More de-errataing, ...and this time they are getting creative Options

[Thanee]

There are downsides, too.

Granted, orks still get a pretty good deal, as they have almost no disadvantages (mostly social), but they are there.

Giving a troll 2x (7+8+9+10)x5 Karma for a comparibly neglectible cost, OTOH. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Bye
Thanee

[StealthSigma]

Okay, here's a 1K karma character I made this morning, just to fool around with the system:

I'll post my 900 karma character that has a 200 karma cap on resources.... we use some tweaks to item costs (cutting out essence and permitting forbidden gear) but between swapping from bioware to cyberware equivalents and using an extra 22 karma on resources, I think near comparable die pools should be achievable. We also removed the automatics skill and moved everything into a long arms and small arms category while at the same time splitting heavy weapons into heavy weapons and missile type weapons (like grenade launchers). We also give some free contact and knowledge skills. However I still think that all told, the character would still come in under 1000 with a few tweaks.

The character is a recon long range shooter/physical infiltrator. His defense relies mostly on stealth, distance, and having a dodgy and tanky tank between him and the enemy. I'm mostly going to list out dice pools.

Spending allocation...
Attributes: 355
Combat Skills: 114
Physical Skills: 149
Social Skills: 20
Technical Skills: 60
Vehicle Skills: 18
Contacts: 22
Positive Qualities: 30
Negative Qualities: -46
Resources: 178

Resource Distribution
Augments: 199,500
Weapons/Ammo/Armor: 88,175
Vehicles: 32,975
Lifestyle: 21,100/mo for 4 separate lifestyles
Gear Stashed in Safehouses: 19,410
Drones: 27,050
Software: 22,050
Other Gear: 33,830

[ Spoiler ]

B 4, S 8, A 9, R 5, I 6, L 6, C 3, W 3, E 4

Combat
Blades 12 (Knives +2)
Heavy Weapons 11 (Assault Cannons +2)
Longarms 15 (Battle Rifles +2) [Smartgun + Synch + Tacnet R1 raises this to 21 dice in combat]
Small Arms 13
Throwing Weapons 12 (Throwing Knives +2)
Unarmed 12 (Block +2)

Physical
Climbing 15
Disguise 10
Diving 8 (SCUBA +2)
Escape Artist 12
Gymnastics 16
Infiltration 15 (Urban +2)
Navigation 8
Palming 13
Parachuting 8 (HALO +2)
Perception 17 (Visual +2) - 22 Visual, 20 Auditory
Running 15
Shadowing 10
Survival 4
Swimming 15
Tracking 8

Social
Etiquette 5 (Military +2)
Leadership 5 (Tactics +2)

Technical
Armorer 9 (Firearms +2)
Computer 8
Demolitions 8 (Underwater +2)
Electronic Warfare 9 (Jamming +2)
First Aid 8 (Combat Wounds +2)

Vehicle
Pilot Ground Craft 7
Pilot Watercraft 7 (Outboards +2)

[Sengir]

And clearly, that build is way out of bounds for what baseline Shadowrun expects

Which is also an important point: If an adventure says "starting characters" and people tackle it with 1000 Karma characters, the challenge will be somewhat underwhelming.

[_Pax._]

Which is also an important point: If an adventure says "starting characters" and people tackle it with 1000 Karma characters, the challenge will be somewhat underwhelming.

My g/f balked when I first mentioned that eventually, all the PCs in my group would get retired, and new ones would have to be made. Then I explained that I was running Missions for the group, and those adventures presuppose characters in a certain range of capability. After a while, either the PCs would not be challenged, or I'd have to spend a lot o time ramping those challenges up by reworking the Missions content to a pretty radical degree.

To her credit, her response then was "OH, well yeah, that makes perfect sense. Carry on, then!" (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[UmaroVI]

Fixed? Not really. Orks get 75 Karma worth of attributes, for only 20 Karma.

In BP-gen, orks get 50 bp of attributes for only 20 bp. Saving 30 bp is about as good as saving 55 karma.

[_Pax._]

In BP-gen, orks get 50 bp of attributes for only 20 bp. Saving 30 bp is about as good as saving 55 karma.

That's actually my point, Umaro. The claim was made that "in Karmagen, you actually pay for what you get" ... clerly implying that it ws different from BPGen that way.

