comment. You don't wear 2 ID badges on the outside of your shirt with DIFFERENT names and the same face for the same company, and likewise you don't broadcast 2 SINs. Changing it is simply software. Software rules of spoofing would render a chip-change moot in any case: I still wouldn't need to, even if it was ever mentioned.