More de-errataing, ...and this time they are getting creative Options

[All4BigGuns]

That is what a PC should look like. 750 should be for NPC opponents.

[_Pax._]

Oh, for HeroLab users, I'd be happy to share Soylent's .POR file, on request.

[_Pax._]

That is what a PC should look like. 750 should be for NPC opponents.

If you're playing a higher-power campaign, A4.

You should not have that character sitting next to a 400BP character in the same game, however. And clearly, that build is way out of bounds for what baseline Shadowrun expects .... because 400BP is that baseline, and Soylent here would cost over 150% of that to build. And if I weren't so enamored of the "parkour adept" theme for him, and didn't elect to make him more of an Infiltrator / "sneaky stabber" rather than a straight up fighter ... I could have made a very fearsome combat adept instead.

[All4BigGuns]

If you're playing a higher-power campaign, A4.

You should not have that character sitting next to a 400BP character in the same game, however. And clearly, that build is way out of bounds for what baseline Shadowrun expects .... because 400BP is that baseline, and Soylent here would cost over 150% of that to build. And if I weren't so enamored of the "parkour adept" theme for him, and didn't elect to make him more of an Infiltrator / "sneaky stabber" rather than a straight up fighter ... I could have made a very fearsome combat adept instead.

Not "higher power", such a character should be the baseline PC, and go up from there when going to "higher power".

[_Pax._]

Then the problem here is, you are completely out of synch with the core design of Shadowrun 4. Or 3, or 2, or 1, for that matter.

[Yerameyahu]

I only ask because that's a pretty unusual modification, darthmord. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) Screws trolls pretty hard, doesn't it? To avoid having a zero, they're paying a ton of karma… on top of the race cost?

Exactly: we *know* what the baseline is, because it's 400BP. You can change that for your own games, but you can't argue it's not 'the' number.

[tsuyoshikentsu]

Actually, here's a different thought entirely: Is it possible to build a 1k-Karma character which spends let's say at least 990 karma and have it come out below 400 BP?

Because if so, that would indicate the system being totally out of line with a baseline of 400 BP.

[_Pax._]

Actually, here's a different thought entirely: Is it possible to build a 1k-Karma character which spends let's say at least 990 karma and have it come out below 400 BP?

Because if so, that would indicate the system being totally out of line with a baseline of 400 BP.

No. I don't believe it is. I doubt a 1000K character would come out to anything less than 500BP. Even getting close to 500, just a bit above, would probably require some really WIERD tricks - or burning Karma on initiation and tsimilar things, which don't have a BP cost at all.

I don't really believe it's possible to build a 750 Karma character, and have it come out below 400BP.

[UmaroVI]

My best guess would be to try to blow karma on really high stats (because you apply racial modifiers first). Maybe a Bear Shifter.

Okay, let me try this.

Bear shifter: 80k/80bp
40 karma (20 bp) on Exceptional Attribute (Strength)
Raise Strength from 7 up to 13, and Body from 7 up to 12. That's 565 karma right there, but only 110 bp (note the Exceptional Attribute!)
Pay 6 karma to have the 6 bp of Knowledge Skill Points that are free in BP-gen.
Blow another 308 karma on 154 bp worth of Contacts, Money, Positive Qualities, and other 2:1 ratio things of your choice. That's 999/1000 karma spent, and 364 bp. So even a really, really ridiculous edge case like this is less than 10% under the bp cap.

[MADness]

I have been converted from BP to Karmagen. A 400 bp character with 4/3 split on attributes, max cash, and two skills @5 and like seven @4 with one specialization; has fewer points to work with. The identical karmagen character still has 150 points left.

[_Pax._]

Bear shifter: 80k/80bp

Okay, so it's theoretically possible But wow, is that EVER an edge case.

Allow me to revise my doubt, by specifying "playable character". (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[tsuyoshikentsu]

Yeah, I mean... not spending any points on skills aside from Knowledge skills seems a little corner.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Not "higher power", such a character should be the baseline PC, and go up from there when going to "higher power".

I HIGHLY Disagree with you on that...

[Jhaiisiin]

It does however explain his point of view. His "baseline" and "barely functional" characters are in the range that most people consider higher-powered.

All4BigGuns, realize no one is telling you your play style is wrong, just that you are using a different metric to grade your characters than the standard rules do, and that's where the disconnect came from. You can't say "barely functional" and then say that 1000 karma characters are the starting point, when the book specifically calls 1000 karma a level for higher powered games. Causes a bit of mis-communication, as you can see.

[Glyph]

Free spirits?

