More de-errataing, ...and this time they are getting creative Options

[Falconer]

Pax... you're overcomplicating it.

All you need is just 750.
Race costs karma == BP
Buy all stats from 1-6 including specials. All this comes from half starting max. (this helps limit magic/techno while still giving mundanes an edge in natural attributes w/o magical boosts)
Apply the race template AFTER buying stats from (both positives and negatives). This is the same way the book says to alter NPC's for changing metatypes as well (look in War and Contacts and Adventures... they adjust attributes by both + and - for metatype changes). Treating the positives and negatives differently is one of the problems in the system.

Future buys and improvements are done the same way... buy up the base and then apply cyber/metatype on top of it.

I've done this a few times and it works very well. It also makes it slightly more costly for a meta to raise a penalized attribute. But this offsets the 2x race BP vs 1x. Otherwise you end up boning humans as metas still end up with attributes for free... and penalized attributes are effectively no different than human low cost attributes with a lower cap.


I don't understand the 500k equipment limit as opposed to 250k. Suddenly with that synaptic 3 right out the gate looks very tempting...

[Udoshi]

What does this mean, exactly? It sounded like you were saying Karmagen had these various discounts, then suddenly you switched to BP. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Make a BPgen with skills(2 for active) and attributes(5pts) at half price, then compare the end result to a karmagenner.

[toturi]

toturi, what proportion of characters ('in general'), and what kind, are significantly better with BP? I feel like I've seen examples before, but it's been too long. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) I had thought the answers were 'very few' and 'hyper-minmaxed'.

Glyph has pretty much answered your question. The proportions, I cannot rightly tell, since every character I have you could term hyper-minmaxed, whether it is built with BP or karma. I think he is only missing out the high Edge, high Resonance human builds. (I know I am missing something but I just cannot recall what.)

[Shortstraw]

......

So, basically, Karma-gen is cheaper on metatype, active skills, attributes in the 1-6 range and spells. BP is cheaper on everything else.

750/5 karmagen is unbearable.

Sorry couldn't help it.

[_Pax._]

All you need is just 750.
Race costs karma == BP
Buy all stats from 1-6 including specials. All this comes from half starting max. (this helps limit magic/techno while still giving mundanes an edge in natural attributes w/o magical boosts)

The mundanes don't need an edge in attributes specifically. Nor IMO do the Awakened, and Technomancers, need to get kicked inthe jimmies where their othr attributes are concerned.

If the Special attributes are excepted from the cap, then the mages/technos can choose whether or nto to short on attribute,s or to short on skills/gear/qualities, in order to afford Magic or Resonance. Everyone makes that choice for Edge.

Apply the race template AFTER buying stats from (both positives and negatives). This is the same way the book says to alter NPC's for changing metatypes as well (look in War and Contacts and Adventures... they adjust attributes by both + and - for metatype changes). Treating the positives and negatives differently is one of the problems in the system.

And what do you do if the Troll left their Charisma at 1, before applying their racial -2?

If you say "he has a 1, no big deal" ... then you've set up a situation in which Trolls will all want to leave their charisma at 1 ... because getting a 2 during creation will cost 45 Karma (2x5, plus 3x5, plux 4x5 for a 4CHA, then -2 for Troll to wind up with 2CHA), but waiting until later means it costs only 10 karma (2x5 buys him up from 1 to 2).

If you say, "okay, then Trolls have to buy their Charisma up to 3 or higher" ... then you've just increased the cost of being a Troll by 25 Karma (10 to raise to 2CHA, 15 to raise to 3CHA).

... if you treat the negatives as reductions to the maximum, though? It won't matter WHEN the Troll raises their Charisma from 1 to 2 ... it'll always cost 10 Karma. Period. Every time.

Future buys and improvements are done the same way... buy up the base and then apply cyber/metatype on top of it.

... I'm not sure I understand what you mean here.

