Techno Adepts, where are they? Options

[Makki]

I'm really missing Resonance specialists, equivalent to Adepts.
Building a pure TM sucks up all the build points you have and you really need all the tricks (Sprites, Rigging, Hacking, etc) to some degree.

I wonder if there was a cheaper way to build someone who uses Resonance, but is also doing something else.

A Facemancer, who focuses on Empathy Software,
a Technoinfiltrator, who's only ability is to fool sensors,
many more ideas

[Laughing One]

I've built something similar. It was a gunslinger techno, using the karma rules allowing submerging on chargen to utilize the acceleration echo. Also using diagnostics on your guns. Its not better than the alternatives (by far), but its a cool concept. I hope that there will be a Way of the Technomancer book that will address the issue.

[Yerameyahu]

As things stand, there's not much you can do without the full suite of techno powers. So it's just a very hard problem involving a ton of novel content.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

I'm really missing Resonance specialists, equivalent to Adepts.
Building a pure TM sucks up all the build points you have and you really need all the tricks (Sprites, Rigging, Hacking, etc) to some degree.

I wonder if there was a cheaper way to build someone who uses Resonance, but is also doing something else.

A Facemancer, who focuses on Empathy Software,
a Technoinfiltrator, who's only ability is to fool sensors,
many more ideas

I created a People-Watcher/Profiler (Facemancer) before. He is interesting. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Yerameyahu]

A Gargoyle?

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

A Gargoyle?

??? - Amusing, but no... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Jhaiisiin]

Given that Techno's focus is Computers in general, it's likely difficult to trim that down to have hyperfocused adept types. Would be neat to see though.

[almost normal]

The closest I could think to of a concept would be a Techno-adept who could transfer his ego, including body stats, into the matrix. He'd treat all matrix encounters as if they were real encounters, just weird. Physically punching ICe for instance. A power could be bringing firearms or melee weapons into the matrix, and their stats carrying over as if they were real.

[Yerameyahu]

That's pretty imaginative.

Presumably, a resonance adept would be the Awakened equivalent, given that technos are mage equivalents. The problem is that (apart from designing a full set of 'adept powers'), the technomancer is already pretty adept-y. He doesn't have spells, he has these ability boost powers. He *does* have spirits, but he also really needs them. You couldn't not give him 'astral perception/projection', because of how the Matrix works. So… technos are already very Adept, and they can scarcely afford to lose any of their 'Mage'-ness either.

[Halinn]

The easiest way to build a technomancer that functions in the real world as well is to ignore having your own hacking abilities and rely exclusively on sprites. Not buying CFs or hacking skills frees up a lot of build points, which can go towards face-skills (physical combat being suboptimal before you can get the extra IP echoes, which is a fairly long way down the line). You'd probably still want the more defensive CFs, such as stealth or shield, but combat, hacking or browsing can be done equally well by a sprite.

[Yerameyahu]

Better, really. I feel like it's normal for technos to do exactly what you suggest. … Unfortunately. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/frown.gif) It would be nice indeed if technos had a bit more incentive to specialize, or even a good option of being no-sprites or only-sprites. Those kinds of limited variants are fun, and notably missing from SR4 mages as well.

[almost normal]

Better, really. I feel like it's normal for technos to do exactly what you suggest. … Unfortunately. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/frown.gif) It would be nice indeed if technos had a bit more incentive to specialize, or even a good option of being no-sprites or only-sprites. Those kinds of limited variants are fun, and notably missing from SR4 mages as well.

Yeah. It's odd how there's wild technomancers, and that their downside is pretty awesome, yet there's not really an equivalent wild mage.

I feel like there's a lot of stupidity in Shadowrun, I feel like the writers and devs know this, and I feel like they're handcuffed by TPTB, preventing them from fixing things we all see as boogered, odd, or just plain wrong.

