"Special Player Characters", For the crazy Powergamer in all of us :) Options

[Halinn]

For the whole force = min & max attribute:

This attribute determines a free spirit’s natural minimums and maximums for all attributes.

Determines =/= is. The minimum can be determined by force, if it's based on the starting force.

Slightly later, we get this:

A free spirit’s Force rating is the natural maximum for all Physical and Mental attributes, as well as its Edge attribute

Here we get clearly that the maximum is equal to force. There would literally be no reason to include this sentence if the previous one stated that all attributes = force.

Also, while not precisely rules text, this bit from the rules on creating FS characters helps to frame intention.

The PC has a greater level of detail, because, as one of the story’s protagonists, it is more important than NPC free spirits. As such, they follow somewhat different rules.

I do not believe that by a greater level of detail, they meant uniformity of attributes.

[Udoshi]

Here we get clearly that the maximum is equal to force. There would literally be no reason to include this sentence if the previous one stated that all attributes = force.

Catalyst is woefully un-precise in pretty much all of their rules

Anyway, if Force didn't decide the minimum value too, then it wouldn't say that attributes started out at 2 as well. It would be 1 if Force wasn't the minimum too, which is it.
It also says this even later than your example, so the order in which it's presented doesn't matter when judging intent - and just reinforces that Force=Min+max.

[Shortstraw]

It's force is the natural maximum which can be modified by such things as exceptional attribute which would still require you to raise the attribute as normal.

[Udoshi]

Good eye. Exceptional attribute and Metagenetic Improvement are basically the only two ways for a PC Free Spirit to get values above Force.

[Sephiroth]

Lightning Reflexes too.

[Shortstraw]

oo very nice actually worth taking

[Udoshi]

Lightning Reflexes too.

Forgot about this one. Its actually worth it on a free spirit.

Also worth noting is that Free Spirits have Augmented Maximums as normal(force x 1.5), which doesn't really matter unless you're using attribute boost spells, but it's there.

[Yerameyahu]

Ha, Metagenic free spirits… sigh. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Ha, Metagenic free spirits… sigh. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

Indeed... was still laughing when you posted. Will the insanity ever stop? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Udoshi]

Ha, Metagenic free spirits… sigh. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

Man, its like you guys don't even read up on these things before deciding whether its possible or not. Surge rules have a specific mention for critters and non-human entities.

That being said it can be funny enough to work sometimes, though I put it in the other thread.

[Yerameyahu]

It's funny regardless of what the rules say, is the point. People do try stuff like this all the time, and it's equally bad if the rules (incorrectly) allow it. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

So here is a crazy querstion, that I am not sure which side I fall upon.

When creating an Infected, the Infected Quality is a just that, A Quality. So, when you are creating an Infected in Karma Gen, how does that fall out? For example:

I want an Infected Dwarf (Goblin).

Is the Cost 25 for the Race (Dwarf) and then an additional 35 BP for the Goblin for a total of 60 BP (or 60 Karma in Karma Gen due to Errata)
or
Is it 25 BP for the Dwarf, and 35 BP (x2) for the Infected Quality for a total of 95 Karma in Errated Karma Gen?

I am theory crafting here...
Thanks

[All4BigGuns]

So here is a crazy querstion, that I am not sure which side I fall upon.

When creating an Infected, the Infected Quality is a just that, A Quality. So, when you are creating an Infected in Karma Gen, how does that fall out? For example:

I want an Infected Dwarf (Goblin).

Is the Cost 25 for the Race (Dwarf) and then an additional 35 BP for the Goblin for a total of 60 BP (or 60 Karma in Karma Gen due to Errata)
or
Is it 25 BP for the Dwarf, and 35 BP (x2) for the Infected Quality for a total of 95 Karma in Errated Karma Gen?

I am theory crafting here...
Thanks

It's the last one. I just--for the heck of it--did a little 'theory crafting' on a vampire last night, so yeah, it's the metatype cost plus the quality x 2. (Which pretty much means if you wanna make a vampire, you have to use the new point total to get a decent build)

[Yerameyahu]

TJ, I forget, how does that interact with the normal PQ limit (35BP)? Some of them are greater than that. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) We always just ignore it, but I'm curious if that's 'wrong'.

Is that still the same 'decent build' definition you used in the last thread?

