Question about Tacsofts Options

[Dolanar]

Hello All,
I have an Adept Sniper & have been reading a bit more about Tacsofts & how they can be beneficial to my character type, however being an Adept I am much less inclined to add Cyber to my arsenal of abilities as it weakens me a bit.

After reading through the description of Tacnets & such I find myself a bit confused on what exactly counts as a channel, the example gives some options that don't seem like a Channel sense. So as an Adept looking into Tacnets, what kind of senses should I make sure to have to reach the maximum of 8?

Also, I have a tendency to use smaller drone's as they are much harder to see & flying eyes have some uses, but if I were to use Flying Eyes & wanted to get a +4 alone I'd need to give them an 8 Sensor, is it possible for Flying Eyes to have an 8 sensor, if so, what kind of Sensor's do you recommend on a Micro/Mini drone to reach 8?

Any help is appreciated, I am fairly new to Shadowrun as a whole & am still adjusting to the system so I am always interested in different ideas to look into.

[Mantis]

Every sense and variation on a sense (lowlight, thermo, ultrasound, etc) counts as a channel so long as you are running it through a simrig on your commlink. Very easy to get up to the 8 channels. The hard part is getting a drone to go to eight channels since their sensor suite maxes out at 6 channels. No point in having a rating 4 tacnet unless you have 5 meat buddies along to contribute. A drone maxes out at rating 3. Don't forget you would need 4 of those drones (of what ever type they are) to get a rating 3 tacnet.
Hope this helps.

[Yerameyahu]

You just need a simrig and an assortment of sensors (handheld, velcro'd to your body, goggles, whatever). Like Mantis said, the hard part is getting enough people.

[Dolanar]

Thanks guys, I'll have to scour the books for the different sensor options for my drones I suppose, so its not possible to use Drones for a 4 rating Tacsoft at all? My group runs with an average of 4 people most of the time

[Falconer]

Tacnets are a bit of a mess. You really need to talk to our GM to learn how he runs them.

For example... I take the strictest reading of the chapter. A drone can only provide a maximum number of channels equal to it's rating TO THE TACNET (yes that's the way it's written, not to itself for purposes of the tacnet. drones don't have natural senses nor cybernetic senses only sensor channels). To me that leaves only two grey readings, A rating 6 sensor drone with only say a RADAR, directional mic, & motion sensor could only provide 3 of those 6 possible (it can provide 6... but only has 3 to provide). Or the drone provides a flat Sensor rating worth of channels; sensor rating 6 means 6 channels regardless of the sensor suite. Others have created a warped reading where that limit only applies to giving channels to someone else but then say the drone can provide any number of sensor channels to itself for it's own tacnet subscription (IE: subscribing a drone to provide sensor channels for you towards your 8 requirement).

So the strictest reading of the rules limits tacnets involving drones to rating 3. Offset by how trivial it is to field a large number of drones of sensor rating 6 each (rating 6 cameras are the key). The rules give the example of a drone or someone far away from the action would gain no benefit. Or if all the data coming in is redundant.


Another big problem is read the things the tacnet **MIGHT** give bonuses to. The GM is going to select items off that list as he sees fit. It's not supposed to provide bonuses to everything and anything. I for one would never allow a tacnet to give bonuses to-hit or dodge. Which are the two biggest things people are after (smartlink is already an AR aiming aid). I highly recommend most GM's limit tacnets to only giving perception, surprise, infiltration, & shadowing bonuses. Also allowing information guided attacks from Arsenal through the link.

[All4BigGuns]

Tacnets are a bit of a mess. You really need to talk to our GM to learn how he runs them.

