Mind Over Matter (Adept) nearly useless? Options

[wilcoxon]

At first glance, it looked like Mind Over Matter was possibly over-powered for 1.5 magic. On second reading and more thought, it seems like it should be more like a 0.5 magic cost.

Cha -> Str accomplishes almost nothing since melee/thrown/bow damage is not a Test
Wil -> Bod accomplishes a little as it aids in damage resistance tests (being a Body Test - or is it?) but does not change your physical condition monitor
Log -> Agi seems to accomplish the most as I can't think of anyplace Agility is used that isn't a Test
Int -> Rea accomplishes a little as dodging is a Reaction Test (but Initiative is not)

Am I missing (and/or incorrect) on the above?

It seems like Mind Over Matter needs some serious changes (making it much cheaper, making price based on the utility of the specific conversion, or making the stat conversion apply all the time (rather than to just Tests - and possibly raise the cost a little)).

Thoughts?

[All4BigGuns]

At first glance, it looked like Mind Over Matter was possibly over-powered for 1.5 magic. On second reading and more thought, it seems like it should be more like a 0.5 magic cost.

Cha -> Str accomplishes almost nothing since melee/thrown/bow damage is not a Test
Wil -> Bod accomplishes a little as it aids in damage resistance tests (being a Body Test - or is it?) but does not change your physical condition monitor
Log -> Agi seems to accomplish the most as I can't think of anyplace Agility is used that isn't a Test
Int -> Rea accomplishes a little as dodging is a Reaction Test (but Initiative is not)

Am I missing (and/or incorrect) on the above?

It seems like Mind Over Matter needs some serious changes (making it much cheaper, making price based on the utility of the specific conversion, or making the stat conversion apply all the time (rather than to just Tests - and possibly raise the cost a little)).

Thoughts?

The applying only to Tests seems to me to be another one of those "oh snap" clauses I've heard talked about that are in some of the other Adept powers (additions that make a power of limited if any use).

[StealthSigma]

At first glance, it looked like Mind Over Matter was possibly over-powered for 1.5 magic. On second reading and more thought, it seems like it should be more like a 0.5 magic cost.

Cha -> Str accomplishes almost nothing since melee/thrown/bow damage is not a Test
Wil -> Bod accomplishes a little as it aids in damage resistance tests (being a Body Test - or is it?) but does not change your physical condition monitor
Log -> Agi seems to accomplish the most as I can't think of anyplace Agility is used that isn't a Test
Int -> Rea accomplishes a little as dodging is a Reaction Test (but Initiative is not)

Am I missing (and/or incorrect) on the above?

It seems like Mind Over Matter needs some serious changes (making it much cheaper, making price based on the utility of the specific conversion, or making the stat conversion apply all the time (rather than to just Tests - and possibly raise the cost a little)).

Thoughts?

If you roll dice for it, it's a test. So MoM does apply to damage resistance checks and initiative (the book even calls it an Initiative Test).

All you lose out on is Str->Weapon Ranges, Str->Damage and Bod->Physical Track.

1.5 is an appropriate cost for it. You gain a huge benefit from having it by able to much more easily hyper focus on a stat and free up points to use elsewhere.

[Aerospider]

If you roll dice for it, it's a test. So MoM does apply to damage resistance checks and initiative (the book even calls it an Initiative Test).

All you lose out on is Str->Weapon Ranges, Str->Damage and Bod->Physical Track.

1.5 is an appropriate cost for it. You gain a huge benefit from having it by able to much more easily hyper focus on a stat and free up points to use elsewhere.

I think the theory to which wilcoxon is referring is that an Initiative Test is not a Reaction Test. I.e. Initiative is calculated from Reaction and Intuition but this total is now a new stat and no longer categorised as Reaction or Intuition dice. I'm not saying that's right, but the notion is out there.

Oh, and it's maximum jumping distance that uses Agility outside of tests.

[Shortstraw]

I've used all but the willpower variant. Logician with 13 logic, a face/ disguise infiltrator that liked to garrote people, and a "bard".

[Yerameyahu]

Yes, Logic is the clear winner here. Honestly, it seems like a bad power: it's either too weak or too strong.

