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> Arethusa's Semi-Canon Problem Solvers, (not really related to canon revision)
Arethusa
post Apr 16 2004, 07:36 AM
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And since it's not related maybe some people will actually read this.

Arethusa's Semi-Canon Problem Solvers

And a download link for those who'd like a simple .zip with a .doc and .htm.

What are these, you may wonder? I've seen tons of people take shots at creating new guns, but most of them just tend to be severly broken. I figured that the canon Shadowrun arsenal had a ton of holes and could use some stuff to fill it in, and since my GM at the time was very strict when it came to deviating from canon, I came up with this list of firearms designed to mesh with the purely canon SR guns. Add in all of them, add in some, add in a couple and severly modify them— do what you like, but also do let me know what you think. Further details in the files themselves.

[edit: minor errors fixed, new files uploaded; read below for details]

[edit 2: less minor errors fixed and general consistency is now solid; read below for details]

[edit 3: almost a year later, the links are unsurprisngly down. In case anyone is (improbably) interested in this and since I recently linked to it a couple times, links have been updated]

This post has been edited by Arethusa: Mar 18 2005, 03:47 AM
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kerensky
post Apr 16 2004, 02:56 PM
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Nice job. I've always held sniper rifles in a special place, and now, I have more of them to cherish.
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Backgammon
post Apr 16 2004, 06:01 PM
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[edit: read first, then ask silly questions!]

[2nd edit:] I think it's a bad idea to rename clip weapons magazine weapons, even if you are right. Stick with © rather than (m)
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Nath
post Apr 16 2004, 07:42 PM
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QUOTE
Giat FSA-12
The Giat Fusil de Shot Avançé is, as its name suggests, an advanced form of combat shotgun.

'Shotgun' is not really translatable in French, and certainly not with such barbarism ;) You often see 'fusil à pompe' even when they're not pump action. It lead to the use of its own barbarism like 'fusil à pompe semi-automatique' and 'fusil à pompe automatique'. It could be more accurate to simply precise the caliber ('fusil calibre 12' for instance). Finally, you can also speak about a 'fusil d'appui' (support rifle) by opposition to 'fusil d'assaut' (assault rifle), an expression I've seen used to encompass shotguns and 'assault rifles' like a H&K G-3 with a grenade launcher used as a support weapons.

And there's no cedilla in 'avancé'.

QUOTE
AI Ultima Ratio Regum
(homage to AK404’s Anime Weapons companion)
The Accuracy International Ultima Ratio Regum is a vicious antimatériel rifle

AK404 added 'regum' to the name and you made it an Accuracy International rifle. But originally the illustration it was based upon showed the Ultima Ratio rifle from PGM Précision.
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Arethusa
post Apr 16 2004, 09:05 PM
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kerensky: thanks.

Backgammon: fair enough, but at worst, if you really must change it because it's too confusing, just run it through Word and replace all (m) with © and all (im) with (m), in that order.

Nath: I have to say, despite having taken three years of French, the correct terminaology for shotgun never came up, and this is what I got off a website. Or, more accurately, had someone else get for me since he was using the computer during the gaming session where I wrote out the name, which accounts for the 'fusil de shot' and the cedilla in 'avançé.' I will say, however, that I'm ok with shot rifle, since pump rifle and automatic pump rifle are much stupider, and it's not like the French haven't completely changed words around before (anyone remember email?). As for 'fusil calibre 12,' terrible idea when SR canon doesn't touch calibers.

And I am aware of the French military's awesomely named Ultima Ratio, but the fact remains that I initially decided to run with the name while reading through his (somewhat canon incompatible) anime weapons compendium.
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Entropy Kid
post Apr 17 2004, 12:00 AM
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A little proof editing needed.
QUOTE
Nomenclature for suppressor is also correct, and you will never see the term silencer used here.
Except that the word "silencer" appears nine more times. Not trying to be a bitch, just something I noticed.
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Arethusa
post Apr 17 2004, 12:43 AM
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Hoo, that's a big mistake. I did originally start off using standard SR nomenclature, and that just got left behind when I switched over. Did rush this to get it out because I'd been sitting on it so long.

