Melee Combat without the Str Options

[Umidori]

That, and 'high damage with a sword' was a requirement.

As people have pointed out, however, that doesn't mesh well with lack of strength and no Arsenal goodies. *shrug* As it was an unmentioned option, even though an imperfect one, I felt it worth sharing. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

~Umi

[All4BigGuns]

For the most part, it seems to me that he's more trying to come up with some way to get his player more damage with his sword without going with ork, troll or some other similarly high strength metavariant. I know how the thread title sounds, but this is the impression I get from the actual original post.

[Yerameyahu]

I already did say tasers, Umidori. I'm just teasing, anyway: we all know the stated requirements are impossible.

[Halinn]

Perhaps with Mind over Matter and a permissive GM?

[Makki]

I think

Agi 8 + Attribute Boost (Agi) ~ 2
Str 3 + Attribute Boost (Strength) ~ 2
Skill 6 + Improved Abiltity 3
Specialization 2
Weapon Focus 2-4
Personalized Grip 1
Called Shot -4 +4DV
successfull Infiltration role => no defense

should be one hit kills.

[Udoshi]

Warning! Non Serious Advice Follows: Stat This At Your Own Risk.
I'd suggest playing a cyborg.

After reviewing the missions FAQ, I've discovered that Bull never actually updated it with the loophole I sent him.

Specifically, only augmentation's bleeding edge section is disallowed(except for like one quality), its not a blanket ban on cyborgs at all.
Which is dumb, because everything you actually need is in arsenal.

Maybe bring it as a joke character.

[Audious]

Don't forget called shots for extra damage. It's something thematically appropriate AND pretty effective (-4 dice for +4 damage levels is pretty danged good).

Called Shot Adept with Heightened Concentration? Ignore a penalty to a task up to your Magic rating for a complex action.

[Midas]

As Stahlseele mentioned, a Weapon Focus could be a good way to increase DP and therefore net hits, which should help stage up the DV and thereby mitigate the lower STR. You could go all out for Restricted Gear to get a better focus if you have the BP (and +ve Qualities) to spare. Add a blades-based martial arts and some manouvres and you should be good to go.

For an elf, Exceptional Attribute or Metagenic Improvement to increase (augmented) max AGI to 8 (12) would be a good fit for both dealing damage via increasing net hits and sneaking with Infiltration. For a point of Magic, a Restricted Gear Muscle Toner 4 is a cheaper way to boost AGI than adept powers, and you could also get some useful cyber to round out the 1 essence point (remember with cyber/bio, the essence impact of the lower of the two is halved, so a 0.7/0.6 [or 0.67/0.66] mix is good for only 1 point of essence).

Don't forget to think about the other skills an infiltrator might need - Hardware skill/Electronics skill group for dealing with maglocks, Climbing or Pilot Aircraft (and a hanglider) for getting to the easier to break into points in a facility, perhaps a hack-in-the-box agent to deal with cameras and drones , and your own drones for scouting. Lockpicking skill and an autopicker can also prove useful. Some degree of face skills and Palming (and hence perhaps the Stealth skill group, for the Weapon Focus) could be useful when going in the front door is the only option.

At 0.25PP, Improved Skill can be a cheap and useful way to boost the character's infiltration skill DP-load, although remember the max is 1 rank/2 ranks of skill.

If you posted the character, I am sure people would be able to suggest specific improvements.

[Xenefungus]

I think the OP should really ditch 4.) or 5.), then we can talk. Letting go of the swords makes more sense, imho.

[Aerospider]

Does the "no extra Arsenal rules" include garottes? Monofilament is a straight 8P.

Though as it's a variant of subdual a low Strength score might be an issue - don't remember how it goes exactly.

[CrystalBlue]

Creating it last night, I got about the same results as most of you. I really am not going to relax the rules on 4 and 5 because, again, there's no reason I have to. Adepts can make good assassin and melee characters and swords are cool. I shouldn't have to use pistols or SMG's to solve my problems.

What I ended up doing was loosening the restriction on the strength being so low. Took a monofilament sword, modded it out, got a Agi of 7 and Str of 4, and worked the dice pool up to 16 with swords. With weapon focus 2 and personalized grip, that gets to 19 DP, with an average of 5 hits per roll. Throwing edge in there and calling the shot should be enough to drop most anything that moves. Took Adept powers Improved Reflexes 2, Improved Ability (Blades), Mystic Armor, and Cloak. I might be able to drop the Mystic armor and cloak, though, since those can both be handled by gear a lot better.