Otherwise you end up boning humans as metas still end up with attributes for free... and penalized attributes are effectively no different than human low cost attributes with a lower cap.

I don't think charging 90 Karma to be a troll makes those attributes "free". Especially since Humans get a free attribute point, too: Edge.

I don't understand the 500k equipment limit as opposed to 250k. Suddenly with that synaptic 3 right out the gate looks very tempting...

Typo on my part. Should be 100 Karma max. Oops.

[CeeJay]

I think he is only missing out the high Edge, high Resonance human builds. (I know I am missing something but I just cannot recall what.)

Free spirits?

-CJ

[Yerameyahu]

Make a BPgen with skills(2 for active) and attributes(5pts) at half price, then compare the end result to a karmagenner.

Ah, Udoshi, thanks. That's what I thought you meant: 'BP is fine… if you totally change everything'. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) Same reaction for:

So, basically, Karma-gen is cheaper on metatype, active skills, attributes in the 1-6 range and spells. BP is cheaper on everything else.

… 'Everything else' except type, skills, attributes, and spells!? Hehe.

Yeah, Glyph's summary matches what I'd heard: BP is almost always worse.

[Sengir]

How is ignoring the comments of one man akin to purchasing a defective sourcebook?

Because that one man is the current line developer of Shadowrun, so his comments are indicative for what the future may hold. And he already has a previous track record for
a) releasing defective sourcebooks
b) not creating errata, but instead reinstating previously corrected errors

How much did you pay to read JH's comment?

2D6 Sanity, plus some wear on my table surface and forehead.

[toturi]

Yeah, Glyph's summary matches what I'd heard: BP is almost always worse.

We all see what we want to see.

[Yerameyahu]

*shrug* You're the one who said he basically covered it, and he's the one who said it's mostly these rare builds. He also said, "Karmagen usually works out better, though. I know that I am an optimizer, and my optimized builds come out a bit better in karmagen […]". Apparently I 'want' to see no other way of interpreting his apparently clear statements, which you endorsed. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[toturi]

*shrug* You're the one who said he basically covered it, and he's the one who said it's mostly these rare builds. He also said, "Karmagen usually works out better, though. I know that I am an optimizer, and my optimized builds come out a bit better in karmagen […]". Apparently I 'want' to see no other way of interpreting his apparently clear statements, which you endorsed. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Glyph listed the type of builds without classifying them as "rare" as you did. Apparently you "want" to see those builds as rare. Just because somethings are usual does not mean that the others needs be "rare".

[darthmord]

Yeah. Aftr all the debates here? I've decided that when I use KarmaGen as a GM, I'm going to do it this way:

• you get 750 Karma
• you pay 2xBP cost for your metatype
• You buy your attributes up from 1 to max (where max is 6, minus any negatives from metatype)
• You can spend up to 1/3 (250) of your karma on attributes
• Edge and Magic are not part of that limit!
• You then add in any positive adjustments from metatype to your attributes
• You get free ranks of Knowledge/Language skills (same number as under BPgen)
• Gear costs 1 karma per 2,500 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) ... max of 200 karma
• all else is per standard Karmagen.

Of course, that's just the first draft version. It needs tweaking/polishing. But at first glance, I think it's superior to the RAW version.

I did almost the same thing the last game I was running. I chose to only charge 1x BP in Karma for metatype. You bought all your attributes starting from 1 and going up to 6. Once you had your attributes set, you applied racial mods. I also required that after racial mods, no attribute could be 0 or less.

The special attributes were not part of the attribute spend limit either.

Otherwise I followed what you posted.

It worked very well for us.

[Yerameyahu]

First, I didn't say 'rare' until after you commented. But… shapeshifters, nosferatu, and Lucky-mages? Those are rare. Things that are not 'usual' are 'rare' (unusual), by definition. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

For these various (and, to my eye, identical?) karmagen fixes: darthmord, are the attribute 'negatives' being applied as actual reductions to the current score? That's how you make it sound. I rarely play karmagen, but I thought they were still only limits on the maximum (as in BPgen).

