"Special Player Characters", For the crazy Powergamer in all of us :) Options

[Shortstraw]

What was likely meant was that the initial Force of a PC Free Spirit sets the Attribute Minimums and the Final Force value sets the Attribute Maximums.

So as a PC FS starts at Force 2 and can raise Force up to 6, their stats are all 2's across the board and can go up to 6 in each normal/special attribute, limited by the PC FS's Force Attribute.

Sadly the wording that was ultimately used doesn't work terribly well.

All spirits attributes are based on force why change it just for PC spirits.

[Udoshi]

All spirits attributes are based on force why change it just for PC spirits.

This. So hard this.

[Stahlseele]

Because you only would need to spend the Karma for raising Force, not for raising Attributes themselves.
Going from Force 5 to Force 6 is probably a LOT cheaper than raising ALL Attributes from 5 to 6 by themselves right?
A little bit unfair compared to the MetaSapientHumans who have to go that route i would guess . .

[Shortstraw]

They also don't have to spend most of their BP on their metatype. Also losing essence reduces all their stats.

[Yerameyahu]

It's just a huge mess overall, we know that. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Halinn]

Assuming karmagen, a force 6 FS is 340 karma. Spending that amount on stats for any other type won't get you anywhere close to that.

[Udoshi]

Because you only would need to spend the Karma for raising Force, not for raising Attributes themselves.
Going from Force 5 to Force 6 is probably a LOT cheaper than raising ALL Attributes from 5 to 6 by themselves right?
A little bit unfair compared to the MetaSapientHumans who have to go that route i would guess . .

Yes. This is why you pay 250BP up front to be a free spirit. The convenience cost of having to only raise one attribute is included already.
You know, kind of like how trolls get are expensive but get a ton of free attributes too!

Assuming karmagen, a force 6 FS is 340 karma. Spending that amount on stats for any other type won't get you anywhere close to that.

However, its actually pretty balanced. While free spirits get nice stats, they don't get HIGH stats. Pretty much everyone else on the team is going to be better than them at the their specialty.
Spirits really don't get access to gear and augmentation bonuses. Even foci are specifically disallowed. While they have nice stats across the board.... that's basically all they are ever going to have.
Like the team samurai looking at them across the safehouse table, going 'haha, I have 10 agility and 9 reaction, stop being jealous and TRY and touch this'.

[Yerameyahu]

They can't dodge the spirit's spells and powers, and it's not using a gun… so why would it care? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) Besides, this is assuming the role the FS is trying for is 'team samurai'.

[Blackbird71]

Well if I would be the GM i would at least charge between 10'000 - 20'000 Yen per Karma point if you want to buy that bullet (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
But it would be a worthwhile investment, since it could be the one thing that helps you to survive a nasty enemy

Explanation for the high cost:
Normal mages have a magic attribute of around 3-4 and you need someone that has AT LEAST 6 magic. This makes the whole thing very rare to find. Also the powerfull mage needs to have learned anchoring metamagic AND be crazy enough to offer such a service, since he has to deal with the drain of a Force 12 fireball to bind it to the bullet.
I'd imagine that maybe 10-15 mages around the world would offer such a service and it would be VERY expensive!

Why does the whole fireball-bullet concept make me think of the caster gun in Outlaw Star? For anyone not familiar with the show, it's a gun that fires special shells that are expensive and hard to come by, as each one casts a different spell on impact, some more powerful than others.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

They can't dodge the spirit's spells and powers, and it's not using a gun… so why would it care? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) Besides, this is assuming the role the FS is trying for is 'team samurai'.

Indeed... Thank You Yerameyahu... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Shortstraw]

Assuming karmagen, a force 6 FS is 340 karma. Spending that amount on stats for any other type won't get you anywhere close to that.

This is why Hardy wants to increase the amount of karma you get to 1000. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

[Udoshi]

This is why Hardy wants to increase the amount of karma you get to 1000. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

What?

[Halinn]

However, its actually pretty balanced. While free spirits get nice stats, they don't get HIGH stats. Pretty much everyone else on the team is going to be better than them at the their specialty.
Spirits really don't get access to gear and augmentation bonuses. Even foci are specifically disallowed. While they have nice stats across the board.... that's basically all they are ever going to have.
Like the team samurai looking at them across the safehouse table, going 'haha, I have 10 agility and 9 reaction, stop being jealous and TRY and touch this'.

And the FS looks back and says "12 hardened armor, bitch". And activates Movement power, Concealment power and uses Fear or Influence or whatever method of disabling the opponent was chosen.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

This is why Hardy wants to increase the amount of karma you get to 1000. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

Which makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. J. Hardy is not thinking things through correctly. AS has been demonstrated on more than one occasion about this very topic. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[All4BigGuns]

No where does it state that the other attributes automatically increase as you buy up the Magic rating (Force) of the free spirit PC in character creation. They start at the same rating, but after that, all that increases is the maximum. Sorry, but I need to see something from a developer as proof that the intention is for them to only pay to raise the one attribute to raise them all.

[pbangarth]

Surge rules have a specific mention for critters and non-human entities.

I can't find such mention except for Runners Companion, page 73, "The first step when creating a changeling character is to choose a normal metatype human, elf, dwarf, ork, or troll), metavariant (p. 46), or, contingent on gamemaster approval, a Non-Metahuman sapient." Every description I can find of the Surge process in Runners Companion talks about modifications to genetic material.

Spirits don't have genetic material.

Can you tell me where you find support for your position?

[Udoshi]

And the FS looks back and says "12 hardened armor, bitch". And activates Movement power, Concealment power and uses Fear or Influence or whatever method of disabling the opponent was chosen.

