Missile Mastery "anything" range? Options

[wilcoxon]

Missile Mastery gives the improvised thrown weapons a damage value but no specified range. Arsenal also does not list anything like playing cards, glasses, or pens (not a surprise since they'd only do damage with Missile Mastery).

Any thoughts on what the range should be? Currently I'm thinking 1/2/3/5x (though I could see 1/2/3/4x).

[All4BigGuns]

Missile Mastery gives the improvised thrown weapons a damage value but no specified range. Arsenal also does not list anything like playing cards, glasses, or pens (not a surprise since they'd only do damage with Missile Mastery).

Any thoughts on what the range should be? Currently I'm thinking 1/2/3/5x (though I could see 1/2/3/4x).

If there's an entry for thrown weapons on the range chart, I'd suggest just using that.

Edit- In fact, there is, "Impact Projectiles" on page 151 SR4A. No reason not to just use those for KISS.

[wilcoxon]

If there's an entry for thrown weapons on the range chart, I'd suggest just using that.

Edit- In fact, there is, "Impact Projectiles" on page 151 SR4A. No reason not to just use those for KISS.

Yes, but which one? Arsenal includes a lot more (including a slew of "improvised thrown weapons") with highly variable ranges. Throwing knife is 1/2/3/5x and improvised throwing knife is 1/2/3/4x while baseball is 2/4/6/10x and bowling ball is only 0.5/1/1.5/2x.

[Udoshi]

Yes, but which one? Arsenal includes a lot more (including a slew of "improvised thrown weapons") with highly variable ranges. Throwing knife is 1/2/3/5x and improvised throwing knife is 1/2/3/4x while baseball is 2/4/6/10x and bowling ball is only 0.5/1/1.5/2x.

Closest match or general catch all.
This is a question for your GM.

If the weapon you're improvising changes depending on the moment and what is within reach, so should the ranges of the object.

[wilcoxon]

Closest match or general catch all.
This is a question for your GM.

If the weapon you're improvising changes depending on the moment and what is within reach, so should the ranges of the object.

Sigh. It would have been nice if they officially addressed such a major rules question around the power (but they didn't in the book or in the errata). (IMG:style_emoticons/default/frown.gif)

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Sigh. It would have been nice if they officially addressed such a major rules question around the power (but they didn't in the book or in the errata). (IMG:style_emoticons/default/frown.gif)

They did not, becuase the variability in things that you can throw is astounding, from a toothpick to a Person (or even bigger).

Generally we use 1x, 2x ,3x, 5x for most improvised things with a weight of a Throwing Knife or less. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) If the thing thrown has a range listed already (as in the Improvised Chart), then we use that range category.

[Stahlseele]

Improvised Throwing Weapon(Metahuman Body) deals (Body)Stun Damage. Both Weapon and Target take Damage on the others Body. Both can apply their Impact-Armor to lessen said damage.

[MADness]

Improvised Throwing Weapon(Metahuman Body) deals (Body)Stun Damage. Both Weapon and Target take Damage on the others Body. Both can apply their Impact-Armor to lessen said damage.

This actually brings up a tangential question that has been bugging me for a while. How does one determine damage for being jumped on?

[Stahlseele]

One does not.
One could use the ramming martial arts technique? Or bull-rush or however that's called?
Or do you mean DFA like? Then Falling-Damage probably.

[MADness]

I ask because my parkour adept has both great leap and freefall at 6, and I wasn't sure if jumping onto opponents would be a viable attack option. I mean, it'd be a fairly large height, and if I were wearing Goblin Stompers or the like, it would be interesting.

[Stahlseele]

Ask the Dumpshocker Medicineman.
He Built himself one of these and one for me too i think.
He should be able to answer these kind of questions for you a bit better than me i guess.

[wilcoxon]

They did not, becuase the variability in things that you can throw is astounding, from a toothpick to a Person (or even bigger).

Generally we use 1x, 2x ,3x, 5x for most improvised things with a weight of a Throwing Knife or less. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) If the thing thrown has a range listed already (as in the Improvised Chart), then we use that range category.