[Shortstraw]

logic is always good the others are for niche/gimmicks.

[_Pax._]

Wil -> Bod accomplishes a little as it aids in damage resistance tests (being a Body Test - or is it?) but does not change your physical condition monitor

Honestly, just for pure numbers? My g/f's Pixie Mystic Adept would benefit HUGELY from this ... her Will (7) is 5 points higher than her Body (2).

Int -> Rea accomplishes a little as dodging is a Reaction Test (but Initiative is not)

Piloting. Surprise.

[Neraph]

Hrmm... My Nosferatu Black Mage may want to pick this up with his Essence Drain for Willpower, his being a 4 that's been Increased to 12. May help with those Regeneration rolls a little... 12 is better than his 4 Body anyways.

[StealthSigma]

Yes, Logic is the clear winner here. Honestly, it seems like a bad power: it's either too weak or too strong.

I'm going to look at this assuming you have starting attributes in the linked skills that are approximately equal. Certain metatypes may make less sense for certain conversions (Troll using Willpower->Body) and others may make a remarkable amount of sense (Pixies using Willpower->Body).

Log -> Agi appears potent because of the number of agility skills (18). However, once you break agility into attack skills (12) and non-attack skills (6) the picture is significantly different. Most characters aren't going to take all 12 attack skills and for a character based on logic skills I would guess for mostly of them to have 3 of them represented at most. And of those non-attack skills, Gymnastics is somewhat gimped by using MOM because your distances are still limited by Agility. Further weakening the strength of this conversion is the ease with which you can hit the augmented max for agility (+5) vs logic (+3).

I would say that Int->Rea provides the best benefit except for the augmentation issue where, depending on who you ask, it's +7/+10 to Reaction and +0 to Intuition. However, there are some potential benefits depending on the functionality of it with regard to the Qualia genetech. Qualia provides a +1 to all intuition linked skill checks. So if the Reaction based skills now count as intuition linked checks, you get an extra +1 die. Granted this won't cover the loss of the much easier to obtain reaction score, it does help to offset it.

Charisma -> Strength is relatively pointless. It has the same augmentation values of Agility and Logic (+5 Strength, +3 Charisma). Damage is not affected by it, and there's a small number of strength based skills. I think it could be useful for some very narrow character concepts, most of which are probably a Face adept.

All of that aside, I believe that Willpower->Body is the best overall. The augmentation difference between the two is +1 body vs +0 willpower. The physical damage track may be huge, but we're talking about 1 or 2 boxes on the track (it can be 3 boxes if you have a suprathyroid). On the plus side, if the combat monkeys that would normally invest heavily in body invested heavily in willpower instead, they're much more able to resist damage overall, including that dreaded stunball. The downside, of course, is that the two body skills are probably unlikely to come into play.

[Mäx]

Log -> Agi appears potent because of the number of agility skills (18). However, once you break agility into attack skills (12) and non-attack skills (6) the picture is significantly different. Most characters aren't going to take all 12 attack skills and for a character based on logic skills I would guess for mostly of them to have 3 of them represented at most. And of those non-attack skills, Gymnastics is somewhat gimped by using MOM because your distances are still limited by Agility. Further weakening the strength of this conversion is the ease with which you can hit the augmented max for agility (+5) vs logic (+3).

The major edge on the attack skill front is that MoM allows you to default on those with Log-1, so you dont really need to get any of those skills at all(while still being able to roll more dice with every weapon out there then most other non-combat characters)

All of that aside, I believe that Willpower->Body is the best overall. The augmentation difference between the two is +1 body vs +0 willpower. The physical damage track may be huge, but we're talking about 1 or 2 boxes on the track (it can be 3 boxes if you have a suprathyroid). On the plus side, if the combat monkeys that would normally invest heavily in body invested heavily in willpower instead, they're much more able to resist damage overall, including that dreaded stunball. The downside, of course, is that the two body skills are probably unlikely to come into play.

The huge problem with this is that the ammount of armor you can wear is based on straight up body, meaning no matter how high your willpower is if you only have 1 body you suck at resisting damage.