And, no, you're not being a bitch. Really, thank you for mentioning that.

.zip and .htm should be updated.
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Austere Emancipa...
post Apr 17 2004, 02:06 PM
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Was finally going to comment, but Secondimpact.Net is down. At least I couldn't get a ping through to it.

[Edit]Back online. Commenting shall commence soon.[/Edit]
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Austere Emancipa...
post Apr 17 2004, 08:12 PM
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QUOTE (ASCPS @ FN 6500)
negates up to 5 points of ballistic armor/barrier rating

That's pretty fricken powerful. In almost all cases (Ballistic Armor 8 or less), the Damage Resistance Test TN will be 6. Heavy Security Armor with a helmet will not significantly help in stopping bullets fired from it. This is way more powerful and a whole lot cheaper than APDS ammunition is, and I firmly believe it could do with some fixing.

You could, for example, keep the Damage Code, change the effect to that of APDS (half Ballistic, round down) and slightly increase prise of the ammunition. Or something like that.

Serbu Siris 2 could probably do with a Concealability of 6 instead of 5. You might not need that large a suppressor with that small a weapon/cartridge. That, or you could up it to Light Pistol damage (6L).

QUOTE (Arethusa)
The HK 227 series marked a radical shift in HK’s design doctrine: no longer were its weapons for the elite

Considering how ubiquitous the MP5 is, I don't think it was designed or marketed to the "elite". It's most commonly used by average police forces as their main (and only) SMG. Slightly more expensive than a MAC-10, maybe, but that doesn't really qualify as elite. The G36 is also just an AR like every other, at only $950.

Don't get me wrong, I don't mind you making really high-quality high-tech HK weapons, not at all. I've no problem with the MP10, indeed I like it a lot. But the above statement might be slightly misleading.

Benelli 881/882: Why do the 882s get a point of RC for their stock, but the 881s do not? Neither will ever get to fire twice in a single Initiative Pass as it stands. Which reminds me, you might want to give the 882s SA mode, so both barrels can be fired in 1 Init Pass.

Serbu Super Shorty: What does the (t) mean in their Ammo figures? I figure if I don't immediately get it, someone else might not either. When compared to the IMI Mag-8, the Super Shorties could also do with a Concealability of 5. Not a real issue though.

IMI Karoz et al: From a realism PoV, a Concealability 3 weapon with an integral 8-shot magazine-feeding grenade launcher seems slightly odd. Nothing wrong with it from a rules-persepective, though, and I think there are several weapons with equal Conc ratings and multi-shot GLs in canon anyway. On the other hand, the Ares Antioch 6-shot UB GL modifies Concealability by -3. These are pretty cheap for ARs with 2 points of internal RC.

SG910-series: Same minor issues as with the IMI Karoz. Cheap for 3 internal RC, I think. 6-shot GL for -1 Concealability might be too much.

AI URR: "Muzzle Brake: additional Unwieldy weapon penalty after each shot of +1" What does this mean, actually? Is it a type, and the Muzzle Brake actually lowers the Unwieldy Weapon penalty by 1? Or is it supposed to be useless, and increase the Penalty because of the insane noise? Still, I like this version a lot more than the 7.62mm APFSDSDU of the original...

Everything else I liked. :)
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Arethusa
post Apr 17 2004, 09:26 PM
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Sorry about the hosting. I don't really have access to anything, myself. Second impact's a site a friend of mine used to help run, and she still had access.

QUOTE (Austere Emancipator)
That's pretty fricken powerful. In almost all cases (Ballistic Armor 8 or less), the Damage Resistance Test TN will be 6. Heavy Security Armor with a helmet will not significantly help in stopping bullets fired from it. This is way more powerful and a whole lot cheaper than APDS ammunition is, and I firmly believe it could do with some fixing.

You could, for example, keep the Damage Code, change the effect to that of APDS (half Ballistic, round down) and slightly increase prise of the ammunition. Or something like that.