If the thing is listed on the Improvised Chart then it is a weapon (and you'll get the +1 DV). The "anything" portion of Missile Mastery is specifically about throwing non-weapons. The power grants a magic ability to turn almost anything into a weapon so, to me, they should have provided ranges (either as simple as "everything goes x/y/z/a x Str" or breaking it up by general weight (and possibly aerodynamic properties)). As it stands, there's likely absolutely no consistency between GMs. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/frown.gif)

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

If the thing is listed on the Improvised Chart then it is a weapon (and you'll get the +1 DV). The "anything" portion of Missile Mastery is specifically about throwing non-weapons. The power grants a magic ability to turn almost anything into a weapon so, to me, they should have provided ranges (either as simple as "everything goes x/y/z/a x Str" or breaking it up by general weight (and possibly aerodynamic properties)). As it stands, there's likely absolutely no consistency between GMs. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/frown.gif)

There is likely no consistency, because eveyrone has different ideas on the viability of what you can throw. *shrug* Most of the people I have seen use what I do. 1x, 2x, 3x, 5x. It is pretty simple and straight forward.

And no, if it is on the Improvised Chart, you would not get a +1 DV becuase THEY ARE NOT WEAPONS. they are IMPROVISED. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Umidori]

I ask because my parkour adept has both great leap and freefall at 6, and I wasn't sure if jumping onto opponents would be a viable attack option. I mean, it'd be a fairly large height, and if I were wearing Goblin Stompers or the like, it would be interesting.

My old cyber lizard intimidation climber... thing... used to make leaping attacks. My then-GM allowed me to roll to jump across a room and onto an opponent. If successful, I could then roll to attack as normal. I don't recall if he treated it as an interrupt action or not, or if I got any bonus for net hits above the distance I was jumping.

It really kind of comes down to GM fiat.

~Umi

[wilcoxon]

There is likely no consistency, because eveyrone has different ideas on the viability of what you can throw. *shrug* Most of the people I have seen use what I do. 1x, 2x, 3x, 5x. It is pretty simple and straight forward.

And no, if it is on the Improvised Chart, you would not get a +1 DV becuase THEY ARE NOT WEAPONS. they are IMPROVISED. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Exactly. The authors should have provided range rules so that there is a consistent basis for ranges using Missile Mastery.

Umm. Yes, you would. Missile Mastery says "adds +1 to the Damage Value of any non-explosive thrown weapon he uses". It gives an explicit exclusion so anything not covered by the exclusion is included (it does not say "non-improvised non-explosive"). Also, the table is explicitly labeled as improvised WEAPONS. Missile Mastery allows throwing non-weapons (without the bonus DV).

[Stahlseele]

Now then, let us get to Grenades used as improvised(maybe not even improvised) throwing Weapons to get dead on Hits and Ground 0 Explosion damage. Again.

[Yerameyahu]

Sigh.

[Draco18s]

Now then, let us get to Grenades used as improvised(maybe not even improvised) throwing Weapons to get dead on Hits and Ground 0 Explosion damage. Again.

One of these days they will run a missions game near me.

And I will know about it.

And I will do that.

[Yerameyahu]

Heh. If that worked, then so would firearms that hit people with grenades, which then exploded. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Exactly. The authors should have provided range rules so that there is a consistent basis for ranges using Missile Mastery.

Umm. Yes, you would. Missile Mastery says "adds +1 to the Damage Value of any non-explosive thrown weapon he uses". It gives an explicit exclusion so anything not covered by the exclusion is included (it does not say "non-improvised non-explosive"). Also, the table is explicitly labeled as improvised WEAPONS. Missile Mastery allows throwing non-weapons (without the bonus DV).

Really, SO my 16p Nail gains a +1 DV? It is an improvised weapon after all...
ANd My Playing Card gets a +1 DV? After all, Improvised Weapon...

Please show me how a Normal Bottle has a DV value when it is not used as an Improvised Weapon. Or a Metahuman Body, or a Bowling Ball. These are ALL NON_WEAPONS

You are wrong on this one.

[wilcoxon]

Really, SO my 16p Nail gains a +1 DV? It is an improvised weapon after all...
ANd My Playing Card gets a +1 DV? After all, Improvised Weapon...