[toturi]

First, I didn't say 'rare' until after you commented. But… shapeshifters, nosferatu, and Lucky-mages? Those are rare. Things that are not 'usual' are 'rare' (unusual), by definition. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

I had declined to comment on the rarity of those builds and while you did not mention rare, you were the first to raise the rarity issue in our conversation. Things that are not "usual" can be unusual or uncommon without being rare, it is a matter of degrees. For what it is worth, shapeshifters, sapient critters, infected and lucky human mages are not uncommon (although it doesn't mean that those builds are common, actually they are all pretty well represented and I can't say that any particular build is common or usual) in my collection of min-maxed character builds.

[Yerameyahu]

Ah. I'm using 'rare' to mean unusual and uncommon and rare, so I can see what you meant. I'd bet heavily that these three types *are* very 'rare' among the general SR population, but I only intended 'not-usual'. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) (Don't expand those categories too much, either: Glyph said troll/bear shifters, nosferatu, and luck+mage humans, not just 'various infected, etc.')

My main point was only that, if these are what BPgen *isn't* worse for, it's poor evidence for the idea that BPgen isn't worse than Karmagen (again, in general/'usually', because general is what matters).

[toturi]

My main point was only that, if these are what BPgen *isn't* worse for, it's poor evidence for the idea that BPgen isn't worse than Karmagen (again, in general/'usually', because general is what matters).

And I disagree. I think that it is pretty good evidence that generally each character generation method have their own areas where it is superior to the other. In fact, I think I have some builds that used Priority too.

I am not expanding Glyph's categories. I specifically stated that those were in my collection of min-maxed character builds.

[Yerameyahu]

And I specifically said I was going off Glyph. Those are totally different arguments, though. I never said BP didn't have any areas where it's better. I said 'in general'. Again, if anything, these unusual types just go to show how it's unusual for BP to be better. *If* you're arguing that BP and Karma have roughly the same coverage of areas where each is better, and you're using *unusual* areas to support that, you're not correct.

I have no data on how balance Priority is in SR4, one way or the other. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[StealthSigma]

I normally would agree that it's better to just ignore any person's comments, but in this case, JH is THE voice of the direction that SR will take in the future, so if anyone's opinion should be listened to and evaluated, unfortunately it's his. I think.

argumentum ad verecundiam

Applied erroneously.

[Yerameyahu]

Only because you're misapplying it. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) He's not saying the guy is *right* because of authority, he's saying he's relevant because of authority.

[Samoth]

The "better under BP" things tend to be trolls or bear shapeshifters with high Body and Strength, nosferatu who buy a lot of knowledgs skills, and high Edge, high Magic human builds, which don't really work in karmagen since special Attributes also count towards the 375 point cap.

The rules in RC don't actually say that Edge and Magic/Resonance fall under the same half-Karma cap as the rest of the attributes. Not sure why they would, since they don't in BP build.

[Yerameyahu]

Yeah, that never made sense. Every time someone mentions fixes (like here), you notice they include that one.

[darthmord]

First, I didn't say 'rare' until after you commented. But… shapeshifters, nosferatu, and Lucky-mages? Those are rare. Things that are not 'usual' are 'rare' (unusual), by definition. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

For these various (and, to my eye, identical?) karmagen fixes: darthmord, are the attribute 'negatives' being applied as actual reductions to the current score? That's how you make it sound. I rarely play karmagen, but I thought they were still only limits on the maximum (as in BPgen).

That's what we did during character creation. Afterward during actual play, the costs to raise an attribute or skill were based on their current values. So the couple of metahumans my players had did pay a bit more in setting up attributes during CC but actual during game play paid to advance stats as per the book. Raising an attribute from 1 to 2 cost 10 Karma and so forth.

[tsuyoshikentsu]

Hey, here's a thought. Instead of arguing about builds, why don't we post some? I have zero experience with karmagen, so to me this entire thing looks like a he-said/she-said.