The restrictions on no martial arts (as well as a few other things) comes from us playing Missions. SR Missions doesn't allow for the extra rules in Arsenal except for Str to Recoil Comp, so I can't take any martial arts to improve DV or get maneuvers. What we will be doing is getting him initiated a few times and get him Centering and maybe Attunement. I'm still thinking what we should do there.

[NiL_FisK_Urd]

Atunement does not work with Weapon Foci ^^

[Xenefungus]

Str 4, seriously? -.-

Drop that to 3 or raise it to 5 already.

Plus, you really want to Surge for Agi 8(12) and then get that Muscle Toner 4 sooner or later (sooner with Restricted Gear).

Take Improved Reflexes 3 + Improved Ability (Blades). Having 4 IP is easiest as an Adept, and you can make good use out of it full dodging until you are the only one with actions left, so go for it. As it stands, just forgetting about Adept and going for WR2 + Skill recorder would be FAR more efficient.

[CrystalBlue]

To make the character effective, I have to spread the points out a bit more then trying to centralize Agi or Str. I am surged and have my agility around 7 right now. Dropping or raising the strength won't actually do me anything since damage is Str/2, rounded down. Raising it won't help, and lowering it will just lower my damage.

I am considering the cybered or bioed route, but I'm hesitant. I like magic so much more.

[bannockburn]

Lowering it to 3 will still give you 2 base damage, same as with 4.

[ZeroPoint]

To clarify what bannockburn is trying to say, Melee damage is calculated by rounding up. So 3/2 = 1.5 rounded up to 2. Therefore, if your strapped for points, drop it to 3 because it won't change where he's at. If you have a few more points, increase to 5 will get you another point of damage since 5/2 = 2.5 rounded to 3

[Umidori]

'Ware has a lot more options with better efficiencies and returns on BP, though.

Instead of pumping your actual Agility, get a single cyberarm customized to 7 Agility (since you're an elf). Any one-handed weapon gripped by that arm then uses the full 7 agility, even if the rest of your body is only 3 or whatever. You can also pump the Strength to 5 or 6 for an extra point of damage. You also get a free point on your Condition Monitor, and enjoy the benefits of sensors or armor or whatever else you want to cram into the cyberarm via capacity.

The drawback there is that you have to average the arm's stats with your meatbody ones for anything that involves more than one hand. For agility that's not so bad, biggest things that affects are two-handed weapons and your Gynmastics, and not much else. Strength is a similar ballgame, you won't do as well on your Lift/Carry, Athletics, or any Body + Strength resistance tests, but overall you're not losing much.

In exchange, you save a ton of build points. Taking Agility 3 with the customized arm over Agility 7 saves a whopping 55 BP. The tradeoff is the loss of a point of essence (mitigated by cramming fun extras into the arm via capacity), and the costs for the 'ware itself.

I know that playing an Adept without 'ware is attractive conceptually, but the costs are just completely out of whack for adepts. Basically unless you're using the newer books which give adepts more flexibility and powers, you're gonna be paying too much in terms of BP to be able to compete with 'ware and spells.

~Umi

[bannockburn]

Yeah, sorry, I was a bit short for time. Something in the kitchen tried to burn up (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)
Thanks for clarifying, ZeroPoint

[Tanegar]

4.) The character wants to be good with sword damage, since there's no reason he shouldn't be able to slice people up for as much damage as someone shooting at them does

Actually, there's an excellent reason: shooting is a Simple Action, while melee is a Complex Action. Unless he's doing unbelievable damage with every strike (demonstrably impossible given the stated restrictions), shooting is always the better option.

[Irion]

Does throwing the sword really works? I thought the DV is also based on strength. (Alright, with the adept power you get some Bam for the buck...)

How about punch him with the other hand, usingcritical strike?

I know that playing an Adept without 'ware is attractive conceptually, but the costs are just completely out of whack for adepts. Basically unless you're using the newer books which give adepts more flexibility and powers, you're gonna be paying too much in terms of BP to be able to compete with 'ware and spells , unless using some houserules.

Fixed that...
Because honestly: RAW the adept is taken with at least two points of ware... It is in the end 20 BP for the possibility to increase agility by 4, reduce damage taken by one and increase your reaction or something else....