Please show me how a Normal Bottle has a DV value when it is not used as an Improvised Weapon. Or a Metahuman Body, or a Bowling Ball. These are ALL NON_WEAPONS

You are wrong on this one.

Both of your examples would *not* get +1 DV. Improvised thrown weapons are what is listed in Arsenal or SR4a (or what you can convince your GM is one) and get a +1 DV. Non-weapons require Missile Mastery to be thrown as weapons and explicitly do not get the +1 DV (they simply get a damage of Str/2).

A bottle or a bowling ball (or a body if the thrower is strong enough) can certainly be thrown by anyone (and fairly well) and cause damage.

Would it have been clearer to you if they said "+1 DV to throw any non-explosive that someone else can throw for damage"? That's pretty clearly (at least to me) the intent (and RAW).

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Both of your examples would *not* get +1 DV. Improvised thrown weapons are what is listed in Arsenal or SR4a (or what you can convince your GM is one) and get a +1 DV. Non-weapons require Missile Mastery to be thrown as weapons and explicitly do not get the +1 DV (they simply get a damage of Str/2).

A bottle or a bowling ball (or a body if the thrower is strong enough) can certainly be thrown by anyone (and fairly well) and cause damage.

Would it have been clearer to you if they said "+1 DV to throw any non-explosive that someone else can throw for damage"? That's pretty clearly (at least to me) the intent (and RAW).

It is quite clear enough. Any NON WEAPON gains damage DV equal to Str/2. Bowling balls are NOT WEAPONS, even if they do have a chart for them called Improvised Weapons. Though they do have their own damage codes, becuase anyone can throw them. Just because they can be thrown, however, does not mean that they get a +1 DV to damage, becuase they are not weapons in their own right.

Here it is in its entirety...

Even the most harmless of items such as pens, coins, and playing cards become deadly weapons in the hands of an adept with Missile Mastery. Such is the character’s knack for throwing weapons that he adds +1 to the Damage Value of any non-explosive thrown weapon he uses.

Improvised thrown weapons (such as playing cards, glasses or pens) have a Damage Value of (STR ÷ 2)P (round up) in the adept’s hands. At the adept’s discretion, thrown weapons that normally inflict stun damage may instead inflict physical.

Improvised Weapons ARE NOT WEAPONS, so any entry on the Improvised Chart IS NOT A WEAPON BY DEFAULT, and is therefore Improvised. Thus the Name of the Chart.

Of course my examples of Cards or Nails would not get the DV. I said as much. Neither would a Metahuman Body, a Bottle or a Bowling Ball. You were the one arguing that they should. Go back and read your post, because that is what you were saying (POST #15, if you don't remember). Only NORMAL THROWING WEAPONS would gain the +1 DV to Damage.

[Umidori]

Please show me how a Normal Bottle has a DV value when it is not used as an Improvised Weapon. Or a Metahuman Body, or a Bowling Ball. These are ALL NON_WEAPONS

And a sword isn't a weapon either, it's just a fancy letter opener that you "improvise" into dealing damage, right?

This is absurd. An improvised weapon is still a weapon. It's just not INTENDED to be a weapon. That doesn't mean it isn't one, however. Is an Improvised Explosive Device somehow not an explosive device? Would a hypothetical bonus to rigging explosives not apply to an improvised explosive?

Missile Mastery gives you increased damage when you hit someone with an object propelled by the force of your arm. It obviously doesn't increase the damage value of explosives because that is a quality intrinsic to the detonating explosive, not to how hard you bean someone in the head with the explosive.

Missile Mastery quite clearly operates just like any other Weapon Skill DV bonus - id est, it applies to attacks which utilize the Thrown weapon skill (with the notable exception of grenades). This is no different than martial artists geting a DV bonus for weapons that use the Blades, the Blunt, or the Unarmed weapon skills. This is no different than an adept getting bonus damage on their Unarmed with Critical Strike.

If I have an Improvised Unarmed weapon, it still gets any DV bonus to Unarmed that may apply. It doesn't matter if that improvised weapon is a set of car-keys protuding from between the knuckles, or a rag coated on one side with glue and broken glass worn wrapped around the knuckles, or even if it's a goddamn newspaper folded over into "brass-knuckles" akin to a Millwall Brick.