And really? On that one front, they're pretty well about the same.

Except, in BPgen, for that Ork to raise their body to "average" costs exactly as much as a human buying "average" body for their metatype: 20BP. Whereas in Karmagen, it costs the Ork 45 Karma, but the Human only 25 karma.

...

So honestly, I'd have to say Karmagen is kind of the opposite of the claim put forth. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[UmaroVI]

You previously claimed BP did that better than karmagen. I agree that they are equally bad about it, but not that karmagen is worse.

[_Pax._]

You previously claimed BP did that better than karmagen. I agree that they are equally bad about it, but not that karmagen is worse.

Okay, see ... in BPgen, you pay 20BP to be an Ork, and then 20 per attribute to bring them all to "average Joe".

Or you pay nothing to be Human, and then still pay the exact same 20BP per attribute to be an "average Joe".

...

In Karmagen, though? After race is paid for, Orks pay MORE to be "average Joes" than Humans.

And I have a problem with that.

[Umidori]

The problem is that you're not using the same metric of "average Joe".

Average Joe is a flat 3 in all stats. If you are an Ork, by default you're already as strong as Joe, and you've got a better body than him.

If you want to be "Average Ork", that's different. The "average" Ork has a Body of 6 and a Strength of 5. Try getting those on a human, see how much karma you spend.

~Umi

[All4BigGuns]

The problem is that you're not using the same metric of "average Joe".

Average Joe is a flat 3 in all stats. If you are an Ork, by default you're already as strong as Joe, and you've got a better body than him.

If you want to be "Average Ork", that's different. The "average" Ork has a Body of 6 and a Strength of 5. Try getting those on a human, see how much karma you spend.

~Umi

Average Joe Human has a 3 in all stats. In order to find Average Joe <insert metatype here> you would modify that by the difference in how the stat mins and maxes for the desired metatype.

[Falconer]

No way, that is the best thing about the Karma system, that you actually have to pay for what you get.

The only rules that are needed in addition to the current version (i.e. Attributes costing x5, Metatype costing K=BP), are...

- Special Attributes are NOT paid from the pool for Physical/Mental Attributes
- Free Knowledge Skill Ranks equal to 3*(Int+Log)

And free points for Contacts equal to 3*Cha (but that is optional, as it isn't part of the BP system either).

I slightly disagree with you here.. when pulling 375 karma and you need to split it between 9 attributes or 10 (if you include magic/resonance). 25karma per stat gets all of them from 1->3. So that's more than enough karma to make an average Joe with 125 excess to raise a few to above average or exceptional. More if you lower a few to raise others. Even better, leaving an attribute low but not minimum doesn't penalize you later! (the whole reason I wanted karmagen to be so much better was because it elminates the 'starting penalty' which penalizes anyone who doesn't go either max or 1's in things) Since karmagen doesn't penalize for not maxing things out, there isn't so much pressure to max out any stat out of chargen.. you're not penalized for only raising a stat to 4 in chargen instead of going for 5 right away to save on karma when you go from 1->2 on something else, you don't need to feel guilty about a 4/2 split instead of 5/1 like you do with bp gen min/maxing.

Even BP here doesn't do much better 8 stats... 160BP later you only have 40 left to raise stats above average plus the specials.


And you're NOT paying for what you get with karmagen. That's exactly the problem. You end up with a package of freebies which are intended to offset the costs to raise the strengths even higher. The problem is there's no requirement to do so. Karmagen makes the 'human problem' even worse... as it stands under SR4 BP there's almost never any reason to play a human outside of RP. Attributes raises are worth far more than attribute reductions as well because attribute raises both raise the caps AND give free points, while attribute penalties only lower the cap but do nothing to increase costs in penalized attributes. An orc with 3 logic is not AVERAGE he's above average because of the logic penalty (the rules for converting NPC's between metatypes explicitly state to apply all the attributes positive and negative for example).



Touching into Umidories point... here's the problem.
Make a human with all 4's in everything. Ignoring magic/resonance.

45karma(1->4) x 8 + 35 (edge 2->4) == 395. (375 is almost good enough to go straight 4's in everything!)

