New to Shadowrun, some questions to help me get started |
New to Shadowrun, some questions to help me get started |
Jul 27 2012, 08:52 PM
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#1
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Target Group: Members Posts: 24 Joined: 26-July 12 Member No.: 53,087 |
Over a decade ago, I had a friend who used to regale me with stories of "running the shadows." It sounded like lots of fun, but unfortunatley I never had the opportunity to try the game.
Now, I find myself with an established gaming group that may be looking to try something new in the near future, so I thought it would be a good time to give Shadowrun a go. I've done a bit of research on multiple sites, and for various reasons, I've decided that the SR3 rules will probably work best for us. That having been said, I've come up with a number of questions I'd like to figure out before I get started. Please bear with me, as there is so much I don't know, and learning a new game can be a bit overwhelming. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif) First off, is there any difference between the Third Edition rule book published by FanPro and the one by FASA? I ask because the FanPro one seems to be available at a cheaper price for similar quality. The cover appears the same, but that doesn't necessarily mean anything. I know that the FASA works are generally considered to be better quality, but I wasn't sure if that extended to the rule book itself, or if in this case, FanPro just reprinted the same book. From what I've read, SR2 supplements are generally considered to be better quality than the SR3 stuff, but they are supposed to be compatible between both editions. So are there any SR2 books that would be considered essential (or even just really good) to have starting out? Are there any SR3 books worth picking up as well? Are there any published adventures (either SR2 or 3) that would be ideal for introducing a new group to the game? Are there any specific things from SR2 that I would be well-advised to add to an SR3 game? For that matter, is there anything in SR4 that would be useful to use? Are there any general house rules that are so common that I should consider using them right from the start? I'm sure I'll have more questions going forward, but this should at least be enough to help me pick out some books and start buying what I need to get up and running. Thanks in advance for your patience and help! |
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Jul 27 2012, 09:14 PM
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#2
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,642 Joined: 22-April 12 From: somewhere far beyond sanity Member No.: 51,886 |
1) I didn't know that FanPro published English material. FanPro was the German publisher for SR2 & 3 and parts of SR4 (iirc). So no, there shouldn't be a difference. If you are German, however, take FanPro material. The translation usually leads to included errata (sometimes some quirks (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) )
2) Most of the SR2 stuff are great adventures. I love the Harlequin campaign (Harlequin's back: not so much). That's just my opinion, others are really good as well. SR3 adventures are good as well. Just go with what interests you. They are compatible between SR2 and SR3, because the damage codes stay the same. 3) No thoughts to house rules, as I don't play SR2/3 any more. From SR4: Use opposing tests for stealth. It is really worth it, imo (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) Have fun starting out and welcome to this forum, I guess (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) |
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Jul 27 2012, 09:42 PM
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#3
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Target Group: Members Posts: 24 Joined: 26-July 12 Member No.: 53,087 |
Thanks for the quick response!
Yeah, I found the English FanPro stuff on Amazon - a "very good" copy of the FASA book seems to run $30-$50, while I can get a "like new" FanPro for as low as $7 (both in paperback). I've seen Harlequin mentioned elsewhere as a good adventure as well. Can you give me just a quick idea of what it's about? |
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Jul 27 2012, 09:59 PM
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#4
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,642 Joined: 22-April 12 From: somewhere far beyond sanity Member No.: 51,886 |
A facepainted psycho-immortal-elf has a feud with another immortal elf (less pycho, but what does that mean, when you're immortal?). Runners are tools of face-painted psycho and it can be run with several different (and unrelated) adventures inbetween.
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Jul 27 2012, 10:01 PM
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#5
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Prime Runner Ascendant Group: Members Posts: 17,568 Joined: 26-March 09 From: Aurora, Colorado Member No.: 17,022 |
A facepainted psycho-immortal-elf has a feud with another immortal elf (less pycho, but what does that mean, when you're immortal?). Runners are tools of face-painted psycho and it can be run with several different (and unrelated) adventures inbetween. Indeed... we jsut finished up the original (in 4th Edition even) recently. Was a lot of fun. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) |
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Jul 27 2012, 10:06 PM
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#6
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,642 Joined: 22-April 12 From: somewhere far beyond sanity Member No.: 51,886 |
I've never played it. I have run it ... 5 times by now.
