"Special Player Characters", For the crazy Powergamer in all of us :) Options

[Yerameyahu]

I endorse your line of reasoning 100% here.

Excuse me, I have to go lie down for a while.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Excuse me, I have to go lie down for a while.

Heh... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[The Wrestling Tr...]

Idea behind this Char is the granite skin combined with mystic armor giving him a total of 9/9 hardened armor. Anything below 9 dmg is just deflected (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[ Spoiler ]

== Info ==
Street Name: Tiny
Name: Jason Jr. Maxton
Movement: 15/35, Swim: 7
Karma: 0
Street Cred: 0
Notoriety: 2
Public Awareness: 0
Troll Male Age 19
Height 2.40m Weight 250kg
Composure: 6
Judge Intentions: 7
Lift/Carry: 15 (105 kg/70 kg)
Memory: 5
Nuyen: 0

== Attributes ==
BOD: 8
AGI: 6 (10)
REA: 4
STR: 7
CHA: 3
INT: 4
LOG: 2
WIL: 3
EDG: 1
MAG: 5

== Derived Attributes ==
Essence: 5.0
Initiative: 8
IP: 1
Astral Initiative: 8
Astral IP: 3
Matrix Initiative: 8
Matrix IP: 1
Physical Damage Track: 12
Stun Damage Track: 10

== Active Skills ==
Climbing : 1 Pool: 8
Clubs : 6 [Hammers] Pool: 19 (21)
Etiquette : 1 Pool: 4
Flight : 1 Pool: 8
Gymnastics : 1 Pool: 11
Heavy Weapons : 1 [Grenade Launchers] Pool: 13 (15)
Perception : 2 Pool: 6
Running : 1 Pool: 8
Survival : 1 Pool: 4
Swimming : 1 Pool: 8
Unarmed Combat : 1 Pool: 11

== Knowledge Skills ==
Alcohol : 4 Pool: 8
Bars and Clubs : 4 Pool: 8
Biology : 1 Pool: 3
Combat Tactics : 2 Pool: 4
English : N Pool: 0
Italian : 2 Pool: 6
Magical Threats : 2 Pool: 4
Parazoology : 2 Pool: 4
Underworld : 1 Pool: 5

== Contacts ==
Sensei (1, 5)

== Qualities ==
Addiction (Mild) (Alcohol)
Adept
Allergy (Common, Moderate) (Soy Products)
Changeling (Class III SURGE)
Dermal Alteration (Granite Shell)
Distinctive Style
Extravagant Eyes
Impaired Attribute (LOG)
Metagenetic Improvement (AGI)
Poor Self Control (Combat Monster)
Restricted Gear (Rating 2)
Spirit Bane (Air Spirits)
Thermographic Vision

== Powers ==
Combat Sense Rating: 3
Empathic Healing
Improved Ability (Combat) (Clubs) Rating: 3
Mystic Armor Rating: 5

== Lifestyles ==
Low 3 months

== Cyberware/Bioware ==
Genetic Optimization (AGI)
Muscle Toner Rating 4

== Armor ==
6 Tees casualwear (Horizon)0/0
Vashon Island businesswear (Shiawase Fashion)0/0

== Weapons ==
ArmTech MGL-12
+Airburst Link
+Personalized Grip
+Skinlink
+Smartgun System
DV: n. def. AP: - RC: 1
Minigrenade: Flash-Bang
DV: 6S (10m Radius) AP: -3 RC: 0
Minigrenade: High Explosive
DV: 10P (-2/m) AP: -2 RC: 0
Minigrenade: Incendiary
DV: n. def.S AP: - RC: 0
Minigrenade: Ink
DV: 0 AP: - RC: 0
Sledge Hammer
+Custom Look Rating 2
+Metahuman Customization
+Personalized Grip, Melee
+Tracker Rating 4
+Weapon Focus
DV: 7P AP: - RC: 0
Unarmed Attack
DV: 4S AP: - RC: 0

== Commlink ==
Transys Avalon (4, 0, 0, 4)

== Gear ==
Fake License (Weapon Focus) Rating 4
Fake License (Muscle Toner) Rating 4
Fake SIN (Roberto Leone) Rating 4
Goggles Rating 6
+Vision Enhancement Rating 3
+Vision Magnification
+Flare Compensation
+Image Link
+Smartlink
Minigrenade: Flash-Bang x12
Minigrenade: High Explosive x12
Minigrenade: Incendiary x12
Minigrenade: Ink x12
Taéngelé (Falan) (bottle) x3
Tool Kit (Reperaturset Stein)
Weapon Focus (bonded) (Sledge Hammer) Rating 4

[CeeJay]

Idea behind this Char is the granite skin combined with mystic armor giving him a total of 9/9 hardened armor. Anything below 9 dmg is just deflected (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Why do you think the mystic armor is also hardened? Just because granite shell is hardened doesn't turn the mystic armor into hardened armor, too. Or does it?