Now do an orc.
Bod (0karma), Str (20karma), 45 karma x7, 20x2 karma orc == 375... however it cost the orc less AND the orc can spend 415 on attributes so still has nearly 100karma more). Toss on 10karma for human looking, and a sob story about how you goblinized as a teenager and your family kicked you out for fluffy human life span and you've got no major differences, outside that the orc can still raise body/str to levels a human can only dream of and it hasn't cost him one bit extra to raise his 'penalized' stats to softmax.

Troll?
5bod/str... already over 4... but the rest is only 7x45 + 40x2 troll == 395 again with BETTER stats with the mins. And an even higher attribute spending cap. (remember there is no requirement that those points actually be spent on body and strength).


If we now awaken the target... the ork makes out even better as he still has 80 karma to spare on attributes allowing a substantial magic attribute as well. A troll, 140.


Those arguing for special stats not to be included in the cap are effectively arguing that karmagen should produce stats substantially better than BP gen! (I can see a good case for excepting magic... but not really edge; but even in magics case... a slight reduction in starting power of a mage/techno isn't going to hurt things much).

Those also arguing for freebie knowledge and contacts... are out to make substantially MORE powerful 750karma characters than 400BP can even. In my experience 400BP normally makes a 600-650karma character easily leaving an extra 100 for knowledges and contacts! So these for free doesn't make sense if you're trying to keep 400BP comparable to 750karma character.



Pax: doing the same with what I suggested many of us came up with the last time this topic came up...
Doing all attributes 1->6 then applying racial template as if it were bio/cyber mod both positive and negative no stats allowed lower than 1 afterwards. The other half of this is it doesn't penalize players later in play to raise attributes since it costs as much for a troll to go from 9->10 as a human to go from 5->6 so you may actually see a troll raise those stats which we never see in play otherwise due to the extreme karma costs.

Human costs only change slightly... (edge only costs 25 instead of 35 to raise from 1->3+1 instead of 2->4)
Human costs: 385karma (slightly lower than above)

Orc:
Bod4, Str (10karma), Cha/Log (70karma to get to 5, then -1), 45x5, 20karma orc == 395 karma
Orc of course includes low-light vision and the much higher body/str caps! (genetic optomization can't compete for essence loss). So the package deal is actually costing something but raising str/bod to very high levels is cheaper... if we drop and accept that above average log/cha on an orc is a 3... we save 50 karma and it's not even close.


Effectively all the metas costs rise to roughly the same as a humans... there's very little mechanical benefit to choosing any of them from a points basis. Meaning that people don't feel penalized for RP choices. Though different metas still have great strengths/weaknesses play out. IE: a troll bouncer is still going to be a mountain of muscle compared to a puny human.

[Umidori]

Average Joe Human has a 3 in all stats. In order to find Average Joe <insert metatype here> you would modify that by the difference in how the stat mins and maxes for the desired metatype.

Not to be rude, but you're apparantly unaware that I did exactly what you are suggesting in the very post that you are quoting and commenting on...

*head scratch*

That said, "Joe Average" is the average person on the street. That average value already factors in Orks and Trolls. "Average Ork" is different than "Average Joe". They don't compare directly.

It's like if I said an "Average Joe" would be between five and a half, and six feet tall. It's stupid to say "if he's a Troll he'll be a lot taller than that!". I mean, yeah. Of course he will. He's a Troll. They're taller than your "average Joe". That's kinda what a Troll is.

The original complaint was about the increased karma costs. That a human hitting their racial average costs more than a metatype hitting their racial average when using karmagen. But my point is that karmagen operates purely on the numbers, which is actually appropriate from a game design standpoint. An ork character with a Strength of 7 is no different than a human one in regards to Strength related game subsystems. They can lift the same amounts of weight, they can throw things equally far, they deal the same melee damage codes, etc. The difference is that 1] the ork gets some of that strength for "free" (minus metatype costs) and 2] the ork has higher maximum caps. That second point is important to remember when considering the costs of metatypes - you are in fact paying for that higher upper limit when you pay to be an ork.

~Umi

[_Pax._]

If you want to be "Average Ork", that's different.

I figured it was easily implicit I was talkign about "average for your metatype". In a roomfull of Orks, if your strength is 3 you're a 90-pound weakling.

[Nath]

Okay, see ... in BPgen, you pay 20BP to be an Ork, and then 20 per attribute to bring them all to "average Joe".

Or you pay nothing to be Human, and then still pay the exact same 20BP per attribute to be an "average Joe".

...