[Aerospider]

However, there are some potential benefits depending on the functionality of it with regard to the Qualia genetech. Qualia provides a +1 to all intuition linked skill checks. So if the Reaction based skills now count as intuition linked checks, you get an extra +1 die. Granted this won't cover the loss of the much easier to obtain reaction score, it does help to offset it.

I don't know the exact wording of the power, but surely not?

[StealthSigma]

I don't know the exact wording of the power, but surely not?

The exact wording is open to interpretation.

"The adept is truly a master of mind over matter and may use one Mental attribute in place of one Physical attribute for any tests."

The problem is that linked attribute for a skill is not a permanent feature. It just so happens that Agility is the most common linked attribute for Automatics though there are cases in the rule books where Intuition acts as the linked attribute (blind fire) which qualifies a blind fire attack to get the +1 bonus from Qualia.

What this means, is that it opens the door as to whether the mental attribute replaces the physical attributes (and consequently becomes the new linked skill) or the value of it is just used. Note that this can also work in the inverse with other augmentations such as enhanced articulation. Since that only grants a bonus to dice pools for physical skills linked to physical attributes, MOM would eliminate that bonus should the mental attribute replace the physical one.

[Krishach]

Our group changed linked skills on an appropriate basis quite frequently.


However, on the usefulness of the power, we seem to agree that it is never as good as having the original stat in the first place. Stats just cost a whole lot more.

The question I'd submit, then, "Is this power more useful than 1.5 points in other adept powers, and will it cost me less karma/money than raising the stat elsewhere that I would not be raising anyway." While I agree that Logic and IMO Intuition are the clear pack leaders, it would depend on the linked attribute, and how you play your character.

Personally, assuming the mental stats were similar, such as logic 5, charisma 4, intuition 4, will 5, I would angle for the one you are less likely to raise directly with karma or powers, but will still use enough to make investing 1.5 points worth it.

I have a Mystic Adept with high (same number) CHA, INT, and WIL (not logic though, unfortunately), but I will likely be trying to make a permanent 4 IP, which adds to reaction. I use Agility relatively little, and strength almost not at all. For this character, Body becomes the one I'd pick, since I could use the damage resistance more than Mage Armor (better dice bonus), and that doesn't account for the other resistance/skill tests it would work with. Logic is too low to be worth it for me, and Reaction I will up with other things.

Also consider that your augmented mental attribute, if upped with spells like Improve Attribute, can also be a 2-for-1. Mystic adepts celebrate, and Adepts: go bribe the party mage.


IMO, Mind over Matter is a niche power for Mystic Adpets and specialized adepts who wind up with mental stats in spades, but could use the physical. The power is an alternative to sacrificing Essence and Magic for bioware instead, or spending massive amounts of karma on a tertiary quality.


EDIT: Augmented max is hard to hit for mental stats. I am aware of Logic adding bioware, but I know of nothing that ups Will or Charisma directly, be it powers or bioware. Intuition is just a niche power from the Artists Way. Are there any I am missing?

Is there any direct line in a book that says you can't have more than one Way of the Adept?

[Udoshi]

EDIT: Augmented max is hard to hit for mental stats. I am aware of Logic adding bioware, but I know of nothing that ups Will or Charisma directly, be it powers or bioware. Intuition is just a niche power from the Artists Way. Are there any I am missing?

Is there any direct line in a book that says you can't have more than one Way of the Adept?

1: Pain Editors ups Will for... Intuition, i think?. Dareadrenaline also adds to willpower tests. Usually the best way to raise mental stats is by raising the natural maximum. Either metatype - some critters have higher mental stats - or the usual tricks.
2: No. Multiple ways are NOT disallowed. I brought it up in Critias's way of the adept thread, and to my knowledge he hasn't put it in his unofficial errata file. Though I think he did chime in that it was very silly.

[Krishach]

Why would it be silly? Whether ways are philosophies or practices, there is nothing inherently contradictory.

I have a friend who has black belts (or equivalent) in Sambo, Jujitsu, Krav Maga, and is now learning Wing Chun. The last two are completely different approaches (one flows and reacts, and the other is more forcefull and acts, though this is gross stereotyping on my part). He uses both in sparring matches, using whatever seems appropriate from second to second.

