Ghouls, and how they propegate Options

[StealthSigma]

StealthSigma: Depends on how you interpret "No inoculations or antiviral agent has been developed which provides any bonus or protection against any species of HMHVV, though the innate resistance to disease of dwarfs does apply, as does the Cure Disease spell, if applied in time." (RC, p 82)

I interpret it literally. Innoculations and anti-viral agents are tailored to specific diseases. There is no such thing as a penicillin for viruses. There is also no difference between the innate resistance of dwarfs and the innate resistance provided by bioware.

[Jeremiah Kraye]

You know, its funny in the Player handbook there is a description of a guy making a shiv to fight off ghouls... based on this rule that seems like a total joke, to be even scratched by a ghoul based on either of these rules basis (the hard or the softcore versions) means a huge threat of being infected with an uncurable disease that essentially removes your character from the game.

Here's a question, if a player is cyber'd how do you determine if an attack that hit him damaged his cyberlimb vs his body for infection vector purposes?

[Yerameyahu]

No hit locations, you don't.

The guy making the shiv is just acting in futile desperation, very understandable. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) To fight ghouls, don't get scratched. It's not like armor doesn't exist… or drones!

[Dakka Dakka]

AHA...okay, I see where I messed up there. you have to succeed at 10 tests to get rid of it. That makes a little more sense...

Actually it is worse than that. The Virus has power 8 so you need 8 hits on the first test to shake off the disease and get -6 dice to protective gear/medicine. If you do you are fine and do not have to worry about the disease anymore (not sure what happens with subsequent contact). If you do not get 8 hits the remaining power is added to the next roll. So even with incredible 7 hits you will have to resist power 9 on the next test. and so on. So now you see how infection equals ghouldom, unless you are below 1 ESS or put a bullet through your brain.

[Yerameyahu]

… We *just* went over that. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) You have minimum 10 tests, period, no 'shaking off'. (Unless someone can find a quote that says diseases do that?)

[Draco18s]

Actually it is worse than that. The Virus has power 8 so you need 8 hits on the first test to shake off the disease and get -6 dice to protective gear/medicine.

I'd just like to point out:

"Oh I see, it's succeeding on 10 tests"
"Actually it's worse than that, you have to succeed on one test"

Ummm? How is that worse? (Even if it was correct)

[Yerameyahu]

Hehe. I think he was just pointing out how harsh accumulating Power is; if you *don't* succeed, it only gets harder.

Personally, I'm fine with Pathogenic Defense/etc. working, as they provide a chance at a cost. I'm not at all fine with O-Cells ignoring Penetration (and they're probably way too strong anyway), at their relatively low cost. They basically cure all (meta)human diseases, isn't that the holy grail? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Draco18s]

Hehe. I think he was just pointing out how harsh accumulating Power is; if you *don't* succeed, it only gets harder.

Personally, I'm fine with Pathogenic Defense/etc. working, as they provide a chance at a cost. I'm not at all fine with O-Cells ignoring Penetration (and they're probably way too strong anyway), at their relatively low cost.

Oh right, that bit.

[Wakshaani]

Huh. I guess I have a different reading.

The rules for diseases are in Augmentation, p. 129
In a nutshell:
The (10) means, that this is the number of disease resistance tests you need to make, so one every day for 10 days in this case.
You need to reduce the power of the disease (8 ) to 0 or lose 0.1 essence points with every test. If you lose 1 essence, you become a ghoul (very likely). If you fall below 0 essence, you die.
The -6 refers to the penetration, of 'ware or pharmaceuticals, though there are very few that even work at all.

It reads, to me, that once a day, for ten days, you make the test of lose .1 essence.
If you lose 1.0 essence in total, you become a Ghoul.

Which means that if you manage to pass *1* of those tests, you wind up down .9 essence and don't Ghoulflip.

Day 11+, you don't make tests anymore as you've passed the incubation period.

I could, of course, be wrong, and I'll confess that I've never dropped the disease on anyone in one of my games, but, based purely on the quoted thing above, that'd be my read.

[Yerameyahu]

Right, that's definitely wrong. 10 is the *minimum* number of tests, but you also have to fight off all the Power (which accumulates), totaling 80 (60 in errata). The quoted bit is just an incomplete summary of the disease rules, that's all.