In Karmagen, though? After race is paid for, Orks pay MORE to be "average Joes" than Humans.

And I have a problem with that.

There's no point in comparing a starting character to some demographic average of their chosen metatype. After qualities and resoures are paid for, an UCAS citizen pays more to be an "average Joe" than a Nigerian, because he gets no point for not having a SIN and being computer literate, and needs to spend some on Resources on getting a car, a flat and a comlink. How fair is that?

The creation system first and foremost intended to balance player characters within a gaming group, so that no player get to outshine the others. You do not get 400 BP or 750 karma to spend because it's been determined to be the statistical average amount for a person aged between 20-40 or a shadowrunner on his first run.
For the same amount of points, you should get the same dice pools. It's made a bit more complicated because here are things like future attribute maximums and the occasional social penalty with a racist that are hard to factor in.

Then, yes, there are nonetheless plenty of ways to bend and tweak SR rules to get cheesy builds that put all its teammates to shame.

[Falconer]

Nath the problem though is you do have absolute and relative scales you need to work with. If everyone was a human and no metas whatsoever... then yeah karma would be a snap just like you say. But as soon as you add metas and have people PAY to be those metas... then it becomes a big problem. They're buying a 'package deal' as I like to put it. What exactly is in that package is the bigger question.

On one scale... yes an elf should pay more to raise agility 2->4 than a human 1->3. Because on an absolute scale 4 is bigger than three and when firing a gun that's all that matters systemwise. However the elf is also paying points up front to be an elf... and if the costs are truly geometric. Then extremely high attributes (like trolls... why is it trolls always break systems?!) are too costly for their net gain. And worse there is no requirement to actually spend those points on 'strong' attributes... so they simply get spent on 'cheap' attributes at the same price as humans but you can spend even more than a human can so take that pink skins!

That's the reason why both positive and negative attribute mods matter... the way you make different metas different is you alter their advancement costs for certain attributes. There's only a few ways to do that. But the system needs to fit in with the rest of the game, especially the character in-game advancement rules.

My POV is simple... the cost to play an above average human should be roughly the same as that to play an above average orc/troll/elf/whatever... (everybody forgets the poor dwarves see!). The racial cost should reflect these differences in terms of package deal... and currently it doesn't. Karmagen as originally written actually made the BP problems WORSE. (you needed to spend half what you did in karma on skills as you did in BP... but attributes were still far more important than skills... so raising attributes is the single best buy you can typically make in chargen). Karma reduces this problem because it'll cost you the same now as it will later to raise stats... so you're not dicking yourself out of 3 sessions worth of karma by not raising say bod from 4->5 right away in chargen and dumpstating say cha an extra point.

[Yerameyahu]

My POV is simple... the cost to play an above average human should be roughly the same as that to play an above average orc/troll/elf/whatever

I'm not sure this should be the case, not unless we agree that people are *already* paying a fair amount for the metatype.

[Falconer]

Exactly my point Yera. As it currently stands meta costs are badly off, especially in karmagen (either pre-errata or as errataed).

On an absolute scale... the meta costs need to be reasonably well balanced to reflect their package deal strengths and weaknesses.

But on a relative scale... I don't think it's really right that a troll should pay massively more to have average stats for his type than a human does for his. All the distortions in the karmagen stem entirely from the need that it takes nearly twice as much karma for a troll to go from 8->10 as a human to go from 4->6. That massive karma cost allowance difference is all too easy on 'cheap' attributes instead simply making metas better humans than humans as written!

[_Pax._]

I'm not sure this should be the case, not unless we agree that people are *already* paying a fair amount for the metatype.

The cost for beign a meta shouldn't be foisted off on Attributes. The strength of a Metatype (attributes, primarily) should not also be a WEAKNESS (the cost of being better than minimum).

Ideally, in BP ... every meta would start off at 0BP (their vision fairly balanced to Humans' +1 Edge). The price should go up +10BP or down -5BP for every attribute adjustment they get.

Yes, that would make metas very expensive. Well, I'm an old school SR1 vet, and I remember when the ONLY way to be a meta, was to slot up Priority A for the privilege. So I don't have a problem with metas being costly enough that fewer people play them, not at all.

But the cost, again, should be on teh Race, not hidden elsewhere in the process. Name the cost up front, where everyone can see it.