Fair enough, I suppose, though the intent was basically to create a dedicated AP weapon that couldn't really do a hell of a lot of damage. I think I'll just go with your suggestion of applying APDS affects, though I think I'll be upping the damage code to 10L. And, yeah, ammunition costs could do with an increase. I forgot that cannon ammunition's rather damn pricy.

QUOTE (Austere Emancipator)
Serbu Siris 2 could probably do with a Concealability of 6 instead of 5. You might not need that large a suppressor with that small a weapon/cartridge. That, or you could up it to Light Pistol damage (6L).

I really intended this to be a light offensive pistol, hence conceal 5. 6 is pretty small, though I know SR canon weapons are capable of warping space and time when it comes to concealability. And, yeah, I'll take it up to 6L. Doesn't do much good, even with headshots bypassing armor, without it.

QUOTE (Austere Emancipator)
Considering how ubiquitous the MP5 is, I don't think it was designed or marketed to the "elite". It's most commonly used by average police forces as their main (and only) SMG. Slightly more expensive than a MAC-10, maybe, but that doesn't really qualify as elite. The G36 is also just an AR like every other, at only $950.

Don't get me wrong, I don't mind you making really high-quality high-tech HK weapons, not at all. I've no problem with the MP10, indeed I like it a lot. But the above statement might be slightly misleading.

You have a point probably does come across wrong. It really is my feeling that regardless of how ubiquitous MP5s are now and HK227s are supposedly in the future, the MP5 series was designed to a much higher standard than low cost/ huge market share ethic of the HK227. I'll clarify this in the text.

Also, the G36 may weight in as a normal assault rifle, but a lot of HK's other stuff is noticably more expensive than other weapons in the same class.

QUOTE (Austere Emancipator)
Benelli 881/882: Why do the 882s get a point of RC for their stock, but the 881s do not? Neither will ever get to fire twice in a single Initiative Pass as it stands. Which reminds me, you might want to give the 882s SA mode, so both barrels can be fired in 1 Init Pass.

Forgot to include a note about my house rule that SS only takes a single action (in the case of, say, a manually operated shotgun, another single action would be required to rechamber it; it's just stupid that canon forces you to do all of this in one straight action).

[edit: hey, wait a minute, I did; trying to trick me and my sleep deprivation, you crafty bastard...]

QUOTE (Austere Emancipator)
Serbu Super Shorty: What does the (t) mean in their Ammo figures? I figure if I don't immediately get it, someone else might not either. When compared to the IMI Mag-8, the Super Shorties could also do with a Concealability of 5. Not a real issue though.

Tubular magazine. Forgot to include a note about that, too. Whoops. As for concealability, there's just no way to sanely rule that they should be able to achieve a concealability of 6 while the canon Predator sits at 4. I'll have to leave them as is and hope the cost differential (and eccentricity) is enough to hold them.

QUOTE (Austere Emancipator)
IMI Karoz et al: From a realism PoV, a Concealability 3 weapon with an integral 8-shot magazine-feeding grenade launcher seems slightly odd. Nothing wrong with it from a rules-persepective, though, and I think there are several weapons with equal Conc ratings and multi-shot GLs in canon anyway. On the other hand, the Ares Antioch 6-shot UB GL modifies Concealability by -3. These are pretty cheap for ARs with 2 points of internal RC.

Originally, they were single shot (ie real) grenade launchers. I changed them because they were severely underpowered in comparison to stuff like the Ares Alpha, which likewise makes no fucking sense. C'est le canon.

QUOTE (Austere Emancipator)
SG910-series: Same minor issues as with the IMI Karoz. Cheap for 3 internal RC, I think. 6-shot GL for -1 Concealability might be too much.

Same as above. Any less and it's beaten by the Alpha fairly easily. Did make the mistake of stying more realistic with the prices than I intended, though; I'll fix that.

QUOTE (Austere Emancipator)
AI URR: "Muzzle Brake: additional Unwieldy weapon penalty after each shot of +1" What does this mean, actually? Is it a type, and the Muzzle Brake actually lowers the Unwieldy Weapon penalty by 1? Or is it supposed to be useless, and increase the Penalty because of the insane noise? Still, I like this version a lot more than the 7.62mm APFSDSDU of the original...