Anyway, I am pretty sure that adding for Willpower Tests wouldn't work as a cross-over for Mind Over Matter. It would have to increase the augmented stat directly. I don't believe either of those do increase Will; they just add to tests, but I don't have the book in front of me.

EDIT: Pain Editor wording says it adds to Will while active: I would think that would qualify for the cross over from Mind Over Matter.

[MADness]

2: No. Multiple ways are NOT disallowed. I brought it up in Critias's way of the adept thread, and to my knowledge he hasn't put it in his unofficial errata file. Though I think he did chime in that it was very silly.

Is that the guy who wrote Way of the Adept? Cause his unoffical errata for the book encourages either it, or his Walking the Ways pq.

EDIT:
So I just double checked, and yes it is the same guy. I got it mostly right. He heavily encourages WtW, but if the GM won't allow it, double dip.

[Udoshi]

Why would it be silly? Whether ways are philosophies or practices, there is nothing inherently contradictory.

As far as I got the gist, because it was Not Intended and kind of OP if you take multiple ways with overlapping power discounts.

yet kind of odd considering Walking the Ways.
I was kind of of the mind that WtW should have only been 5 points, and expanded your options, not gave you twice as many.

As is, its pretty abusable, though.
Way of the Warrior and Magician's Way borrowing Way of the Artisan is currently my favorite power combo. I had a mad inventor following Tesla(from AH's unrealeased high magic sourcebook) using that combination, and it was pretty fun.

[Makki]

you really want to be a Mystic Adept. You can cast Increase Attribute, which now boosts two at once.
If you have an Intuition tradition you can actually profit very well from your new Reaction score. The Increase Reflexes adds directly to initiative score and doesn't give Reaction anyways.
INT 9, natural REA 1 and 4 hits on the spell gives you a decent INI 14.

[Irion]

The huge problem with this is that the ammount of armor you can wear is based on straight up body, meaning no matter how high your willpower is if you only have 1 body you suck at resisting damage.

Well, there are some exceptions... Mind over matter is anyway mostly a good idea for mystic adepts. Those might use shapechange (Changing in a little critter and still getting 5 to 10 dice to resist damage is not that bad)
In general you can roll more dice than your augmented max would actually allow for. I think thats one of the major things about that ability.
We had the example of the willpowermaxed pixie.
Take a mystical adept pixie with a body of 2, get exeptional attribute Willpower. (Or talking about crome critters genetic optimisation. I guess surge would also be possible, but I am not sure about that) To hit the augmented max, you probably use a sustaining foci or something along those lines. Now you get around 10 to 12 dice to resist physical damage, instead of 2. (Yes, your armor will still be low, but those dice will also help with resisting direct combat spells.

So yes, that is quite a need trick to pull off.

[UmaroVI]

Logic->Agility is good. The reasons are that (a) Logic is a relatively easy stat to boost and (b) unlike the others, if you have MoM Logic, you can have 1 agility and not care. Check the first link in my sig and the Transhuman Mystic for an example of a MoM Logic build. I should point out that it is good, but I don't think it's "overpowered." It eats a good amount of PP and it is worth the price; not every adept wants it but it does let you make an interesting sort of character. One of my friends runs a Mind Over Matter mystic adept in our Missions campaign and he's effective, but not gamebreaking. Really, MoM Logic is one of the best balanced adept powers in 4th edition and the single best idea in BOGOTA! More adept powers should do interesting character-defining but not horribly broken things like that.

Charisma->Strength is useless crap.

Willpower->Body might as well be called Mind Over Pixie; nobody else should touch it with a 10-foot pole, but pixie's have such a low Body maximum that it might actually be worth it. The main reason is, as pointed out, that Body still affects your worn armor and thus every point of body is worth 3 points of damage resistance. Anyone who isn't a pixie is much better off with two levels of IPA Body instead.

Intuition->Reaction is actually terrible. The reason is that it doesn't affect your initiative score which is a significant chunk of why you wanted Reaction in the first place, and also that Intuition isn't very easy to increase.