-CJ

No, I would definitely not put free spirits on the list of things that are better with BP. Take the weakest version of karmagen, 750 points with the new rules, and compare -

Under BP, you spend 250 points to be a free spirit, and have 150 points left to build a character.

Under karmagen, you spend 250 karma to be a free spirit, and have 500 karma left to build a character.

Free spirits tend to be dramatically better under karmagen.

[toturi]

That's 999/1000 karma spent, and 364 bp. So even a really, really ridiculous edge case like this is less than 10% under the bp cap.

I thought we were comparing 750 karma gen to 400 BP?

If we are comparing 1000karma to 400BP, the additional 250 karma can make a big difference.

[Falconer]

Pax:
This went back and forth a lot in the past... but I'll explain for you. Look up a chargen spreadsheet which goes by the nickname SECKSY. It gets used by a lot of people for chargen because it's karmagen as it should have been. More or less how I just described it to you.


Yes, the troll would need to buy his cha to 3... before his metatype dropped it back to 1. But that's part of the 'package deal' he saves far more karma on strength and body, than he does on the PENALIZED mental attributes.

The other problem with the original karma was that the humans got dicked over for costs because negative attributes weren't treated as negative attributes. So it cost just as much for a troll to go to 3 cha as a human did. All that stuff about cheaper costs for humans had no meaning because it was really cheaper costs for EVERYONE... and they get a head start to boot! Either the human pays the exact same amount as everyone else to reach a given number, or he gets dicked over because meta's get a head start with a starting minimum attribute which is not accurately reflected in the meta's cost.


Just to give an example... your typical orc. +3BOD, +2STR, -1CHA, -1LOG. You effectively save 15karma per rank on bod, 10 karma per rank on strength. But you end up paying 5 karma more per rank in cha & log. (yes there is a one time cost to offset the penalty, but that's why it's only race cost x1 instead of x2). So effectively the orc pays 20karma for ork... then 20 more karma to raise both log & cha by 1 offsetting his penalty... after that though he's still paying more for log and cha by a small amount, while saving a LOT of karma in comparison for str & bod.

The point of the costs is that humans are actually something you want to play as well as metas. As it stands now from a numbers standpoint under karma there is no reason to ever play a human except RP. There is nothing but mechanical disadvantages.

[tsuyoshikentsu]

Well, there's the Edge bonus.

toturi: The topic of the thread is that guy saying that we should go up to 1,000 Karma with an attribute cap of 625. We're all trying to point out why that's stupid aside to one guy defending it, who has been accused of being a sock puppet.

[phlapjack77]

We're all trying to point out why that's stupid aside to one guy defending it, who has been accused of being a sock puppet.

For the record, if that's referring to my comment, I was definitely kidding when making the sock puppet accusation...no offense meant to All4BigGuns...

But All4BigGuns, you gotta admit, seeing someone with a single-digit post count that joined the day of this thread starting, it looked kinda suspicious (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[_Pax._]

But All4BigGuns, you gotta admit, seeing someone with a single-digit post count that joined the day of this thread starting, it looked kinda suspicious (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

He's a regular on JackPoint.

[tsuyoshikentsu]

So he is. My apologies, All4; I didn't pick up on the sarcasm and didn't have the JP context.

In other news, your timing was hilariously bad, though of course that's no fault of yours.

[Thanee]

Apply the race template AFTER buying stats from (both positives and negatives).

No way, that is the best thing about the Karma system, that you actually have to pay for what you get.

The only rules that are needed in addition to the current version (i.e. Attributes costing x5, Metatype costing K=BP), are...

- Special Attributes are NOT paid from the pool for Physical/Mental Attributes
- Free Knowledge Skill Ranks equal to 3*(Int+Log)

And free points for Contacts equal to 3*Cha (but that is optional, as it isn't part of the BP system either).

Bye
Thanee

[_Pax._]

No way, that is the best thing about the Karma system, that you actually have to pay for what you get.

No, it really doesn't do that, either. BP does that better than Karma, once you bring Metahumans into it.

Let's say I want to make an Ork. I apply the Metatype, and ... well look at that, for 0 Karma, I've got Body 4. Now, what if I'm satisfied with that ...? Then hey, Bod4 for free, what a bonus that is for me, eh? And Strength ... I might not care about Strength much, so let's leave it at .... 3. Not 1 like a Human, no, it starts at 3. For 0 Karma.

Wait. What happened to "you actually have to pay for what you get" ...?

[Blade]

That's been fixed in the latest errata where Metatype cost is now taken into account (which has always been the case in the German and French versions).

[_Pax._]

Fixed? Not really. Orks get 75 Karma worth of attributes, for only 20 Karma.