Sorry, I did forget to explain the Unwiely Weapon penalty, which was a ablancing mechanic I came up with at my GM insistence that it was too powerful without something to stop a plucky Samurai from dragging into CQB (and it was, but at that point, I just couldn't imagine that the game didn't have something in place to stop him or her). Basically, handle it like recoil that doesn't go away until you spend time aiming and repositioning the weapon. These aiming actions don't count against your max aiming bonus (of, I believe, half skill, rounded down), however. That's all.

And thanks for the comments. Much appreciated.
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Austere Emancipa...
post Apr 17 2004, 09:45 PM
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QUOTE (Arethusa)
a lot of HK's other stuff is noticably more expensive than other weapons in the same class.

No argument there. Ahh, PSG-1...

QUOTE
Forgot to include a note about my house rule that SS only takes a single action

That's in the Notes on top of the page, actually. Even so, if a weapon with 2 shots has a firing mode of SS, then it cannot possibly fire 2 shots in one Init Pass, right? If it required neither an additional action to cycle nor a 1 Simple Action "wait", then it's technically (rules-wise) a SA-mode weapon.

And you can still mention the Stock: +1 RC bit in the 881, it's just useless. Mentioning useless stuff is never bad. :)

QUOTE
Sorry, I did forget to explain the Unwiely Weapon penalty

You probably should add the explanation to the site, but I actually knew what it meant due to some earlier discussions about the Barrett M121 where it came up.

I meant to write "typo" instead of "type", which is rather ironical... The reason I asked was because the line: "Muzzle Brake: additional Unwieldy weapon penalty after each shot of +1" would mean that the Muzzle Brake adds +1 to the Unwieldy Weapon penalty, making it +4, but provides no bonuses whatsoever. As it is, there's absolutely no reason to use the Muzzle Brake, since it only gives a penalty, no bonus, while the Suppressor gives a bonus and no penalties. You'd be better off without any barrel mod than with the Muzzle Brake with the current entry.

For everything else: Agreed.
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Arethusa
post Apr 17 2004, 10:05 PM
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Yeah, but in the case of the 881 and 882, they're SS, breech loaded. So, blast of twice during an init pass and then reload on the next.

As for that Muzzle brake, I think that's a leftover from not finishing the numbers last summer and not noticing that I never got to it in the last few days. Just a moment. Had intended for there to be no penalty with the brake and a +1 penalty with the suppressor.
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Entropy Kid
post Apr 17 2004, 10:14 PM
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If being semi-canon, then the cellphone gun and pen gun need their own skills linked to Quickness. The the gun cane, bracer, and eye gun (CC) have their own skills.
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Austere Emancipa...
post Apr 17 2004, 10:20 PM
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QUOTE (Arethusa)
Yeah, but in the case of the 881 and 882, they're SS, breech loaded. So, blast of twice during an init pass and then reload on the next.

That's still pretty weird. Like I said, if a gun can be fired twice with two Simple Actions in a single Init Pass, then it is for all intents and purposes a Semi-Automatic weapon as far as the rules are concerned.

A Single-Shot weapon with an ammo code of 2(b) should then either require you to fire the weapon once in one Init Pass as a Single Action and then wait until the next Init Pass to fire it again once as a Single Action. Then you could reload it as per reloading rules for breech loaded/break open weapons and start again.

An otherwise similar Semi-Automatic weapon can fire twice in the same Init Pass with 2 Single Actions, after which you can reload the weapon as above and then start again.

On the other thing, that's what I thought it should have meant. Just change the wording to "Negates 1 point of Unwieldy Weapon Penalty" or something like that and it should be OK.
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Arethusa
post Apr 17 2004, 10:30 PM
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QUOTE (Entropy Kid)
If being semi-canon, then the cellphone gun and pen gun need their own skills linked to Quickness. The the gun cane, bracer, and eye gun (CC) have their own skills.

I really feel this is close enough to firing a gun to not warrant that, not to mention that the aforementioned mechanic is just too damn wrong for me to buy into. Who the hell would pay even 1 karma for such a singular game element?