Also: no, MoM does not change linked attributes. Linked attribute is a property of the skill and you tell which is linked to which by checking SR4A 120's table. For example, Hacking is a Logic-linked skill, which is why Encephalon (explicitly stated) and other Log-linked skill enhancers work with it, even though you practically never roll Hacking+Logic. MoM lets you substitute for tests - it doesn't change a property of the skill.

[StealthSigma]

Also: no, MoM does not change linked attributes. Linked attribute is a property of the skill and you tell which is linked to which by checking SR4A 120's table. For example, Hacking is a Logic-linked skill, which is why Encephalon (explicitly stated) and other Log-linked skill enhancers work with it, even though you practically never roll Hacking+Logic. MoM lets you substitute for tests - it doesn't change a property of the skill.

The listed linked attributes are just the most common linked attribute. The GM may, for whatever reason he may want, call for a test with a different linked attribute than is listed for the skill if he deems it more appropriate. If the GM wanted to, he may declare that a particular hacking action is intuition based and deny the benefit from Encephalon. Likewise, there is at least one example in the book where the linked attribute is switched from Agility to Intuition (Blind Fire).

When a gamemaster calls for a test, he will provide the player with a description of the task at hand and which skill (and linked attribute) is most appropriate for it.

The wording of MOM says that the mental attribute is used in place of the physical attribute. "In place of" is highly suggestive that the physical attribute (and consequently all references to it) are being replaced with the mental attribute rather than the mental attribute simply being substituted for the physical attribute (which is what you're describing). Call it poor authoring or writing, but that is what the wording states.

[UmaroVI]

So you think Hacking+Exploit is an exploit-linked test, and Encephalon doesn't apply?

[StealthSigma]

So you think Hacking+Exploit is an exploit-linked test, and Encephalon doesn't apply?

It's a Hacking + Logic test which has special rules that cause the attribute to go unused.

[Irion]

Logic->Agility is good. The reasons are that (a) Logic is a relatively easy stat to boost and (b) unlike the others, if you have MoM Logic, you can have 1 agility and not care. Check the first link in my sig and the Transhuman Mystic for an example of a MoM Logic build. I should point out that it is good, but I don't think it's "overpowered." It eats a good amount of PP and it is worth the price; not every adept wants it but it does let you make an interesting sort of character. One of my friends runs a Mind Over Matter mystic adept in our Missions campaign and he's effective, but not gamebreaking. Really, MoM Logic is one of the best balanced adept powers in 4th edition and the single best idea in BOGOTA! More adept powers should do interesting character-defining but not horribly broken things like that.

Charisma->Strength is useless crap.

Willpower->Body might as well be called Mind Over Pixie; nobody else should touch it with a 10-foot pole, but pixie's have such a low Body maximum that it might actually be worth it. The main reason is, as pointed out, that Body still affects your worn armor and thus every point of body is worth 3 points of damage resistance. Anyone who isn't a pixie is much better off with two levels of IPA Body instead.

Intuition->Reaction is actually terrible. The reason is that it doesn't affect your initiative score which is a significant chunk of why you wanted Reaction in the first place, and also that Intuition isn't very easy to increase.

Also: no, MoM does not change linked attributes. Linked attribute is a property of the skill and you tell which is linked to which by checking SR4A 120's table. For example, Hacking is a Logic-linked skill, which is why Encephalon (explicitly stated) and other Log-linked skill enhancers work with it, even though you practically never roll Hacking+Logic. MoM lets you substitute for tests - it doesn't change a property of the skill.

True for pure adepts. But most pure adepts do not have a real use for logic either....
The guys who would like that power a mystic adepts. If logic is your drain stat (which you will probably increase with a spell) it gives you a lot for your trouble. Same with intuition. Even if it does not count for Initiative. What the heck? You will probably only have reaction 2, but in line with intuition 9 or even 10 to 12, it is really nice. And 12 dice to doge are really a nice thing to have.

Willpower to Body would not count for armor, true. So you would still need at least 3-4 points of body, true. But it is still a differance, if you throw 12 dice to resist damage or 17 dice.
It gets even better for resisting spells. (Here you should also consider, that toxins and deseases also are resisted with body...)

So yes, for the pure adept mind of matter does kind of suck. (Logic might be the exception for the hacking adept...)
For mystic adepts it is a different pair question...