[Yerameyahu]

I dunno. SR3 had a better (if not great? I dunno) method of having spirit-only mages, spell-only mages, etc. While I admit that it's a tough problem given the new BP/quality system, I would like it a lot of aspected mages (and resonance equivs) were a nice, viable category.

[Halinn]

I dunno. SR3 had a better (if not great? I dunno) method of having spirit-only mages, spell-only mages, etc. While I admit that it's a tough problem given the new BP/quality system, I would like it a lot of aspected mages (and resonance equivs) were a nice, viable category.

Perhaps make aspected magicians slightly better, and use the Expert Aspected Magician optional rule.
I don't think that astral combat, arcana or enchanting should be penalized for being a conjurer, sorcerer or locked in a category. And correspondingly, the astral aspect and enchanter aspect ought to give more BP.

[NiL_FisK_Urd]

The biggest deterrence for me is the penalty to assensing. Wirhout it, most of my mages would use the aspected magican NQ.

[Makki]

how about something along the line of this:

Techno Adept
Cost: 5 BP
Techno Adepts follow mostly the same rules as Technomancers, except for a few adjustments. A TA only has access to a maximum of different complex forms equal to half his Resonance attribute. However, he never has to spend build points or karma on them, as their rating is always equal to his Resonance attribute. Increasing the rating by Threading is still possible and Fading is always stun damage.
Techno Adepts don't have access to any skills from the Tasking group.


Please adjust any numbers as you like.

[Inu]

A Gargoyle?

Hehe, someone's read Snow Crash!

[Aerospider]

how about something along the line of this:

Techno Adept
Cost: 5 BP
Techno Adepts follow mostly the same rules as Technomancers, except for a few adjustments. A TA only has access to a maximum of different complex forms equal to half his Resonance attribute. However, he never has to spend build points or karma on them, as their rating is always equal to his Resonance attribute. Increasing the rating by Threading is still possible and Fading is always stun damage.
Techno Adepts don't have access to any skills from the Tasking group.


Please adjust any numbers as you like.

Not convinced to be honest. You get a hacker with less than a handful of perks for a lot of BP. Suppose he goes for Resonance 4. That's 35 build points to save the cost of two rating 4 programs. Granted he can boost them and they don't take up processor load, but it's still too expensive. And I foresee problems with having your programs split between commlink and brain. Can they work in conjunction?

I thought this thread was more about building an analogy to magic, which would mean crafting Matrix powers not available to regular TMs. The problem is finding enough utility for them that isn't already there, when the system was not designed to have such holes.

[Makki]

I thought this thread was more about building an analogy to magic, which would mean crafting Matrix powers not available to regular TMs. The problem is finding enough utility for them that isn't already there, when the system was not designed to have such holes.

I think this thread should explore EVERY possible way anybody can think of. Just Brainstorming.
Actually, I believe converting magical adepts and their powers into a resonance equivalent could be much easier than we thought:

Kinesics -> Chatty: +1 to online social encouters (exactly like the quality)
Killing Hands -> Black something: convert all matrix damage done to psychotropic
Enhanced Perception, Attribute Boost, Improved Reflexes, Mystic Armor, Rapid Healing, Animal Empathy
These are just a few, that are totally obvious.
Now the interesting thing will be to invent creative new powers, that not yet reflected by submersion powers. Some Sprite powers could work very well as Resonance Adept powers, too.

[Falconer]

The problem is this. Technomancer is already a 5BP quality much more akin to 'mystic adept' than to full magician.

Technomancer 'adept' abilities are already in the game in the form of echo's. In fact, it's far cheaper to learn echoes than it is to raise resonance and programs. A lot of the echoes already mimic adept powers in slightly different ways. If you wished to make a techno-adept... the way isn't to make up a new quality with tons of broken crap (like CF's for free... and CF's can only run on your living persona... you can't load them into your normal commlink... remember techno hacking/computer skills are different and must be learned seperately from old-fashioned hacker skills).