If I'm an Arnisador using a lead pipe instead of a rattan stick, I should get my Blunt weapons DV bonus. Or if instead I have the bonus to Blades for knife training, I should still get that as well if I'm using a shiv, or if I'm using the broken off head of a spear, or whatever. So long as it's not too radically different from the applicable "intended" weapon, it should apply.

~Umi

[wilcoxon]

It is quite clear enough. Any NON WEAPON gains damage DV equal to Str/2. Bowling balls are NOT WEAPONS, even if they do have a chart for them called Improvised Weapons. Though they do have their own damage codes, becuase anyone can throw them. Just because they can be thrown, however, does not mean that they get a +1 DV to damage, becuase they are not weapons in their own right.

Here it is in its entirety...

Improvised Weapons ARE NOT WEAPONS, so any entry on the Improvised Chart IS NOT A WEAPON BY DEFAULT, and is therefore Improvised. Thus the Name of the Chart.

Of course my examples of Cards or Nails would not get the DV. I said as much. Neither would a Metahuman Body, a Bottle or a Bowling Ball. You were the one arguing that they should. Go back and read your post, because that is what you were saying (POST #15, if you don't remember). Only NORMAL THROWING WEAPONS would gain the +1 DV to Damage.

I know exactly what I was saying. I never said playing cards or nails should get a bonus (but you claimed in your earlier post that I did). I did (and do) claim that the improvised weapons listed in Arsenal (or elsewhere) would get the +1 DV.

The use of the word Improvised in Street Magic is defined as things like playing cards, glasses, and pens (all clearly not weapons in the hands of someone without Missile mastery). The use of Improvised in Arsenal describes things that can be thrown as weapons by *anyone* to do damage. Poor word choice in Street Magic. You seem to be stuck on the two uses of the word improvised to mean very different things.

By your logic, an adept with Missile Mastery would do *LESS* damage than a normal person because all improvised weapons would only do Str/2 (rather than the often higher damage listed on the chart in Arsenal).

Nowhere does Missile Mastery say "normal" thrown weapons or "Thrown Weapons" (as in the category) - it says "any non-explosive thrown weapon".

Missile Mastery does 3 separate things (in this order):
1) Makes *all* non-explosive thrown weapons deal +1 DV.
2) Allows the adept to throw just about any non-weapon to do Str/2 damage.
3) Allows the adept the option to do physical damage if the weapon would normally do stun.

I'm done. I can see this argument heading in circles...

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

I know exactly what I was saying. I never said playing cards or nails should get a bonus (but you claimed in your earlier post that I did). I did (and do) claim that the improvised weapons listed in Arsenal (or elsewhere) would get the +1 DV.

The use of the word Improvised in Street Magic is defined as things like playing cards, glasses, and pens (all clearly not weapons in the hands of someone without Missile mastery). The use of Improvised in Arsenal describes things that can be thrown as weapons by *anyone* to do damage. Poor word choice in Street Magic. You seem to be stuck on the two uses of the word improvised to mean very different things.

By your logic, an adept with Missile Mastery would do *LESS* damage than a normal person because all improvised weapons would only do Str/2 (rather than the often higher damage listed on the chart in Arsenal).

Nowhere does Missile Mastery say "normal" thrown weapons or "Thrown Weapons" (as in the category) - it says "any non-explosive thrown weapon".

Missile Mastery does 3 separate things (in this order):
1) Makes *all* non-explosive thrown weapons deal +1 DV.
2) Allows the adept to throw just about any non-weapon to do Str/2 damage.
3) Allows the adept the option to do physical damage if the weapon would normally do stun.

I'm done. I can see this argument heading in circles...

Why should Impovised Weapons get the bonus DV? THEY ARE IMPROVISED... THEY ARE NOT WEAPONS. And the DV boost only applies to Weapons. That is what a non-explosive thrown WEAPON is. The definition of Improvised does not chance from book to book.
Using your definition, anything Improvised is a Weapon, as such, a Nail is a Non-Explosive Thrown Weapon, as is an Icicle, or a Snowball, or basketball. Your logic is flawed...

Items on the improvised Chart would not (and should not) receive the damage, because they have already been provided with a Damage Code. That does not make them a WEAPON.