I REALLY want to play it some time (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) |
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Jul 27 2012, 10:09 PM
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#7
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Prime Runner Ascendant Group: Members Posts: 17,568 Joined: 26-March 09 From: Aurora, Colorado Member No.: 17,022 |
I've never played it. I have run it ... 5 times by now. I REALLY want to play it some time (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) Good Luck on that... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) |
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Jul 27 2012, 10:10 PM
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#8
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,642 Joined: 22-April 12 From: somewhere far beyond sanity Member No.: 51,886 |
Yeah, it wouldn't be fun anymore, probably, since I know it by heart ... But it is still a great campaign.
So! not to derail this thread any further: help the newbie (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) |
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Jul 27 2012, 10:19 PM
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#9
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,840 Joined: 24-July 02 From: Lubbock, TX Member No.: 3,024 |
Keep in Mind you can purchase many SR2/3 PDFs from drivethrurpg, and IIRC some are available print on demand.
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Jul 27 2012, 10:24 PM
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#10
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,642 Joined: 22-April 12 From: somewhere far beyond sanity Member No.: 51,886 |
A short question, though, Blackbird: Why not start with SR4? It is much friendlier to starting players, imo. Needs more work to adapt older adventures, of course.
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Jul 27 2012, 10:49 PM
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#11
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,006 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
First off, is there any difference between the Third Edition rule book published by FanPro and the one by FASA? I ask because the FanPro one seems to be available at a cheaper price for similar quality. The cover appears the same, but that doesn't necessarily mean anything. I know that the FASA works are generally considered to be better quality, but I wasn't sure if that extended to the rule book itself, or if in this case, FanPro just reprinted the same book. IIRC the FanPro printings include some additional errata, but there's nothing of significant quantity or importance to make that critical (it's not like Rigger 3 where you'd need to keep pages of errata with the book to be sure you didn't miss things). QUOTE From what I've read, SR2 supplements are generally considered to be better quality than the SR3 stuff Eh. The average quality is better, and a higher proportion of the best supplements come from the SR2 era (and the SR1 era), but until Shadows of Europe and later it wasn't bad. QUOTE So are there any SR2 books that would be considered essential (or even just really good) to have starting out? Are there any SR3 books worth picking up as well? For SR3, the core books, obviously (Shadowrun Companion, Cannon Companion, Man and Machine, Magic in the Shadows. Matrix, Rigger 3 Revised, and Shadowrun Companion). New Seattle is good to get some specific feel, as is Corporate Download. Beyond that, you probably want to get your feet a bit wet before casting too much wider. QUOTE Are there any published adventures (either SR2 or 3) that would be ideal for introducing a new group to the game? First Run is iconic, of course. I'll have to give it some thought, but the published adventures that stand out most strongly are written for an experienced team (both in terms of players and in terms of earned karma), not a new group. QUOTE Are there any specific things from SR2 that I would be well-advised to add to an SR3 game? Danger, Will Robinson! Mixing editions without having a feel for either edition seems like a recipe for disaster. Besides, the SR2->SR3 transition was mostly small changes that were clearly good ones (watch someone come out with a bunch of changes I'd forgotten). If you really want you could bring back the Skill Web (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) QUOTE For that matter, is there anything in SR4 that would be useful to use? No. They really are fundamentally incompatible systems, even down to the fluff. QUOTE Are there any general house rules that are so common that I should consider using them right from the start? You could always check out the SR3R Project (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) but the details really depend on what the disposition of your group is like (and, of course, of you as a GM). ~J |
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Jul 27 2012, 10:51 PM