-CJ

[The Wrestling Tr...]

Well it just says by RAW that it isn't compatible with WORN ARMOR and since mystic armor is NOT WORN it will stack (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

You could also add Titanium Bones and such things to raise the armor even more, since it's NOT WORN on the skin (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

Runners Companion p.112
" The character’s skin contains massive calcite inclusions that make it appear grayish and hard as rock. Treat Granite Shell as 3/3 armor that counts as Hardened Armor (p. 288, SR4). This quality is not compatible with any worn armor and counts for Armor and Encumbrance (p. 149, SR4)."

[Stahlseele]

"And because it does not say that Trolls can't fly, i am now airborne"
You get the full ammount in soft armor and if the damage after that is below the Hardened ammount of 3 you actually get the full benefits of hardened armor.

[The Wrestling Tr...]

I would say it's up to the GM because by RAW it's doable.
Problem is like you stated, everyone has a seperate interpretation about such things since the Books don't cover that area

[Stahlseele]

Hardened Armor is, in SR4, mostly useless.
Under SR3 it was really boss. You straight up ignored Stun Damage and any Damage below the Hardened armor. And Armor lowered Damage directly.
So Hardened 3 was pretty good, because you could tack on 10 normal Armor and lower any Damage taken by 10 and then it usually was below the 3 points hardened Armor. And then you ignore anything.

[Yerameyahu]

I don't see how 'augmenting' Hardened Armor is any kind of RAW. It definitely makes Drake, Granite, etc. powerful, but that's not exactly a good reason. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) Hardened Armor isn't contagious. You get 3/3 'Hardened' and 6/6 normal, for a total *perhaps* of 9/9 normal with a 3/3 Hardened effect to be checked first.

Stahlseele, to try and get more power, you could argue that it's checked second, but that's kinda nuts. Hardened Armor says you check the Hardened effect and 'don't bother to soak' if it's better. To make this work, you have to assume that the other armor is separate and there are 2 soak tests: Mystic/other soak, then Hardened check, then 3/3 soak. However, there is only one soak test in combat.

[The Wrestling Tr...]

But having granite armor would be totaly pointless as a "positive quality" since you can't combine it with any worn armor. While other people easily get 12/8 armor without min maxing you're stuck with 3/3 ?
In that case it's more a negative quality instead of something positive. The reason I thought it would stack is, because there is only one soak test (like yerameyahu mentioned) and mystic armor doesn't count as "worn armor".

[Yerameyahu]

I agree they suck, but that's not an okay way to fix them. Like I said, you can easily have one Damage Resistance and still have things work: 1) check Hardened effect against incoming attack; 2) soak as normal with 9/9. This is how spirits do it, and it's how Granite works solo.

I agree Granite, Drake, etc. should be fixed. You'd need at least 6 Hardened armor to do really anything (at that level, block holdouts and weak melee attacks).

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

But having granite armor would be totaly pointless as a "positive quality" since you can't combine it with any worn armor. While other people easily get 12/8 armor without min maxing you're stuck with 3/3 ?
In that case it's more a negative quality instead of something positive. The reason I thought it would stack is, because there is only one soak test (like yerameyahu mentioned) and mystic armor doesn't count as "worn armor".

BUT, Mystic Armor is NOT HARDENED. It will stack to 9/9, but it will only have 3 of which that is Hardened. SO you ignore any thing that is 3DV or less, and then anything over, you have 9 armor for.

However, never discount that you will always have 3 points of Hardened Armor, even Nude. Helpful, that, when you get shot with flechette rounds...

[Yerameyahu]

You're never/always nude, you're the Thing without the trunks. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Is there any other scenario where 3 points of Hardened armor would matter, and does the Hardened aspect even count? Against flechette (as if), the DV is well above 3, so really you're just saying 'you have 3 armor'. Better to just have a dermal +1 at that point. Are there *any* attacks below 3 DV? Darts? Extremely weak punches (Stun already, and you'd soak that with or without 3 extra dice)? We've been through this before with Drake 4/4… there's just nothing this could ever meaningfully apply to.