Just so you know all of these powers take Complex Actions to use. Spirits get two passes.They're really not that great.

I can't find such mention except for Runners Companion, page 73, "The first step when creating a changeling character is to choose a normal metatype human, elf, dwarf, ork, or troll), metavariant (p. 46), or, contingent on gamemaster approval, a Non-Metahuman sapient." Every description I can find of the Surge process in Runners Companion talks about modifications to genetic material.

Spirits don't have genetic material.

Can you tell me where you find support for your position?

Page 100, Surge and Critters: It should be noted that SURGE is not an exclusively meta -human phenomenon, etc

Spirits ARE critters.

And sometimes, giving a free spirit rock star hair is too funny to pass up.

[Yerameyahu]

It's not about making sense, pbangarth. It's about "the rules don't say I can't… assuming the GM is an idiot about approval".

[Udoshi]

It's not about making sense, pbangarth. It's about "the rules don't say I can't… assuming the GM is an idiot about approval".

In the absence of a GM, its best to go by raw.

Sr4 is full of so many ambigious things that are 'up to the gamemaster's discretion' that there is really no standardized game.

For example, the game that wrapped up recently had a Free Spirit with Martial Arts in it, because the player wanted to play an ancient shinto spirit warrior - except Martial Arts aren't on the list of allowed spirit qualities, so its not allowed. Our gm overrode that, on the grounds of being interesting and concept fitting, but its still technically an illegal play.

[Shortstraw]

Which makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. J. Hardy is not thinkling things through correctly. AS has been demonstrated on more than one occasion about this very topic. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

I figured this was a perfect example of that particular brand of nonsense.

[Yerameyahu]

Those GM approval notes are in there for a reason, Udoshi. I know it's traditional in 'charop' to assume the GM allows everything, but that's precisely how you get stuff like metagenics on 'critters' that have no genes. You give a great example: the GM is free to do what's *good* for the game, like allowing Martial Arts. That is his job. But assuming he says 'yes' to everything is not 'RAW', as you suggest.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

And sometimes, giving a free spirit rock star hair is too funny to pass up.

Don't need to Surge a Spirit to Get Rock Star Hair.
I thought it was pretty obvious. Especially since the powers were already listed.

Mutable Form works for that just fine. Combined with Realistic Form, and he even looks normal as well. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Sephiroth]

No where does it state that the other attributes automatically increase as you buy up the Magic rating (Force) of the free spirit PC in character creation. They start at the same rating, but after that, all that increases is the maximum. Sorry, but I need to see something from a developer as proof that the intention is for them to only pay to raise the one attribute to raise them all.

You'll have to take my word for it, unfortunately, because I don't remember what thread it was in, but some time ago, Aaron (who wrote the FSPC rules) explicitly stated that the intention is for Free Spirit PC's to raise attributes individually. One reason he gave for this is that the NPC spirit rules make it so that a very high-STR spirit is also usually very agile, very tough, and very intelligent. The FSPC rules of raising attributes individually is intended (among other things) to allow more variety in FSPC builds. Also, contrary to what Udoshi claims, the "convenience cost" of only having to raise one attribute is NOT factored in to the 250 BP racial cost. The 250 BP comes more from the fact that you start at a 2 in all attributes, can fly, move incredibly quickly due to your completely astral nature, can quasi-teleport using metaplanar shortcuts, get access to potent critter powers that can't be counterspelled (like Influence, Accident, Weather Control, Divining, and Regeneration), and other things of that nature.

[Neraph]

Double Post. My third ever.

[Neraph]

Geomancy does not ignore Astral Hazing. Geomancy is for Places not Mobile Mana Fields.
And a Magician does not ignore it either, since he is -4 Magic while Astrally Hazed. Sucks to pay for all that magic (50-75 points), just for a -10 point Flaw that reduces your magic back to 1-2.

I can refute that, but that's neither here nor there (Geomancy does not exactly say what you're trying to make it say). You can get a similar effect through Filtering.

EDIT: nevermind, already said. I really need to read the whole thread before I post..

For the whole force = min & max attribute:

Determines =/= is. The minimum can be determined by force, if it's based on the starting force.

Slightly later, we get this:
Here we get clearly that the maximum is equal to force. There would literally be no reason to include this sentence if the previous one stated that all attributes = force.

Also, while not precisely rules text, this bit from the rules on creating FS characters helps to frame intention.
I do not believe that by a greater level of detail, they meant uniformity of attributes.

The underlined is an argument in semantics. If I determine that this is water I am drinking, then it is water I am drinking. If the Force determines the minimum, then the force is the minimum. This also goes with the later sentence about having to raise Force to raise other attributes.

Can't remember what page it was, but I know I read that those didn't count toward that limit (if they did, than most of them would just be flat impossible to take).

As to the 'decent build', think about it, with metatype cost, plus the cost of the quality, you really need a significant increase to get a build equivalent to a character without the extra expense of the quality. Especially with vampire considering 200 karma or 100 BP just to be one (300 or 150 for nosferatu).

When do the effects of the attribute increases come into play in Karmagen? That's an important question, because raising a Body from 1 to 2 is easier than a 5 to 6 (for human ghouls, to choose one at random).

As for more on FSPCs, I've been working on some houserules to correct them and bring them more in line with other spirits. IIRC the designer for them said that he had it worded differently and at a cost of 65 BP for all stats starting at 2 and raising each individually (like some people think it should be), but somewhere along the line it was increased to 250 BP and the wording changed. If I'm paying 65 BP for a spirit, I'll buy each attribute separately. If I'm paying 250 I'll need them all to raise at the same time, please. This is simply for a viability approach.