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> replacing your senses with sim senses, better for the common man?
Egon
post Apr 15 2004, 07:48 AM
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Assumption: In 206X computer technology is fast enough to process camera and Mic data into real time sim sense.

so you could put full helmet on corp guards that give them low light, flare comp, image mag, and enhanced audio. The only cyberware they would need is a data jack. Tie in radio link, limited building orientation system, and external smart link. He would go from putz to dangerus putz real quick.

Take it a bit further and put some kind of limited battle tac master unit in the building and all sort of things are possible. System knows where the guard is at all times, where he should be, can get you a picture of what he looking at, and if you want to make life real hard on the runners what his physical condition is.

Corps could stop up grading their guards with cyberware and give them more options at one third the cost, share one helmet over 3 shifts. Corps could pump small amounts BTL code in and make guards really like their job, not fall asleep, or large amounts of BTL and make them frenzied killing machines ready to die if they can take a runner with them. But no corp would abuse the system like that. :)
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mfb
post Apr 15 2004, 08:02 AM
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you can already do the helmet thing, no datajack necessary (minus the enh audio). your battletac idea has merit--make it a function of either the Matrix security system, or the CCSS security system.
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BitBasher
post Apr 15 2004, 03:39 PM
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Then the guards automatically fail any chance whatsoever to see through a force one Concealment or Improved Invisibility. Not a good idea.
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Siege
post Apr 15 2004, 09:09 PM
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BTL doesn't process well through trodes -- other than that, the idea itself has merit.

If the designers ever develop the idea of p-fix emotional chips like Loyalty or Aggression, expect to see a rise in dedicated chipjacks. :grinbig:

Bit -- I thought illusions were directed against the mind, which means there isn't any difference between helmet based senses and implanted 'ware.

-Siege
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TheScamp
post Apr 15 2004, 09:15 PM
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Aside from the BTL stuff, everything you've mentioned is easily doable. You don't even need a datajack, really. Just build all the visuals into the helmet visor, and add some earphones.
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BitBasher
post Apr 15 2004, 09:59 PM
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QUOTE
Bit -- I thought illusions were directed against the mind, which means there isn't any difference between helmet based senses and implanted 'ware.
Yes, but they also they automatically fool any technological devices that were not paid for by essence, Which is exactly what youre dealing with.

Other than that it looks good =)
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hobgoblin
post Apr 15 2004, 10:06 PM
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QUOTE (Siege)
Bit -- I thought illusions were directed against the mind, which means there isn't any difference between helmet based senses and implanted 'ware.

while normal illusions do so, the improved ones are actualy material in effect (actualy creating or manipulating light and so on.) alltho the person benefiting from the spell would still need to be carefull so that noone is looking when opening doors and so on or the guard will know that something is wrong.

you could allways slap a ultrasound unit on the helmet to just for the hell of it, silence may take care of that but if you have all the systems acting like overlays on normal vision then the ultrasound may say that hey there is nothing there when you clearly is seeing a object with normal sight and so on (a field of silence will not allow sound to pass tru it right?).
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BitBasher
post Apr 15 2004, 10:44 PM
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Aaaah ignore me, for some reason I was thinking that there was no physical visor he was looking out of, just a display screen.
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blakkie
post Apr 15 2004, 11:35 PM
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QUOTE (hobgoblin)
QUOTE (Siege @ Apr 15 2004, 11:09 PM)
Bit -- I thought illusions were directed against the mind, which means there isn't any difference between helmet based senses and implanted 'ware.

while normal illusions do so, the improved ones are actualy material in effect (actualy creating or manipulating light and so on.) alltho the person benefiting from the spell would still need to be carefull so that noone is looking when opening doors and so on or the guard will know that something is wrong.

you could allways slap a ultrasound unit on the helmet to just for the hell of it, silence may take care of that but if you have all the systems acting like overlays on normal vision then the ultrasound may say that hey there is nothing there when you clearly is seeing a object with normal sight and so on (a field of silence will not allow sound to pass tru it right?).

I believe that Silence is effectively Invisibility to ultrasound sensors. The sensors suppositily don't see a "hole" anymore than a sighted person sees a hole in the air where an inivisible person is standing (not sure where this is in canon).

As for ultrasound, it indeed DOES "see" invisible people. Now i'm not 100% certain how a HUD helmet visor should be handled, since you are still using your eyes to visibily view something, but if the output to the ultrasound sensors was a cyber display link then you definately "see" invisible people (once again canon, i'll look up reference locations once i get back to my books). Not as well as straight sight (some steep visibility modifiers apply), but still they can't march infront of you without being detected.
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mfb
post Apr 16 2004, 12:30 AM
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if you completely replace your base sensorium with simsense, you'll be immune to mana-based illusion spells of all types, but you'll be highly vulnerable to physical illusions.
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Moonstone Spider
post Apr 16 2004, 02:39 AM
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Hmm, but how expensive are cybereyes in the first place? Your guards will still need augmentation to bdy, str, and init if they're going toe to toe with street samurai, in comparison the senseware is a tiny bit of essence and a few thousand nuyen.
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BitBasher
post Apr 16 2004, 03:49 AM
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QUOTE
Your guards will still need augmentation to bdy, str, and init if they're going toe to toe with street samurai,
Any competent security force doesnt have to build a force to go toe to toe with samurai, thats not remotely cost effective.
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mfb
post Apr 16 2004, 04:23 AM
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you don't need augs to beat street sams, you just need more numbers and better tactics. one on one, a street sam is a match for any single sec guard you throw at him--which is why you don't throw one, you throw fifty.
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Herald of Verjig...
post Apr 16 2004, 04:33 AM
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Or it's why you don't go at the sam guns blazing, but lead him into one of the hallways with a built in countermeasure. Kinda hard to kill all the guards when you are knocked out by the neurotoxin spray.
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Egon
post Apr 16 2004, 07:13 AM
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Ok I see basically 3 things being bated around here.
***Since it is wordy and sounds like a tung twister in my head I will refer to sim sense senses as SSS from now on.

1. SSS vs Illusions
The helmet as I saw it enclosed the whole head other wise what you see would get confused with your SSS. So yes the guards would be completely helpless against Improved Invisibility with out an ultrasound module. I to believe that Silence must be used to fool ultrasound. unless some one knows of rules for Improved Invisibility vs senor rating.

I dont really think the Improved Invisibility weakness is so bad. Even with out an ultrasound unit the guard with better hearing stands a better chance to find someone using Improved Invisibility then an average guard seeing through the spell. With an ultrasound sound unit he stands a really good chance.

Against normal Invisibility I think the target numbers would be the same.

2. SSS and BTL
This is more of a plot hook then a thing that would effect runners. I think the radio link to the helmet and some type of battle tac system is far more scary to the runners.

3. SSS vs Standard Cyberware
Look at it from the corp stand point. Senseware is cheep but SSS is a third cheaper. SSS comes in a box Cyberware means operations, down time, dealing a lot with a third party. Cyberware is hard to reclaim if a guard quits, is fired , or dies. SSS just gets cleaned and handed to the new guy.

I feel that other then a smartgun link the only thing that is really important to a guard is senseware and communication. These guys spend 99.5% of there time just looking around. They are never going to come close to matching a shadowruner. They are just there to tell every one where the shadowruners are so 12 of them can get to the place and slow the runners down till the people that can deal with them get there.
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