Aircraft carrier as shadow forces platform, Oh the possibilities! Options Track this topic Email this topic Print this topic Download this topic Subscribe to this forum Display Modes Switch to: Outline Standard Switch to: Linear+

[Talia Invierno]

Sure, I know it can't happen realistically within the vast, vast majority of the existing games, but Rigger 3 gives us the possibility, and we can dream, can't we?

So let's say, just for fun (or for one of those nightmares GMs like to throw against PCs from time to time), that we were to design an aircraft carrier and a bit of an associated, assorted flotilla for some additional fleet defense. Its purpose is to act as a mobile base in international waters - for all practical intents and purposes its own country - for some shadow group (take your pick). Perhaps the actual SR team is one of several of this organisation's strike or espionage forces, or perhaps the actual SR team might have one or several runs linked around determining first the existence, and then the nature and extent of this fleet and the organisation which has evolved it.

Within the actual components of such a fleet, what would be needed? How to kink it? (If it could be purchased - yeah, right!) how much would it cost?

[hobgoblin]

hmm, a mercenary armada. cute.
most likely we will not be seeing nimitz class carriers but maybe something like what the us marines field with next gen vtol aircrafts and so on. in fact the JSF eliminates the need for nimitz carriers in a way as they ( the JSF that is) are able to go supersonic and take of verticaly.

your fleet is most likely buildt up like a carrier taskforce is today, 1 (or maybe 2 if you go with the smaller type) carriers coverd by cruisers and destroyers that act like a surface and submarine screen. then there is the number of cargo ships and similar to handle the more mundane stuff like fuel and other supplys. maybe a special ship or 2 designed as floating hospitals. and a fleet of its own of helicopters and small boats to act as personel and small cargo transports.

[Herald of Verjig...]

Oh the price tag!

9,000,000,000 :nuyen: with a SI and availability of "no"

A custom aircraft carrier won't be much better.
A light aircraft carrier is 500,000 DP with a markup of 5. 250,000,000 :nuyen: before engine, armor, etc. That's just the cost for the hull, filght deck, and some housing. No other contents. No navigation gear.
The only advantage is that the vehicle modification prices will be much cheaper than buying options into the design.

[Austere Emancipa...]

I'm getting the idea that you probably aren't considering owning a supercarrier-type ship? The problem with any large fleet consisting of such huge ships is that all major powers would always be aware of its location. And there's no way in hell any "shadow organization" could afford a fleet that could put up any sort of fight against the larger megacorp Navies, let alone national Navies.

Thus it would be a very, very bad idea for these ships to be known to be the headquarters for organized crime, terrorism, or anything similar. Even if they were just suspected of maybe being linked to something fishy, and they most certainly will be, they could be constantly monitored by commercial/corp owned and national assets through radars and satellites.

It would have to be a very small fleet, operating mostly with small, stealthy ships, and preferably hiding near some deserted island group. It would need support from a few supply ships, and these could be tracked to the location, but that's better than being under constant surveillance. And you really don't need large ships, when you can just use VSTOL aircraft, T-Birds, helos and the like. Both with SR rules and IRL, these can operate from ships far smaller than what's commonly known as a "carrier", light or otherwise, as far as there is constant supply from other ships as I mentioned.

[grendel]

How crazy are you talking here? Are we postulating a full sized AKIHITO-class supercarrier? Or something along the lines of a WWII fleet escort carrier? LHA? LHD?

If you wanted to go bare-bones with it, all you really need is the carrier and a support vessel. All security forces can be deployed from the carrier itself: long range surveillance drones (Global Hawk, Dark Star), inner and outerzone USW/SUW drones (Predator, Fire Hawk, UCAV), wireguided USW drones, as well as manned and unmanned strike and transport aircraft. The support vessel is there for stores and fuel since I doubt you'd want to pull your carrier in to whatever port is nearest.

If we're going to suspend all sense of disbelief, though, you could have the carrier surrounded by two or three corvette or frigate sized combatants, responsible for mid to outer zone USW/SUW surveillance and defense. Each of these vessels could be equipped with their own fleets of surveillance and combat drones. Additionally you could have a small force of minisubmarines dedicated to the defense of the CVBG. Add in two or three support vessels making the rounds to supply food and fuel to everyone and there you have it.

If you wanted to get really crazy, though, why not just have a fleet of half a dozen Kvaerner-Maersk TRITON-class submarines? Each of which is roughly the size of a TYPHOON-class SSBN. Convert their cargo holds to hangars and have vectored thrust, tilt-wing, and rotorcraft inside. Mount recessed turrets for vertically launched ASCMs, cruise missiles, and SAMs, as well as torpedo tubes for ADCAP, wake-homing, and supercavitating torpedos.

[hobgoblin]

hmm, a submersible carrier, nice idea :)

[Austere Emancipa...]