For example... I take the strictest reading of the chapter. A drone can only provide a maximum number of channels equal to it's rating TO THE TACNET (yes that's the way it's written, not to itself for purposes of the tacnet. drones don't have natural senses nor cybernetic senses only sensor channels). To me that leaves only two grey readings, A rating 6 sensor drone with only say a RADAR, directional mic, & motion sensor could only provide 3 of those 6 possible (it can provide 6... but only has 3 to provide). Or the drone provides a flat Sensor rating worth of channels; sensor rating 6 means 6 channels regardless of the sensor suite. Others have created a warped reading where that limit only applies to giving channels to someone else but then say the drone can provide any number of sensor channels to itself for it's own tacnet subscription (IE: subscribing a drone to provide sensor channels for you towards your 8 requirement).

So the strictest reading of the rules limits tacnets involving drones to rating 3. Offset by how trivial it is to field a large number of drones of sensor rating 6 each (rating 6 cameras are the key). The rules give the example of a drone or someone far away from the action would gain no benefit. Or if all the data coming in is redundant.


Another big problem is read the things the tacnet **MIGHT** give bonuses to. The GM is going to select items off that list as he sees fit. It's not supposed to provide bonuses to everything and anything. I for one would never allow a tacnet to give bonuses to-hit or dodge. Which are the two biggest things people are after (smartlink is already an AR aiming aid). I highly recommend most GM's limit tacnets to only giving perception, surprise, infiltration, & shadowing bonuses. Also allowing information guided attacks from Arsenal through the link.

From the way I understand it, rating don't mean crap, and it's the number of different sensors. (Simpler and shorter way of saying it)

[Dolanar]

The limit is their rating as the Unwired book states

"Drones sensor systems also count; each drone can supply a number of sensor channels equal to its Sensor rating."

it doesn't mean they automatically do, but that they can give up to that many channels if they have the proper gear.

[Yerameyahu]

There is disagreement about that. The various sensor 'shorthand' rules are intended to reduce complexity and save time (if desired). As long as they're not being abused (…like cheap tacnets, oops), I feel like it's worth the reduced hassle.

Agreed, Falconer! They are indeed "a bit of a mess". (IMG:style_emoticons/default/frown.gif)

If we're talking 'makes sense', then it should be the number of *relevant* sensors, yeah.

[StealthSigma]

There is disagreement about that. The various sensor 'shorthand' rules are intended to reduce complexity and save time (if desired). As long as they're not being abused (…like cheap tacnets, oops), I feel like it's worth the reduced hassle.

Agreed, Falconer! They are indeed "a bit of a mess". (IMG:style_emoticons/default/frown.gif)

If we're talking 'makes sense', then it should be the number of *relevant* sensors, yeah.

I think the rules on drones and TacNets are rather clear. My problem is that the rules as written do not make sense. Each and every vehicle has a Sensor rating which is just basically the rating of each sensor in the default sensor suite. That is the problem. Sensor is not indicative of the number of sensors (and consequently sensor channels that could be provided) that are on a vehicle but rather the overall quality of the sensor package. This can lead to absurd things where you can have a helicopter with a massive vehicle sensor package and every possible sensor installed (we'll say it has 8 sensors for the sake of argument) and it can have a sensor rating of 1 and consequently only able to provide 1 channel despite being able to potentially provide 8 channels. That helicopter should count be able to count as a member of a Rating IV TacNet let along be able to participate, yet having a sensor value of 1 prevents it from even participating.

[Warlordtheft]

It comes down to understanding that the vehicle sensor rules have two versions:

The shorthand version: A doberman has two rating four cameras and 1 rating 2 radar for a sensor rating of 3. Yes this does mean if the cameras and radar are replaced by a rating 6 camera, the sensor rating goes to 6 and if you add a rating 2 radar it is drops to 4. This inconsistency is why I don't use it. It is the standard rules of the game though.

The long hand version: A doberman has two rating four cameras and 1 rating 2 radar. GmM determines the best applicable sensor and rolls that number of dice.

Both examples provide three channels. To get more you can add thermo graphic, lowlight, and a shotgun microphone to get to your six channels. You can only load a number of sensors in eaqual to the sensor capacity of the vehicle.

After reading the rules that at most a Tacnet (2) is the most feasible option for a rigger. As even though the Tacnet (4) can give more dice, rarely would more than 4 sensors be applicable to any one test.