[Yerameyahu]

It should, if you're not paying a fair cost for the metatype. You're not paying, in general, to be 'above average' relative to your group. You're paying for power, that's all. Buying a Strength 5 should cost what buying a Strength 5 costs, unless you already paid a fair price for the initial boost you already got.

I am not endorsing the current state of karmagen. I am only saying that it doesn't *inherently* make sense for 'average way-better-than-human-thing' to cost the same as 'average crappy-normal-human'. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) It only does if other balances are in place.

[Nath]

On one scale... yes an elf should pay more to raise agility 2->4 than a human 1->3. Because on an absolute scale 4 is bigger than three and when firing a gun that's all that matters systemwise. However the elf is also paying points up front to be an elf... and if the costs are truly geometric.

The elf is also paying points up front to be an elf... with Agility 2 and Charisma 3 (but Edge 1).

For 0 BP/karma, humans start with Edge 2, that would cost 10 PB or 10 karma to other metatype.
For 20 BP/karma, orks start with Body 4 and Strength 3, that would cost 50 BP or 60 karma otherwise.
For 25 BP/karma, dwarves start with Body 2, Strength 3 and Willpower 2, that would cost 40 BP or 45 karma otherwise.
For 30 BP/karma, elves start with Agility 2 and Charisma 3, that would cost 30 PB or 35 karma otherwise.
For 40 BP/karma, trolls start with Body 5 and Strength 5, that would cost 80 BP or 140 karma otherwise.
There is also the added benefit of base attributes not counting toward the limit on attribute spending.

To put it another way, as far as dice pool goes, humans get 10 free BP, orks 30, dwarves 15, elves 0 and trolls 40. With karma-gen, humans get 10 free karma, orks 40, dwarves 20, elves 5 and trolls 100. That is, if the character concept fits within the minimums and maximums of the metatype. Otherwise, you can consider some of those free karma or free BP to be wasted in a way. But so can any other points spent on fluff.

[Yerameyahu]

Don't forget to factor in the increased maximums. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[_Pax._]

It should, if you're not paying a fair cost for the metatype. You're not paying, in general, to be 'above average' relative to your group. You're paying for power, that's all. Buying a Strength 5 should cost what buying a Strength 5 costs, unless you already paid a fair price for the initial boost you already got.

But in neither system, foes "a 5 cost what a 5 costs".

For a human, it's either 40BP or 75 Karma. For an Ork, it's either 20BP or 45 Karma. Both of them wind up being typical examples of their species.

I am not endorsing the current state of karmagen. I am only saying that it doesn't *inherently* make sense for 'average way-better-than-human-thing' to cost the same as 'average crappy-normal-human'. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) It only does if other balances are in place.

Average should cost Average, period. If Orks are overall better than humans, then "being an Ork" is where you put the cost of that.

[Yerameyahu]

I agree. As I clearly said, the rightness of that depends on 'being an Ork' costing the right amount in the first place.

[Falconer]

Even that tends to fall apart though... elves aren't really penalized... because the attributes they get boosts to are really really relevent to many skills.

Charisma is tied to tons of social skills so gets a LOT of milage (also ties into spirits/sprites).
Agility has many more active skills tied to it than most others (logic and cha being the other big 2... intution gets perception skills though)... and most of them quite useful. So an agility boost is generally a lot more useful than a strength boost.


Really the only time strength becomes an issue is when dealing with bows.. and that's because they didn't do str/2 for base damage like they did with all the others moreso than any other reason. And then you start hitting silliness of a bow doing more damage than a main tank cannon. But that's a whole nother can o worms.


Pax: your metatype costs are way too low.
The closest thing to meta's is the 20BP metagenic improvement which both raises the max and gives a free ponit as it raises the min.
Similarly.. the attribute penalty is only worth -5BP or so. -10 is being rather generous. Why?! People don't play trolls for their charisma! The cap is normally irrelevant it costs just as much to softmax human 'average' cha3 as it does for a human to play cha3. So the cap is for most purposes irrelevent!

The closest thing in game to raising a stat without increasing it is genetic optomization. Which if memory serves is 30k & .2 essence. (so call it 5BP). That's the reason I price the negative at -5BP.

[toturi]

Character creation is so fundamental to an RPG that it really depends on the developer's vision of the world and perhaps their targeted customer demographics.