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#12
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Target Group: Members Posts: 24 Joined: 26-July 12 Member No.: 53,087 |
Keep in Mind you can purchase many SR2/3 PDFs from drivethrurpg, and IIRC some are available print on demand. I generally prefer a physical copy to PDFs. I will look into the PoD options though, thanks for pointing that out. A short question, though, Blackbird: Why not start with SR4? It is much friendlier to starting players, imo. Needs more work to adapt older adventures, of course. As I mentioned before, there were a number of reasons, but just to list a few of the bigger decision points: Part of it is the difference in flavor; I much prefer the old school cyberpunk style to the whole "transhumanism" bit (the wirless mechaincs and concept were a big turn off). Also, while the gameplay mechanics were streamlined in SR4, character creation seems to be a lot more complex. If I'm going to be running a game, I don't have a problem learning a lot of complex rules and helping the players through them during gameplay, but I know some of my players will balk at a difficult character creation process, and that would set the tone and their attitude for the rest of the game. Plus, I actually found some of the SR3 gameplay mechanics to be more interesting; less complex does not always mean more fun to play. Price is another factor; getting started in a new game system is always a bit of an investment. From what I've seen, I can acquire a small library of the older stuff for what it would cost me to just get 2-3 of the newer books. |
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Jul 27 2012, 10:58 PM
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#13
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Target Group: Members Posts: 24 Joined: 26-July 12 Member No.: 53,087 |
IIRC the FanPro printings include some additional errata, but there's nothing of significant quantity or importance to make that critical (it's not like Rigger 3 where you'd need to keep pages of errata with the book to be sure you didn't miss things). Eh. The average quality is better, and a higher proportion of the best supplements come from the SR2 era (and the SR1 era), but until Shadows of Europe and later it wasn't bad. For SR3, the core books, obviously (Shadowrun Companion, Cannon Companion, Man and Machine, Magic in the Shadows. Matrix, Rigger 3 Revised, and Shadowrun Companion). New Seattle is good to get some specific feel, as is Corporate Download. Beyond that, you probably want to get your feet a bit wet before casting too much wider. First Run is iconic, of course. I'll have to give it some thought, but the published adventures that stand out most strongly are written for an experienced team (both in terms of players and in terms of earned karma), not a new group. Danger, Will Robinson! Mixing editions without having a feel for either edition seems like a recipe for disaster. Besides, the SR2->SR3 transition was mostly small changes that were clearly good ones (watch someone come out with a bunch of changes I'd forgotten). If you really want you could bring back the Skill Web (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) No. They really are fundamentally incompatible systems, even down to the fluff. You could always check out the SR3R Project (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) but the details really depend on what the disposition of your group is like (and, of course, of you as a GM). ~J Thanks for the suggestions, that gives me a lot to work with. I know that modifying stuff without really knowing the basics can get tricky, but I like to know what to look for and expect, and I prefer to learn from others' experience when possible as it saves the time and hassle of making my own mistakes. I'm not going to try to do some major Frankenstein hybrid right out of the gate, I was mainly just wanting to know if there was anything fundamentally lacking in SR3 that needed to be fixed and could be easily improved with a rule from another edition. |
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Jul 27 2012, 11:07 PM
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#14
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,642 Joined: 22-April 12 From: somewhere far beyond sanity Member No.: 51,886 |
Fair enough (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
While SR4 is generally said to be more 'accessible' , I wish you and your group a lot of fun (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) |
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Jul 27 2012, 11:22 PM
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#15
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Free Spirit Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,944 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Bloomington, IN UCAS Member No.: 1,920 |
I agree with Kagetenshi's suggestions and list of core books.