[bannockburn]

Yeah, my bad. What it _should_ say, is "The (10) means, that this is the minimum number of disease resistance tests you need to make, so one every day for at least 10 days in this case."

Sorry about the confusion.

[Dakka Dakka]

You are right, that you do not become a ghoul, if you pass one test. But if you do not pass the first test it gets considerably harder with each subsequent test. So you'd probably just burn a point of Edge on the first test to achieve a critical success, come to terms with being a ghoul or put a bullet through your head.

@Yerameyahu: It might be the intention that you need to roll the other tests as well, but the RAW at least is ambiguous:

The victim makes a resistance test using Body + the rating of any protective systems, implants, or medicines. Every hit reduces
the disease’s Power by 1 point. If the Power is reduced to zero, the disease takes no effect; otherwise apply relevant effects depending on the remaining Power rating.

There is no restriction that the disease only takes no effect until the next of the tests called for. Having to roll another test could be called an effect.

[bannockburn]

You are right, that you do not become a ghoul, if you pass one test.

That is not true. You need to make further tests if you do not get all the required successes in 10 rolls. And for each test you DON'T pass (meaning: less than 8 [or 6] successes), you lose 0,1 essence.
If 1 point of essence loss accumulates: Congratulations, you're now blind, stink and have claws as well as a raging appetite for long pig.

Edit: additionally, I don't think it's how it works, when you say "Having to roll another test could be called an effect.". The _effect_ of the disease is, in the case of HMHVV: Pain, nausea, essence loss, transformation.
The rules are not really ambigious. You need to make at least 10 tests. Power accumulates throughout the tests if you don't stage it down to 0. If power is left, you make further tests.

[Draco18s]

Based on the example given on the same page, the "effects" are that "other stuff." In the case of Ghoulism, it's the -0.1 essence.

[Chun] has to make a Disease Resistance
Test. Chun rolls no hits and suffers the debilitating effects
of botulism [...] malaise, nausea, and paralysis.

There's also this bit, on page 129, about Speed.

The number in parentheses is the minimum number of
Disease Resistance Tests the character must make. Even if a previous
test reduces the Power to 0, the character remains infected
and must make another test to resist the effects again after Speed
duration has passed, until the minimum number of tests have
been made.

And again under Power, p130:

Even if Power is reduced to 0, the character remains infected
until she has made all of the requisite Disease Resistance Tests (see
Speed, above). Only after the minimum number of tests have been
made and the Power reduced to 0 is the disease defeated.

I would say that in this case, RAW is very very very unambiguous.

[Dakka Dakka]

Great, now burning Edge isn't even an option, except at the tenth test and .9 ESS lost. Even at Power 6 and Penetration -3 ghouldom is all but certain for Joe Average.

[Jeremiah Kraye]

Seems silly to me and rather out and out that the power "resets" during each test rather than just being reduced by however many hits you achieve. But if that's how it's worded I won't be sicking any ghouls on my players. It isn't even a chance, which makes it a relatively stupid negative play experience.

[VykosDarkSoul]

Also remember that with the errata rules they acutally have to do physical damage to you (as opposed to just looking at you funny) and that your standard out of the book ghoul isnt all that much of a challange for your standard Runner.

Not that it isnt still dangerous, but mabye the cybered out troll ghould with 14P base on his claws with 14 dice to hit is a little much.. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

[StealthSigma]

Seems silly to me and rather out and out that the power "resets" during each test rather than just being reduced by however many hits you achieve. But if that's how it's worded I won't be sicking any ghouls on my players. It isn't even a chance, which makes it a relatively stupid negative play experience.

The power is reduced by each test by the number of hits. It's just that the total power is doled out over doses rather than all at once. It's a 60 power disease and you get 6 power every day. You have the disease until you achieve 60 hits but if you go 10 days where you fail to reduce the power to 0 then you succumb to it.

It basically works out that if you catch it, then you're spending all your edge in the first few days of the disease hoping to get a couple days where you reduce it to 0 and hope that your natural disease resistance can get you over it in 9 days or less. If you fail to get those early reduced to zero days then you're probably SoL and it would require some miraculous luck to not succumb to it. No matter what, you're probably going to lose 0.5 essence to it that can't be gained back in any way.