As to it not affecting dodging and shooting, I would point out that it would assist in helping a shooter decide where to aim at given the direction, cover, wind, etc, etc,etc. Conversely, I would also allow it to assist dodge rolls as it also adds a similar benefit cause of increased situational awareness.

[forgarn]

SR4A, pg 334 provides a chart for the different sizes of sensor packages as well as a description of how the sensors work. A package rating is average of the ratings of the different sensors. So that helicopter with only 8 sensors and an avg rating of 1 for each sensor is pretty pitiful. Vehicles have a capacity of 12 and most everything (except the laser mic) has a capacity cost of 1. I believe that the rules were written the way they were to balance out different packages. A micro sensor package could have a rating of 6 which would mean it could provide 6 channels, but with a capacity of 1 it can only have one physical sensor. I personally agree that it should be the number of relevant individual sensors that should count and that is the way I usually play it. I usually play it as the sensor package counts like a PC and you have to count the channels, regardless of the rating. A camera for instance, is just like a cybereye. So if it has low-light, thermal, and vision mag, it would be able to provide 4 channels. Throw in there ultrasound, radar, directional mic, and ultrawideband radar and you have your 8 channels for a TacNet IV. It all depends on what you (or your GM) are allowing the tacnet to do for the characters.

[Yerameyahu]

I think the rules on drones and TacNets are rather clear. My problem is that the rules as written do not make sense.

Yes, this is what 'a bit of a mess' means. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Draco18s]

The limit is their rating as the Unwired book states

"Drones sensor systems also count; each drone can supply a number of sensor channels equal to its Sensor rating."

it doesn't mean they automatically do, but that they can give up to that many channels if they have the proper gear.

Watch this:

Drone has a rating 6 camera.
Sensor rating 6, channels 1 (of max 6).
Add a microphone, rating 1.
Sensor rating is now 3, channels 2 (of max 3).

Wait what?

[Yerameyahu]

Yup. That's why you simply don't use the 'overall Sensor Rating' rule. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) Ever.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Yup. That's why you simply don't use the 'overall Sensor Rating' rule. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) Ever.

Which is why the optional rule exists. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Krishach]

Correct me if I am wrong here, but it is possible to modify the drone to increase it's sensor package to 8. It uses mod slots and costs a bit extra, but might be worth it for this purpose if you are short a meat friend.

Though personally, with a smaller crew, we tend to run Tactnet 2 or 3 due to lack of bodies. Drones, even with the sensory input, have their own drawbacks when it comes to their relevant dice pools. I only take drones on a run when they are highly modified, usually so they don't get caught.

Tends to be, in our group, that only the rigger/hacker messes with drones enough to bring along. And our rigger isn't always present: so we keep a couple tacnets available and pick the best fit for a run.

[Falconer]

Yes there is an improved sensor array mod. Which increases the drones sensor payload space by one drone step.

Also I'm shocked that no one else has picked up on this. The sensor limit *ONLY* applies to drones. So no even if you have 8 different sensors on a drone. You can only donate "Sensor rating" of them to the tacnet even if you have more.

HOWEVER, all drones are vehicles. Not all vehicles are drones. So if you have a manned helicopter with a size 12 sensor package. It's not a drone, it's a full vehicle. It's not subject to the drone limits. That means that battle van parked outside with the wall penetrating radar is fair game.

[Yerameyahu]

That sounds awfully hairsplitty, Falconer. If you're going to get that much into the crazy RAW, you might as well just use sensible house rules instead. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Getting a Sensor Drone (or even a vehicle) at 6 is easy (and Tacnet 3 is pretty decent). Not really worth the effort to get 8 Channels on a drone (or vehicle) for a Tacnet 4 (assuming you could even use them). Not really worth the +1 extra Dice. *shrug*

[Mantis]

I second that and that is the general consensus in our group as well. If your dice pools are so low that the +1 extra die you get from a rating 4 Tacnet over a rating 3 is going to make or break your character, I think you need to go back to the drawing board.