If you want to build a techno-adept. The best way to do it is to ignore your own bionode and it's CF's etc... limiting your hacking skills in favor of it's secure commlink status. Example: A street sam/techno... hosts a CF tacnet, CF smartlink, CF perception type programs, uses machine sprites on his guns or tasks them to attack nodes for him. Focuses on echoes instead of CF's to enhance his arsenal... such as biowires. e-sensing, multi-tasking, etc.


Effectively the techno is loaded into his living persona... with his CF's loaded into that persona. And also logged into his commlink persona with it's own mundane programs loaded into it (maybe even multiple commlink personas). It takes an action to switch between personas, this is covered in the rules. Each persona has an icon as well... you'd need to have both the living persona and the regular icon in the same node.. and both could be attacked seperately. Neither icon can use the other icons programs.


All you're doing is trying to mimic magic even more. Something many people think was already done too much of.

[Yerameyahu]

The problem is this. Technomancer is already a 5BP quality much more akin to 'mystic adept' than to full magician.

Exactly. I really think the only relevant split is 'sprites'/'no-sprites', because they really don't have spells. They have 'spirits' and 'adept powers' (including Threading, to me).

[almost normal]

Alternatively, a more expensive quality. Drop everything except sprites. Remove the essence and resonance correlation., but for cyberware only.

This would essentially allow street samurai + tm characters, much in the same way adepts are street samurai + magic.

[Yerameyahu]

Wait, what? That would be cyber+sprites, so not like adepts at all. Cyber+no-sprites-techno fits, though.

[Aerospider]

This is just the basis of a freshly-formed idea, so perhaps others will see potential and build on it or else explain why it's a non-starter.

Electrokinetic Adept - 5BP

The EA is connected to and in tune with the Resonance, but lacks the brain-chemistry required for a biological node. As such, they have a Resonance attribute as per a standard technomancer (affected by Essence loss as normal) which allows them a supernatural mastery of specific programs, but they must still rely on mundane nodes and programs. They cannot possess any skills from the Tasking group, nor can they perceive or interact with Resonance entities in ways that a non-technomancer can. They are not allowed Complex Forms and cannot thread. For every point of Resonance they choose a program (which they need not possess) to receive a bonus point of Edge purely for uses of that program. This point of Edge may only be used to add dice before a roll, after a roll or be burned for a critical success. Sixes explode if rolled after expenditure. It never needs refreshing, but each use to add dice inflicts Fading damage equal to half the number of dice added (the EA May withhold dice to reduce Fading). No program may have more points than Submersions +1, but there is no limit to the number that may be used on a single roll and a single point of real Edge may also still be used. Each submersion bestows +2 dice to Fading resistance and raises the Resonance limit as normal as well as bestowing an extra point of Resonance Edge. Echoes cannot be learned. EAs have streams and may take paragons in the normal manner.

Like I say, it's not been thoroughly thought through and is not something I'm likely to employ myself, but I'd be interested to hear thoughts.
Too strong/weak?
Too expensive/cheap?
Too simple/complicated?

[LurkerOutThere]

Honestly, the whole idea is flawed. I'm as big a booster for technomancers as you will ever find but some of the whole balance act to them is they have some hellacious drawback in the meat otherwise they'd be just put Hackers and other archetypes out of the game.

As a counter thought though here is my suggestion:

Transhumanist:
5 Point Positive quality.
The technomancers natural affinity for technology has extended to the point where their biological node can internalize cyberware, taking advantage of cyber systems without affecting the technomancers resonance abilities.
For each rank in transhumanist a technomancer takes they may loose .5 points of essence to cyberware only, without reducing their resonance. This quality may be taken up to three times.

Cost might have to be higher, I would also allow an additionall three levels of this via submersion allowing a technomancer to take a maximum of 3 essence worth of ware without penalty. You'd likely have to put in some language about how if they exceed their allowance all ware they have is at full cost to avoid cheesing.