[Jeremiah Kraye]

The power is reduced by each test by the number of hits. It's just that the total power is doled out over doses rather than all at once. It's a 60 power disease and you get 6 power every day. You have the disease until you achieve 60 hits but if you go 10 days where you fail to reduce the power to 0 then you succumb to it.

It basically works out that if you catch it, then you're spending all your edge in the first few days of the disease hoping to get a couple days where you reduce it to 0 and hope that your natural disease resistance can get you over it in 9 days or less. If you fail to get those early reduced to zero days then you're probably SoL and it would require some miraculous luck to not succumb to it. No matter what, you're probably going to lose 0.5 essence to it that can't be gained back in any way.

Isn't there a surgery that can fix essense loss that isn't via limb replacement/loss?

As for house-ruling other than the standard reduction are there any rules changes that anyone can suggest for diseases? Is power rolling over a little much? Are there any conditions where power rolling over should be limited? How about power-undercutting (if you do extremely well one day taking away from the next).

[VykosDarkSoul]

IIRC it states directly that the revitilization treatment will NOT work on HMHVV III in the decription of the disiese

[StealthSigma]

Isn't there a surgery that can fix essense loss that isn't via limb replacement/loss?

I believe the rules for the disease explicitly state that the essence lost from it cannot be restored.

As for house-ruling other than the standard reduction are there any rules changes that anyone can suggest for diseases? Is power rolling over a little much? Are there any conditions where power rolling over should be limited? How about power-undercutting (if you do extremely well one day taking away from the next).

The rules for diseases aren't that bad. It's just the ghoul virus is extremely punitive if you catch it. Most of the other diseases are recoverable or essentially not likely to be deadly. Herpes, for example, is just 5 stun damage once a month plus malaise and agony. Compare that to what would probably be losing at least 0.5 essence or becoming a ghoul.

[Stahlseele]

http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?show...st&p=806513

Ghouls have one Main-Problem in Close Combat:
WHO IN THEIR RIGHT MIND WOULD WILLINGLY ENTER CLOSE COMBAT WITH A GHOUL?
Just as nobody who has all their marbles together should ever go hand to hand with a Troll, without some serious advantages on his side.

[StealthSigma]

http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?show...st&p=806513

Of course Stahl. Most people would need to be actively seeking out herds of ghouls to come down with it. They full and well deserve what comes. It's when the GM decides to have a little fun and say a pack of ghouls bursts into a bar the runners frequent and one runner manages a stupidly unlucky roll and gets infected where the issue comes up. Perhaps in such instances a bit of plot immunity is in order otherwise the GM risks coming across as a jerk.

[Draco18s]

Herpes, for example, is just 5 stun damage once a month plus malaise and agony. Compare that to what would probably be losing at least 0.5 essence or becoming a ghoul.

Pro-tip: don't get herpes for real, it's not so much the unbearable itching (it's like having chickenpox, only over a quarter square inch of skin), it's the fact that if you get it in certain places your life will suck horribly; like your eyes. You go blind when it flares up. And it's incurable. Sure, there are various drugs to treat it, but just makes the rash go away in days, rather than weeks.

Also FYI: cold sores are herpes, don't let anyone who is not a doctor tell you otherwise.

The good news is that transmission from person-to-person is difficult. They call it a "sexually transmitted disease" but really all that means is that it requires infected bodily fluid transfer (like kissing: hooray cold sores, the #1 oral disease in humans!).

[StealthSigma]

Pro-tip: don't get herpes for real, it's not so much the unbearable itching (it's like having chickenpox, only over a quarter square inch of skin), it's the fact that if you get it in certain places your life will suck horribly; like your eyes. You go blind when it flares up. And it's incurable. Sure, there are various drugs to treat it, but just makes the rash go away in days, rather than weeks.

Also FYI: cold sores are herpes, don't let anyone who is not a doctor tell you otherwise.

The good news is that transmission from person-to-person is difficult. They call it a "sexually transmitted disease" but really all that means is that it requires infected bodily fluid transfer (like kissing: hooray cold sores, the #1 oral disease in humans!).

I'm afraid to ask. Why did you feel compelled to tell us about the herp in such detail? I have such a horrible mental image right now.