The Fanpro version is just a newer reprint, so go for it if it costs that much less. I totally agree with your reasons for wanting to go SR3. Harlequin is actually a SR1 format and was a series of runs, many out of town and out of country. They were related, but not in any kind of must complete Run A to go on to Run B type of way. Another SR1 favorite og mine is Dreamchipper and usually one of the first modules I'd run a new group through. Actually, SR3 saw the introduction to "adventures" and "adventure books" that weren't like previous adventures. They just gave a general outline of the situation and a few details and left it up to the GM. Which if your a new GM was way less than what you may have gotten accustomed to. Adventures: (these are listed chronologically, as best as determined by in game references, and I was checking to see when the edition changed and Ivy and Chrome uses SR1 damage codes, while Dark Angel uses SR2. Note that the publishers numbers do not match this order.) Silver Angel - short and straightforward, similar to a single run from Harlequin. Mercurial - I like it, but the first time I ran it, I had trouble. Dreamchipper - A favorite. 3 objectives, I thought the way the info was presented was a bit here and there, but after running it a few times, you know what you need to find to keep things rolling along. Harlequin - see above DNA/DOA - good 1st run, similar to a dungeon crawl Queen Euphoria - classic must run, but opposition could be overwhelming Bottled Demon - Another favorite, could be good for a new group Universal Brotherhood - usually hard to find and expensive, but another classic that becomes part of the plot Ivy and Chrome - not one I've run repeatedly, but lots of legwork iIrc Dark Angel - haven't run a lot, don't recall it at moment NAN I & II - I like both the adventures in these "place" books. Both are road trips against magical bbg. Dragon Hunt - work for a dragon Imago - go to Britain, iirc, and didn't care for the adventure that much what the heck, if you see an adventure that looks good ask about it I do like the Professional Rating" feature from SR2. Makes GMing a bit simpler and can scale rating to match group level. |
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Jul 28 2012, 12:08 AM
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#16
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 993 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 313 |
a standard introduction that no one has mentioned yet is Food fight, found in first run I think.
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Jul 28 2012, 06:08 PM
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#17
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Neophyte Runner Group: Validating Posts: 2,283 Joined: 12-October 07 Member No.: 13,662 |
Just fair warning. I'd avoid mixing editions at all if you're new. SR2 and 3 were very complicated systems. With a mixture of modifiers which would modify the target number (TN), threshold (how many rolls you needed beating the TN), a damage system which was very inflexible. And there were some big changes going from 2->3.
The big thing about SR4 is it got rid of variable TN's and the inflexible staged damage system. Instead everything hinges upon how many dice you roll... all modifiers modify the number of dice rolled and the TN is always 5. (a 5 or 6 is a success). If you like the old setting... I suspect you should take a look at the SR 2050 book that should be hitting store shelves soon (they just released the PDF). You should be able to play with only that book and the SR4a core rules. Not trying to sell you on it, just letting you know it's new and out there. Much like you I dislike all the fluffy and overly PC bits that have taken over what used to be a much grittier gameworld |
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Jul 29 2012, 12:32 PM
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#18
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Target Group: Members Posts: 24 Joined: 26-July 12 Member No.: 53,087 |
I made it out to one of the game stores in the area, and they had a handful of older SR books cheap,and I was wondering if any of them were any good. Unfortunately, I was in a hurry, and didn't have too much time to look through them, but I took note of a few that looked interesting. They did have the Bottled Demon adventure, which tisoz recommended. For sourcebooks, they had the Street Samurai Catalog (revised printing), Awakenings, Fields of Fire, and Cybertechnology. From what I could tell, these were all SR2 books. Would any of these be useful?
Thanks again for all the advice! |
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Jul 29 2012, 12:44 PM
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#19
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,642 Joined: 22-April 12 From: somewhere far beyond sanity Member No.: 51,886 |
In my opinion: not really. While they do have interesting fluff, if you want to play SR3 ruleset, you should stick to the SR3 core rulebooks, which would be Magic in the Shadows, Man and Machine, Matrix, Rigger 3 and Cannon Companion (for optional rules for character creation, I also highly recommend the companion)
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Jul 29 2012, 08:14 PM
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#20
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 917 Joined: 5-September 03 From: Melbourne, Victoria, Australia Member No.: 5,585 |
Welcome to SR3! We know your stay will be enjoyable, or at least it will be once we've hardwired this personafix to your headware...