[All4BigGuns]

Hey, here's a thought. Instead of arguing about builds, why don't we post some? I have zero experience with karmagen, so to me this entire thing looks like a he-said/she-said.

Trust me, you don't want the can-of-worms of a flame war that will come of that.

[_Pax._]

Okay, here's a 1K karma character I made this morning, just to fool around with the system:

Soylent (Ork Sasobonsam Adept)
B 10, A 5, R 4/5, S 9, C 3, I 4, L 3, W 6, E 4, Ess 4.1, M 4, Init 8/9, IP 1/2
Condition Monitor boxes (Physical/Stun): 13/11
Disposable Commlink Condition Monitor: 9
Hermes Ikon Commlink Condition Monitor: 10
Armor (Ballistic/Impact): 21/21

Skills: Assensing 3, Astral Combat 4, Athletics Group 3, Blades 9 (Knives +2), Etiquette 2, First Aid 2 (Combat Wounds +2), Hardware 2 (Maglocks +2), Intimidation 3 (Physical +2), Locksmith 2, Navigation 4 (Urban +2), Perception 3, Pilot Ground Craft 1 (Bike +2), Pistols 3 (Hold-Outs +2), Stealth Group 4

Die pools: Assensing 7, Astral Combat 10, Athletics Group [Climbing 12, Gymnastics 8, Running 12, Swimming 12], Blades 14 (Knives +2), Etiquette 5, First Aid 5 (Combat Wounds +2, +4 from gear)), Hardware 5 (Maglocks +2, +3 from gear), Intimidation 6 (Physical +2), Locksmith 7 (+3 from gear), Navigation 8 (Urban +2), Perception 7 (Visual +3, Hearing +3, Smell +3 ... from implants, Gear, and powers), Pilot Ground Craft 6 (Bike +2), Pistols 8 (Hold-Outs +2), Stealth Group [Disguise 8, Infiltration 10, Palming 9, Shadowing 8]

Knowledge Skills: Anatomy 2 (Metahuman +2), Cooking 1, English N, Japanese 3 (Cityspeak +2), Or'Zet N, Seattle Area 3 (Underground +2), Urban Brawl 2

Critter Powers: Allergy, Mild: Sunlight, Dietary Requirement: Metahuman Flesh, Dual Natured, Enhanced Senses: Hearing, Enhanced Senses: Low-Light Vision, Enhanced Senses: Smell, Reduced Senses: Blind

Qualities: Adept, Albinism, Bilingual, In Debt (Borrowed 10000¥, Owes 15000¥) (2), Infertile Infected, Mania/Phobia, Common (Mild): Gambling, Ninjitsu (2), The Athlete's Way: Gliding, Wall Running

Adept Powers: Combat Sense (3), Gliding (4 meters), Improved Ability (2): Blades, Wall Running (12dicepool)

Cyberware:
. . Cybereyes (2) with Eye Recording Unit, Flare Compensation, Image Link, Protective Covers, Thermographic Vision, Vision Enhancement (3)
. . Ultrasound Sensor
Bioware:
. . Reflex Recorder: Blades
. . Synaptic Booster (1)

