Vicious Blow and Non-Standard Stun Damage Options

[Umidori]

A character may choose to use a weapon or unarmed attack that normally inflicts Stun damage in such a way that it inflicts Physical damage instead. The character suffers a –2 dice pool modifier on her Attack Test. If the attack succeeds, the Damage Value of the attack remains the same, but the attack results in Physical damage rather than Stun damage.

In a nutshell, the wording here suggests ANY weapon that normally inflicts Stun damage would inflict Physical damage instead. So what if I took a Stun Baton to someone via this technique? That's just crazy, right?

Edit: And a related afterthought, would stun batons receive the +1 DV to clubs for Arnis de Mano? Because the Chummer character generator seems to treat this as the case, but not sure that's not a bug.

Additional Edit: And getting back to the Vicious Blow aspect of things... aside from unarmed, aren't there only three melee weapons that deal non-electrical stun? Saps, chairs, and metahuman bodies. Wouldn't that actually seem to suggest that the inclusion of stun damage melee weapons, which are mostly electrical weapons, was intended to work with said electrical damage? Still seems kinda nuts though...

Since I'm On A Roll: Sledgehammers are listed as Reach 1 weapons. Can you dual wield them? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

~Umi

[Yerameyahu]

I assume you're asking for RAW-not-reasonable answers? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Lantzer]

1) Don't be silly
2) Don't be silly
3) Don't be silly
4) Don't be silly... er... ah, what the heck. Go nuts. It's silly but kinda cool looking. I'll just stand over there and get your wrist splints ready.

Really, what did you expect for an answer?

[Umidori]

I'm actually honestly stumped on this.

A player sprang it on me and I can't really find a good RAW reason why this wouldn't work out. Logic wise, sure. But the rules are the rules, and this is an odd case for me. I could, of course, simply use GM fiat or a house ruling, but with stuff like this I like to explore the posibilities and give the player the benefit of the doubt, do some research, share what I find, and weigh the matter fairly with them.

It seems like one of those rare cases where the rule wording is pretty much as cut and dry as you could expect or hope for, but where it seems like the full implications of the ruling just never occured to anyone.

It's in Arsenal, which is well written and specifically states it overrules prior rulings, so I can't throw it out on grounds of poor quality of the source. And while it seems absurd on some levels, I have to ask myself is it honestly game breaking? You can already deal comparable amounts of physical damage with other melee weapons. A mace, which is actually more legal than a Stun Baton, does STR/2 +3, meaning with a strength of 5 you're doing the same base damage of 6P, and with 7+ strength you're doing more than that.

Of course, a mace's armor penetration doesn't compare to electrical, but that's actually another area of curiosity - assuming the conversion to physical, how would that affect the ArPen? And how would damage type conversion affect the electrical secondary effects? These could both be big areas where how that gets handles affects just how reasonable using a Vicious Blow Stun Baton would be.

Also, elecrical melee weapons have their downsides.

[1] They have limited charges, and once depleted they're back to being sticks, at which point if you have less than 10 strength, your damage drops. (Perhaps this could even be worked into the Vicious Blow usage? Make them consume twice the charge on an attack?)

[2] Stun Damage is commonly considered superior in many situations, making conversion to physical situational at best. I don't see letting someone with a Stun Baton deal Physical damage instead of an equal amount of Electrical damage to be much of a problem. Electrical already works against machines and spirits, the only real area of significant concern would be barriers, but that's not so bad.

Overall, I could see this going either way.

(Oh, and also totally serious about the Arnis de Mano thing as well. Sledge hammer, not so much. Although the thought of a dwarven berserker knuckling down with a pair is kind of hilarious.)

~Umi

[Yerameyahu]

It's not that it's a problem (for the reasons you suggest), just that it's silly. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) Ideally, the rules wouldn't be silly, and we fix them when they are. It tends to distract from the immersion.

[Umidori]

Is it really that silly, though?

A normal unarmed attack inflicts bruising and whatnot in the form of stun damage, based off your strength. Somehow this martial arts technique changes the damage (without altering your strength in any way) such that instead of bruising and stunning your opponent, you're now doing bleeding type damage more akin to wounds inflicted by katanas and uzis. Sure, that's not silly or unrealistic.

Let's run with the notion of using double the charge. Maybe there's "some way" of hitting someone with a stun baton that causes it to discharge more than it normally would, override the safeties, something like that. Maybe the electrical contacts are pressure sensitive, whatever fluff you like, you can make it work. So imagine that instead of just a normal shock, via the boosted discharge you're actually producing an effect similar to arc welding or something, literally searing and burning through matter with intense heat and ionization. So when you get hit, instead of it being a full body effect, it's highly localized. It leaves a nasty burn in the place that you hit them.

That seems fairly reasonable. At least as reasonable as countless other things in SR.

My point is I don't think I'd be okay with dismissing this just based on "no, that's far too silly!", because I honestly think it's not really all that outlandish with the proper handling. This is particularly true with the style of game my players and I are enjoying, in which there's a definite quirk to the world, a subtle sort of dry humor underlying things, an undercurrent of fantastical and outlandish that resonates with a world as fantastical and outlandish as SR provides.