Something no one's yet touched on - NSRCG. (Basically Stahlseele has a link to it on their sig, thank the gods, I can never find it without reverting to a wayback machine search) Although it has it's quirks (Save often!), it's a very handy character generator that comes with it's own diceroller (SO handy for a GM) and you can set what books/suppliments/insanity that your players are allowed to have - play around with it, look at how the "sample" (read: SR3 sample characters) are put together and you'll quickly find that you can tweak and twist and make things pretty. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) Note that the Priority Build and the "Point Build" systems are canon and supported, as are a few other build systems (which I've honestly never used) - once you've chosen the build, you can then just follow the tabs until you're finished (and fill in the 20 questions) and then print to html or whatever. Books - they've been covered here quite well. The ones in your local store are, well, more collector's pieces than relevant game books (Although they have awesome fluff and are well-loved by myself and our players, you're working to a budget and they're luxuries) sorry to say. Apart from that - don't be afraid to ask questions, start topics and discuss things with dinosaurs like myself. (Not gone to 4th, thank you.) Also, don't be too afraid of digging through the 1000+ pages of SR archives here - there's awesome stuff in that trove, from run ideas, game-breaking characters (and how to avoid them or the players who want them) and all the other weirdness that has gone on before. Do have a lovely day, -Tir (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) |
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Jul 29 2012, 09:25 PM
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#21
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The ShadowComedian Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 14,538 Joined: 3-October 07 From: Hamburg, AGS Member No.: 13,525 |
Yes,i have a link in my Signature.
Not sure wether or not it works right now. Several people told me it does not anymore as of late <.< That's why i uploaded the NSRCG3 to here: http://www.share-online.biz/dl/L4MLWM7MHY |
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Jul 29 2012, 09:47 PM
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#22
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Free Spirit Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,944 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Bloomington, IN UCAS Member No.: 1,920 |
I did a double take on the Bottled Demon as recommended, lol. I enjoyed it. I thought it was challenging, but not overwhelming. There was one part I didn't care for.
[ Spoiler ] On the books at the bookstore, About the only one I'd recommend is Fields of Fire. I know it was the SR2 book that had a complete equipment list, but I think I recall it having some good advice and merc tips. The others are obsolete. Street Samurai Catalogue has excellent fluff about the weapons and a Sammy of every metatype. Awakenings has some NPCs in the back that are on the high end. |
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Jul 29 2012, 09:50 PM
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#23
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,537 Joined: 27-August 06 From: Albuquerque NM Member No.: 9,234 |
A facepainted psycho-immortal-elf has a feud with another immortal elf (less pycho, but what does that mean, when you're immortal?). Runners are tools of face-painted psycho and it can be run with several different (and unrelated) adventures inbetween. To quote Ancient History: "Now, Harlequin and Harlequin's Back are horrible railroads as far as adventures go, but it's important to remember that the majority of players appear to just jump onboard and yell "Choo-choo!" Those books sold. That's while Loren Coleman wanted the Artifacts series to be or lead into Harlequin 3: Bigger Ears, Smaller Cornholes. The thing about IEs is that they are old and powerful and unknown. The thing that makes IEs effective as a plot device is that they predate the current paradigm - and yeah, especially in the early days of SR there were overtones of Tolkein-esque elves. What pisses you and everyone else off is the fact that Nigel D. Findley (rightly) stated "if you give it stats, players will kill it." That wasn't supposed to make all the IEs complete untouchable badasses, it was just intended to keep the PCs from putting two in the back of Harlequin's head and completely hosing the adventure. People took that idea and ran with it declaring that every IE is a marty stu/mary sue unkillable bastard, when (as you show in your experience of Harlequin) that's not necessary or even intended." |
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Jul 29 2012, 10:13 PM
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#24
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,642 Joined: 22-April 12 From: somewhere far beyond sanity Member No.: 51,886 |
Uh. I think, you misunderstand (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
Just stating facts there *g* I am in no way pissed off and in fact do love the first campaign. Very hard. So hard that its cover has been repaired twice now (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) The second wasn't to my liking because of the 'we save the world' tone. This is not something I do or want in my games. Edit: The 'facts' being, that immortals are always kind of disconnected from the rest of human (or human-like) persons. => psycho ^^ |
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Jul 29 2012, 10:50 PM
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#25
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,182 Joined: 5-December 07 From: Lower UCAS, along the border Member No.: 14,507 |
If you're looking for free adventures, Season 1 of Missions (which you can download right here) was for 3rd edition. I've been running through them, and plan to convert a few up to 4e (yes, shun me) for my group.
The SR3 book will also have conversion guidelines in the back to convert stuff from SR2 to SR3. In my personal opinion, both editions are pretty equal when it comes to good and bad; I would like to have a full run of 2e and 3e books at some point. |
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