[Stahlseele]

Make it so the DV actually gets lowered by the ammount of hardened armor for example?
Or make it so that you can simply ignore all Stun-Damage from Attacks not Magical or Chemical?

[NiL_FisK_Urd]

Hard Armor would be cool if it just reduces damage by its amount, but then you would have to tone down spirits ^^

[Yerameyahu]

Yeah, is that how it was in SR3? Re: spirits, we did have a big thread about changing ITNW, and 'auto-hits' on soak was one of the options (I didn't like how it worked out, though). Flat reduction seems to be a problem often; I'm not wild about how it works in Eclipse Phase, for example. It's a tricky problem. But we can agree that 3/3 and 4/4 aren't really functional.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

You're never/always nude, you're the Thing without the trunks. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Is there any other scenario where 3 points of Hardened armor would matter, and does the Hardened aspect even count? Against flechette (as if), the DV is well above 3, so really you're just saying 'you have 3 armor'. Better to just have a dermal +1 at that point. Are there *any* attacks below 3 DV? Darts? Extremely weak punches (Stun already, and you'd soak that with or without 3 extra dice)? We've been through this before with Drake 4/4… there's just nothing this could ever meaningfully apply to.

Heh... Okay... Point Taken... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Darts are DV 0, Yes
A Drake with The Surge Quality would then have 7/7 Hardened, which is not insignificant. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) Though even then, I would not choose that path for any of my characters. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Yerameyahu]

Yeah, 7/7 is just enough to shrug off weaker melee and 'small-caliber' bullets (with only a couple net hits and no Called Shot). If that's what you're going for, I feel like some kind of inherent Trauma Damper, Platelet Factory, or Regeneration effect would be better (toned down, tweaked, etc. first). The other problem is it's not ITNW, so you still have a mere 7/7 normal armor (typically the barest minimum for a runner).

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Yeah, 7/7 is just enough to shrug off weaker melee and 'small-caliber' bullets (with only a couple net hits and no Called Shot). If that's what you're going for, I feel like some kind of inherent Trauma Damper, Platelet Factory, or Regeneration effect would be better (toned down, tweaked, etc. first). The other problem is it's not ITNW, so you still have a mere 7/7 normal armor (typically the barest minimum for a runner).

Yeah, I kind of agree with that. 7/7 is nice, but not at the expense of wearing other armor. *shrug* (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Neraph]

I had considered a troll drake adept with Infusion (?) to boost armor. He'd have something like 11 normally and then more with a boost. Even then, though, that's a lot of effort for the same armor that a Body 4 mage can get with PPP + FFBA + Armor.

[Stahlseele]

Yeah, under SR3, Armor DIRECTLY DECREASES DAMAGE.
And Hardened Armor ignores ALL STUN even then when the damage is much higher than the Armor itself.
And it ignores all PHYSICAL Damage, as long as the Damage is Equal or less than the Armor.

Yes, SR3 Hardened Armor is basically an Iron-Man-Suit.

[Yerameyahu]

But it was also rare and probably too good, anyway. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) Hardened armor effects in RPGs are not easy to do right, esp. given the rest of the SR4 system in place.

[Stahlseele]

Yeah, Hardened Armor was MilSpec only.
Normal Armor still reduced Damage by it's ammount.
So the TN to resist went from double digits to low single digits in most cases . .
But then you still needed enough net hits to actually stage it all down . .
It does not matter if you only have to roll 2's. If you have to roll 16 two's to not die you will die with a body of 8 in most cases.
SR3 had not stun instead of physical damage mechanic. You took physical? You resist physical. You took Stun? You resist Stun.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Yeah, Hardened Armor was MilSpec only.
Normal Armor still reduced Damage by it's ammount.
So the TN to resist went from double digits to low single digits in most cases . .
But then you still needed enough net hits to actually stage it all down . .
It does not matter if you only have to roll 2's. If you have to roll 16 two's to not die you will die with a body of 8 in most cases.
SR3 had not stun instead of physical damage mechanic. You took physical? You resist physical. You took Stun? You resist Stun.

In that situation, You would only ever need to roll 8 2's to stage from Deadly to No Damage. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Stahlseele]

No, you would need to roll 8 two's to get fromt he net hits to only deadly damage.
And THEN you need to roll ANOTHER 8 two's to get to 0 damage taken.