[All4BigGuns]

TJ, I forget, how does that interact with the normal PQ limit (35BP)? Some of them are greater than that. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) We always just ignore it, but I'm curious if that's 'wrong'.

Is that still the same 'decent build' definition you used in the last thread?

Can't remember what page it was, but I know I read that those didn't count toward that limit (if they did, than most of them would just be flat impossible to take).

As to the 'decent build', think about it, with metatype cost, plus the cost of the quality, you really need a significant increase to get a build equivalent to a character without the extra expense of the quality. Especially with vampire considering 200 karma or 100 BP just to be one (300 or 150 for nosferatu).

[Udoshi]

I'm of the mind that in karmagen the cost is doubled - at least for ghouls, which is when it last came up, because you get more than you paid for.

But I'm also of the mind that infected qualities are basically Metatype Addons that got qualified as Qualities for some reason, and shouldn't cost double even though they do.

[All4BigGuns]

I'm of the mind that in karmagen the cost is doubled - at least for ghouls, which is when it last came up, because you get more than you paid for.

But I'm also of the mind that infected qualities are basically Metatype Addons that got qualified as Qualities for some reason, and shouldn't cost double even though they do.

It's doubled because all Qualities get doubled in cost.

[Udoshi]

It's doubled because all Qualities get doubled in cost.

yeah i pointed that out.

But when you look at what an infected quality DOES, its basically a second metatype slapped onto the first. IE a 'second race'.
And races don't get doubled.
So it just seems kind of odd that a blanket rule(for your regular qualities) changes something it wasn't quite meant to.(shit guys we can't make ghouls a metatype, what do)
Its easy to quote the rules and say what happens, but its wierd when you think about the why of it.

[All4BigGuns]

yeah i pointed that out.

But when you look at what an infected quality DOES, its basically a second metatype slapped onto the first. IE a 'second race'.
And races don't get doubled.
So it just seems kind of odd that a blanket rule(for your regular qualities) changes something it wasn't quite meant to.(shit guys we can't make ghouls a metatype, what do)
Its easy to quote the rules and say what happens, but its wierd when you think about the why of it.

Yeah, it sucks, but ya gotta deal with it to make characters by the rules (otherwise it's cheating).

[Dyspeptic]

Can't remember what page it was, but I know I read that those didn't count toward that limit (if they did, than most of them would just be flat impossible to take).

As to the 'decent build', think about it, with metatype cost, plus the cost of the quality, you really need a significant increase to get a build equivalent to a character without the extra expense of the quality. Especially with vampire considering 200 karma or 100 BP just to be one (300 or 150 for nosferatu).

Runners' Companion, page 96 sidebar.

[Udoshi]

Yeah, it sucks, but ya gotta deal with it to make characters by the rules (otherwise it's cheating).

It is, however, prime houserule material

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Thanks for the clarifications, everyone. I was thinking it doubled as a quality, but just wanted to make sure.
And no, the Infected Quality does not count towards the 35 point limit.

Awesomeness...
Now to see how well my Zoroastrian Magical Threats Hunter actually turns out. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
Thanks to Caadium for the original idea. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[darthmord]

I would remind you that NPC free spirits and PC free spirits use entirely different, and incompatable, rulesets.

NPC Free Spirit rules are pretty much better in every way, anyway. The power point system is really kinda dumb.

But yes, you've found a good example: NPC Free spirits can raise one attribute at a time cheaply, or boost force to raise EVERYTHING at once for an obscene amount.
Keep in mind that force 7 would cost 70 karma, and also gives you magic and edge 7, both of which are worth 35 points each.

What was likely meant was that the initial Force of a PC Free Spirit sets the Attribute Minimums and the Final Force value sets the Attribute Maximums.

So as a PC FS starts at Force 2 and can raise Force up to 6, their stats are all 2's across the board and can go up to 6 in each normal/special attribute, limited by the PC FS's Force Attribute.

Sadly the wording that was ultimately used doesn't work terribly well.

[Udoshi]

Sadly, that's not how it actually works. You are right about the terrible wording, but Force sets the minimum too, and stats are dragged upwards as force increases.

As evidenced by all stats starting at force instead of 1.

[Shortstraw]

I would suggest paying the double for infected but adding it after attributes so you aren't also paying more for the increased attributes.