Gear:
. . AR Gloves
. . Archimedes Pike (working ID) with DocWagon Basic Contract, Fake SIN (4), Advanced Lifestyle
. . . . (Comforts=Low, Entertainment=Squatter, Necessities=Middle, Neighborhood=Squatter, Security=Middle; Green Plan, Haunted,
. . . . [i]Network Bottleneck, Rough Neighborhood, Trigger-Happy Landlord, Worse Neighbors, Shielded Saferoom)
. . . . (the saferoom is a custom quality of my own, for +4 points; this character wasn't originally built to share here. I'll gladly share the details if anyone wants.)
. . Autopicker (3)
. . Backpack
. . Body Cavity Escape Kit
. . C-Squared (6) x5
. . Camouflage Suit with Chemical Protection (2), Gel Packs, Insulation (2), Massaging Liners, Nonconductivity (4), Thermal Dampening (4)
. . Disposable Commlink
. . Earbuds (1) with Select Sound Filter (1)
. . Endoscope
. . Entertainment Systems Cyclops
. . Flashlight, Thermographic
. . Freeze Foam (6) x10
. . Glasscutter
. . Greatcoat with Chemical Protection, Gel Packs, Insulation, Nonconductivity (4)
. . Hermes Ikon Commlink with Analyze (6), Browse (2), Command (1), Data Bomb (4), Edit (1), Encrypt (4), Firewall (4), Novatech Navi Operating System, Purge (4)
. . Jacob Othello (Bolt Hole) with – Custom Bolt Hole –, Fake SIN (1)
. . Maglock Sequencer (3)
. . Medkit (4)
. . Medkit Supplies x2
. . Respirator (4) with Microphone (1), Olfactory Sensor (3)
. . SecureTech Forearm Guards
. . SecureTech Leg and Arm Casings
. . SecureTech Shin Guards
. . SecureTech Vitals Protector
. . Sensor Tags x20 with Motion Sensor
. . Sleeping Bag
. . Standard Rope (m) x100
. . Survival Kit
. . Tent
. . Wire Clippers
. . Woodland Camo Netting

Weapons:
. . Morrissey Elan [Pistols, DV 6S(e) vs. ½I, SA, RC 2, 5 ©] with Ceramic/Plasteel Components (Level 3), Electronic Firing, Laser Sight, Personalized Grip, Silencer, Spare Clips, Stick-n-Shock x20
. . . . Die pool: 11
. . Attack of Will (vs. Spirits) [DV 3P vs. I]
. . . . Die pool: 6
. . Cougar Fineblade Knife, Long Blade Weapon Focus (2) [Blades, DV 7P vs. I-1, Reach 1] with Lanyard, Personalized Grip, Weapon Focus (2)
. . . . Die pool: 19

--------------------

Entertainment Systems Cyclops (Entertainment Systems Cyclops)
B 4, Sen 1, Han +3/+5, Fir 3, Pil 2, Rsp 3, Sig 3, Init 5, IP 3
Physical Condition Monitor: 10
Armor (Vehicle): 6 [2]
Skills:
Gear:
. . Additional Fuel Tank
. . Anti-theft System
. . Assembly Time Improvement
. . Morphing License Plate
. . Motorcycle Gyro Stabilization
. . Pilot (2)
. . Smart Tires
. . Spoof Chips
. . Urban Camo Netting
. . Vehicle Tag Eraser

--------------------

Pilot (Pilot)
Fir 2, Pil 2, Rsp 1, Init 3, IP 3
Matrix Condition Monitor: 9
Armor (Matrix): 2
Skills:
Knowledge Skills: English N

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I didn't try to min/max, this is just a concept that can't be done with BP at all (way too expensive). In fact, this character would cost 646 BP to make - but in Karma, he's got 1 left "saved for later". And compared to BPgen, yes, I think it's grossly overpowered - by being safely competent in just too darned many areas, while also enjoying the major H2H combat edge that an Ork Ghoul's attributes afford him. Sure, a 19 die pool (with his knife) may not be the best of the best, but it's backed by a solid 7P base damage. And it's "only" a knife, so concealing it isn't super-hard. I also specifically avoided cheesing his armor - he could afford, and wear without encumbrance, FFBA Full Suit on top of his Camo suit, and he has a free hand for a shield if he wanted one.

He'd be fine in a game where everyone was built to the same level - he's got a clear niche/focus, and if everyone starts with 1K Karma there's no especial intraparty imbalance woes.

But compared to 400BP? Way. Over. The. Top.

...

I am currently working on a 1K Karma gnome hacker, and trying my inexpert best to push him as far as I can. I'll get back to you on how over-successful I am with that, if folks like.