If you really want a fleet that provides a believable defense, enough to make megacorps and large nations mind their own business, we're talking at least 20-30 billion :nuyen: , which accounts for a medium-sized carrier, a significant number of aircraft and drones, a few destroyers and frigates, and some smaller ships.

Just an Akihito with a full complement of aircraft and ammunition is in the 10-15 billion range, depending on how many missiles and drones you want. Then you need to have a crew, around 6000 men, which isn't going to be cheap either.

And remember, the monthly upkeep is equal to 1% of the original full cost. That's 100-150 million :nuyen: per month for just the Akihito.

[Talia Invierno]

Crazy as we want to get - and have it NPC-feasible ;)

[Fahr]

this sounds like the sort of thing that the MET might run (is that the name - the mercenary group in europe)

or maybe a dragon might keep something like this operating if it was useful...

remember, it would only get shut down if the long term cost of its actions warranted the cost of taking it out. anyone who had the money to set this up has the clout to keep it out of the way of megas. besides where is the profit for destroying it? unless it was targetting only you, it could be useful deniable asset.

heck for cannon disbeleif, there are pirated sattelites, and they are almost as big an investment.

-Mike R.

[nezumi]

Yeah, I'd go with submarine launched aircraft carriers. You won't have to deal with hiding everything, plus the technology is actually pretty old (the Japanese in WWII had submarines specially equiped to sustain and launch a handful of fighters, plus they had one man kamikaze submarines.)

[Austere Emancipa...]

[GunnerJ]

I'm surprised nobody's made a Snow Crash reference yet. Well, here it is:

omg make sure we take REASON into account when designing this thing el oh el.

[Voran]

I believe Shadows of North America mentions that the CAS has developed/fieldtesting a submersible carrier type craft, able to launch a handful of man/unmanned aircraft. That'd be a nice base of operations, probably a bit harder to track a sub.

[Backgammon]

[Austere Emancipa...]

[CardboardArmor]

Why settle for less? Go for the gold! Try and cajole for that Akihito and a full fighter wing, too!

[Guest_Crimsondude 2.0_*]

[Crusher Bob]

A submersible carrier is probably the way to go. The Soviet Typhoon SSBN ran around 35,000 tones, that about the same displacement as the French, Indian, British, and Argentinian.

Argentina:
Veinticinco De Mayo ~20K tons (scrapped)

Britain

Ark Royal ~20K tons

India
Vikrant ~20K tons
Viraat ~28K tons

France
Clemenceau ~ 32K tons (retired)
...

You should be able to built a sub to both launch and recover planes, though doing so in any sort of rough seas or bad weather...

One of the things that people don't seem to notice about VTOL is that is greatly reduces your payload, the Harriers taking off vertically can hardly carry anything.

Building this monster would be something very few shipyards in the world would be capable of, so everyone in the world would know about it. Also you are not likely to be able to get an at sea time of more that maybe 180 days (maybe 270 if you are desperate), so you'll need a port to put into as well.

Of course, if you start with a Bond villan underwater city, that should give you the port and the sub yards both. But where did the city come from?
:D

[Austere Emancipa...]

[CardboardArmor]

Not even a need for max-range if they have Exocets or other ELR ASM's.

Course, this is also contingent on the other guys not having Phalanx guns.

[Austere Emancipa...]

Anything the sub would have to worry about would not have Phalanx guns. They might have ANDREWS or some similar systems. I'm not even sure yet if conventional projectile weapons offer any defense against missiles whatsoever in canon SR.

But, like discussed elsewhere, such systems aren't 100% proof, and missile volleys from maximum range would still be the aircrafts best hope. They sure as hell wouldn't wander near the ships, to be targeted by the ships' point defense weapons themselves.

And you'll probably want some rather more modern missiles than Exocets. The AM.39 is 89 years old in 2063. The SS-N-49 Sirocco is the closest equivalent. Regardless, it would be in the organizations best interest to keep any combat as far away from the sub/carrier as possible, and thus the aircraft would still be operating at max range. Just the aircrafts max range + the missiles' max range.

[Edit]And again, your points are quite valid for realistic and Real World discussion, but less so when you look at the actual rules, and the craziness we're contemplating here.[/Edit]

[Kanada Ten]

I cast invisibility on the missile.

[Austere Emancipa...]

...And summon a spirit to Conceal it and cover it in Ruthenium?

[KillaJ]

[Crusher Bob]

Mostly it's a maintenance issue. Ships are at sea have it a bit better because they can repair some of the stuff themselves, but a sub usually can't.

A typical SSBN patrol pattern will be something like 90 days on patrol follow by 30 days of maintenance and crew replacement. With a year long overhaul every ~7 years (depends on models, etc).


The 180-270 day limit for all three: crew, supplies, maintenance. Its much more economical (and much better for personnel retention) to use shorter patrols.