[Yerameyahu]

Yeah, Irion, I was assuming the damage would mostly come from the various throwing powers. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) It's a joke anyway though, because obviously 'throwing' a sword at a guy from 0m is not what they asked for.

[Umidori]

That's a rather cynical view of things, Irion, although perhaps not entirely unwarranted... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/frown.gif)

~Umi

[CrystalBlue]

So what I'm hearing here is that, not only are adepts not that powerful...melee combat is next to worthless when compared to anything else? That doesn't sound right to me. I know I've seen melee character make ranged characters look stupid. So there's no reason I shouldn't be able to be effective like I want to be. And I don't think that making something a pure adept is all that hard. I make pure mages all the time, and they run circles around augmented characters.

[bannockburn]

The problem with adepts is, that they pay out of their nose for everything that makes them more powerful, if you go the pure magic route. Nothing wrong with that, but you need to raise that MAG attribute, and to do that, you need to initiate. When you play with the optional rule of power point instead of meta magic during initiation, it gets a bit better, but it's still rather lackluster, if you compare e.g. Improved Physical Attribute (over unaugmented max) with let's say muscle toner (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
Additionally, you need to first get into the close quarter combat, which can be difficult to accomplish, as people tend to just shoot their shotguns at the frothing maniac running at them (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)
Another thing is, you can get off two shots with an HM pistol (let's say a manhunter, for simplicity), BOTH doing 6P at least, if you hit with 1 net hit, with -1 AP. To get this kind of damage in melee, you need to have a base strength of 10 (if not augmented, counting 1 net hit) AND penetrating strike for at least .25 power points. And then you have only attacked once, because close combat is a complex action.

Still, nothing wrong with that. I don't play for effectiveness, I play for the roleplaying. My own melee adept is proficient in unarmed combat as well as with his weapon focus (a sword), rolling 16 dice base (unarmed) and 20 dice with his rating 4 weapon focus. He does have 3 IP, Killing Hands, Penetrating Strike 3, and Critical Strike 4, with martial arts +1DV to unarmed, he does 9 Base DV with one net hit (Strength 5). But while running up to the enemy, I usually fire a few shots with a pistol. Either it softens them up, or distracts them enough (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)
So yeah, I get by when I play him.
Big BUT: he has around 250 Karma, and it was a long, hard way to get him there (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[Umidori]

So what I'm hearing here is that, not only are adepts not that powerful...melee combat is next to worthless when compared to anything else? That doesn't sound right to me. I know I've seen melee character make ranged characters look stupid. So there's no reason I shouldn't be able to be effective like I want to be. And I don't think that making something a pure adept is all that hard. I make pure mages all the time, and they run circles around augmented characters.

Adepts aren't that powerful, particularly not with the restrictions you're trying to deal with.

Melee is next to worthless compared to ranged in many situations, particularly without martial arts. I can either shoot you twice from a good ways away, or I can first run up to you under fire and then make a single melee attack. I can use a heavy pistol to deal 5P + 5P (with another +1 on each for the minimum net hit per attack), with armor penetration base and further from ammo, at range, forcing the target to incur an additional level of the "Has Defended Against A Prior Attack" dice penalty, or I can need a Strength of 15 to deal 8 + 3P with a sword, plus the net hit for the same total damage of 12P, with armor penetration applying only once (although against impact, at least). Oh and the pistol is a lot more concealable.

Melee characters can make ranged characters look stupid - by outsmarting and outmaneuvering them. But if a guy with an assault rifle gets the drop on you in an open area without cover, suddenly your melee character starts looking stupid instead.

There isn't a reason you shouldn't be effective like you want to be, but there are reasons why you aren't. The rules simply make adepts pay a lot more for comparable levels of power than 'ware users and mages pay. This is why it's pretty much the unofficial default for any adept focused on combat to blow an essence point on Synaptic Boosters rather than sacrifice the 2.5 power points required for the same bonuses in magical form. And that's the reduced cost! It used to be 3 points! Hell, they even put out the Way of The Adept PDF expressly because they realized that pure adepts simply cannot keep up numerically. They had to give them the option to discount certain powers, because without those bonuses a pure adept is just numerically crippled.

Pure mages do run circles around augmented characters, but they run circles around everyone else as well. It is longstanding popular opinion that mages are the most powerful things in SR, and that they easily can get into very ridiculous places mathematically and rulewise.

~Umi