Ideally? I know that some of the gents who worked in ways on the books and the rules in question sometimes come around and have answers for stuff like this, or can have the question passed on to them eventually by intermediaries and whatnot. Barring that, some of the more experienced forumgoers honestly and seriously weighing in on the idea despite its silliness would be nice as well.

If no one has much more to offer than "Stop that! Silly! And a bit suspect I think...", well, I guess I'm on my own then. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

~Umi

[Yerameyahu]

But nothing in your first paragraph is relevant for tasers. If tasers can be modified this way, that's gear, not kung-fu. *That's* what's silly: tasing someone skillfully doesn't really make sense here. The fact that you had to ask about all of these shows you twigged to the same thing we all would. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

I assume Vicious Blow *is* intended for just saps, chairs, etc.; and critically, fists, which you mentioned in passing.

[UmaroVI]

RAW, yes, most definitely you can vicious blow a stun baton. Being a bad enough dude to be good at murdering people with a stun baton isn't really that unbelievable, either. It's not like you can't kill people with overflow! What's weird is being able to destroy vehicles and walls and stuff by electrocuting them so hard, since normally you just can't damage them at all with a stun baton.

RAW, also, you certainly do get +1 DV with stun batons from the +1 DV with clubs martial arts, and I have no idea why anyone would think this is either strange or a problem. You can stage damage up with net hits anyways, and I don't see anything even remotely suspect about this.

The only other way I know to get stun damage melee attacks is by using some means of attaching Smoke or Sound elemental effects onto your melee attacks. Did you know that if your sword is loud enough it becomes a nonlethal weapon?

[Yerameyahu]

What's weird is being able to destroy vehicles and walls and stuff by electrocuting them so hard, since normally you just can't damage them at all with a stun baton.

Hehe. You'd need a lot of net hits still, but yeah.

[phlapjack77]

RAW just goes to show there should probably be damage types, like Physical, Energy, etc...the P vs. S thing just stops making sense in many cases...something like Hero System maybe...

[Udoshi]

In a nutshell, the wording here suggests ANY weapon that normally inflicts Stun damage would inflict Physical damage instead. So what if I took a Stun Baton to someone via this technique? That's just crazy, right?

Shit, I used this in my crazy LA game. My hacker eventaully picked up an Ares Shockbeam, and used this maneuver with it.
He was enough of a mad scientist that the GM didn't care what the SOURCE of his antivehicle lightning gun was, because it was hilarious.

Much like riposte doesn't specify a melee attack, Vicious Blow doesn't specify a melee weapon.

[Umidori]

I'd noticed that it didn't specify one, actually, but kinda felt that was almost too clearly cheese. Also it helps that my players haven't realized it. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

As for the original matter, I might just have to fiat this. Ah, well.

~Umi

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Much like riposte doesn't specify a melee attack, Vicious Blow doesn't specify a melee weapon.

It shouldn't have to, since it is pretty obvious. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
That is why there is a GM, so he can employ some common sense.

[Yerameyahu]

Is a gun shot a 'Blow', vicious or otherwise? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[The Jopp]

So technically speaking I can start using vicious blow with a stun baton to blast drones and vehicles to shit. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

[All4BigGuns]

The only other way I know to get stun damage melee attacks is by using some means of attaching Smoke or Sound elemental effects onto your melee attacks.

Or ya know, a punch without the bone implants. Oh snap, but people get told to ignore the Unarmed Combat skill without that stuff because it's supposedly "suboptimal" without that stuff. Oops.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

So technically speaking I can start using vicious blow with a stun baton to blast drones and vehicles to shit. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

No, because laying two electrical contacts upon someone is not a Blow.
You could use the Baton to deliver a Physical Blow, but not get the Electrical Damage out of it (ie. it is a Club, not a Taser, at that point). Same basic principle as the Shock Glove. Either you get club damage, or electrical damage, but never both. and Since Electrical Damage is not a "blow" then you cannot turn it from Stun to Physical. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Umidori]

I think by "technically" he meant "according to RAW". Because this isn't just a case of the rules failing to state something isn't allowed, it's also a case in which the very wording of the rules almost completely suggests the something IS allowed. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

~Umi

[Laughing One]

I could see some ways to viciously implement a stone baton. Say, zap them in the roof of the mouth or other places that are extra sensitive to electricity. I know this feels a bit parallel to Called shot, but this entire maneuver is parallel to Called shot in a way.

As a GM I would not allow using this on barriers (just like using a chair viciously on a wall is no different than using a chair mercifully on a wall).

[Yerameyahu]

… The roof of the mouth?

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

… The roof of the mouth?

That would have to hurt... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/frown.gif)

[Yerameyahu]

I'm not sure it would do P taser damage, but I'm just wondering how you're hitting that spot during combat. As a coup de grâce, sure.

[UmaroVI]

Whatever you are doing that kills people when you taser them hard enough, you do that.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

I'm not sure it would do P taser damage, but I'm just wondering how you're hitting that spot during combat. As a coup de grâce, sure.

Oh, definitely. Just thinking about the effects, is all. That would really suck.

[Yerameyahu]

Don't you know anything, Umaro? Tasers *never* kill people, it's always their fault for having a heart condition. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)