QUOTE (Austere Emancipator)
That's still pretty weird. Like I said, if a gun can be fired twice with two Simple Actions in a single Init Pass, then it is for all intents and purposes a Semi-Automatic weapon as far as the rules are concerned.

A Single-Shot weapon with an ammo code of 2(b) should then either require you to fire the weapon once in one Init Pass as a Single Action and then wait until the next Init Pass to fire it again once as a Single Action. Then you could reload it as per reloading rules for breech loaded/break open weapons and start again.

An otherwise similar Semi-Automatic weapon can fire twice in the same Init Pass with 2 Single Actions, after which you can reload the weapon as above and then start again.

Basically, two barrels, each with one shell loaded, and two triggers. That's still single shot (deviation from canon nomenclature, but not function), though the rate of fire is pretty much going to be the same as SA.

As for the URR, should be fixed and uploaded now.
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Entropy Kid
post Apr 17 2004, 11:33 PM
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QUOTE
I really feel this is close enough to firing a gun to not warrant that, not to mention that the aforementioned mechanic is just too damn wrong for me to buy into. Who the hell would pay even 1 karma for such a singular game element?
My own feelings are a bit mixed: The eye gun is about as natural as aiming gets, so I don't think it should require a new skill, just use Quickness for the attack test without a TN increase; but for the other weapons I can understand a TN increase (from +1~+2) because of the added difficulty in aiming.

I think the bracer is the only one that comes with a +TN built in, but the +2 penalty for defaulting works well (enough) to represent that the weapons are pointed rather than aimed.

Spending, or wasting (depending) karma represents the extra effort to learn aiming something that doesn't even have a front sight. If you'd rule that those weapons didn't require a different skill, I'd also expect a TN penalty that reflected their inherent inaccuracy (not including the eye gun).
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Austere Emancipa...
post Apr 17 2004, 11:51 PM
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QUOTE (Arethusa)
Basically, two barrels, each with one shell loaded, and two triggers. That's still single shot (deviation from canon nomenclature, but not function), though the rate of fire is pretty much going to be the same as SA.

Yep, that's exactly the kind of gun I was thinking about, and I realize that calling it "Semi-Automatic" is pretty weird from in a Real World sense. But rules-wise, it works like a Semi-Automatic weapon and not like a Single Shot weapon. The rate-of-fire will indeed be exactly what you get from an SA weapon and not what you'd get from an SS weapon.

But when we're discussing about a single letter on a text that long, I guess the point is that the text is pretty darn good. :)

QUOTE (Entropy Kid)
If you'd rule that those weapons didn't require a different skill, I'd also expect a TN penalty that reflected their inherent inaccuracy (not including the eye gun).

That's what I'd do, certainly. Approximate skill and add a TN penalty. This is definitely not canon, however. By canon, you would indeed need a separate skill for all those specialty weapons.
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Arethusa
post Apr 18 2004, 01:39 AM
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Added to files.
QUOTE
Special weapons are assumed to default from either Quickness or Pistols at no penalty using tazer ranges; alternatively, you are free to stick to canon and create skills— specifically, in this case, Pen Gun and Cell Phone Gun— but that’s obviously as worthlessly stupid as it’s ever been.  As a far better alternative, default to quickness or pistols at a +2 penalty and use standard hold out ranges.


QUOTE (Austere Emancipator)
Yep, that's exactly the kind of gun I was thinking about, and I realize that calling it "Semi-Automatic" is pretty weird from in a Real World sense. But rules-wise, it works like a Semi-Automatic weapon and not like a Single Shot weapon. The rate-of-fire will indeed be exactly what you get from an SA weapon and not what you'd get from an SS weapon.

But when we're discussing about a single letter on a text that long, I guess the point is that the text is pretty darn good. :)

Yeah, I realize some confusion could be generated by this, but I find it personally kind of obnoxious whenever I read stuff with clip/magazine or the SS/SA (well, not that SS and SA, though I guess any confusion there'd be bad too) mistake. With any luck, the foreward'll alleviate any potential confusion from sticking to real life terms.

And, thanks. Much appreciated.
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