Increase Reflexs and Quickening |
Increase Reflexs and Quickening |
Aug 16 2012, 02:26 AM
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#1
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 755 Joined: 8-August 12 From: Geogia Member No.: 53,120 |
just thought I would get some opinions on the above combinations.
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Aug 16 2012, 02:37 AM
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#2
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Advocatus Diaboli Group: Members Posts: 13,994 Joined: 20-November 07 From: USA Member No.: 14,282 |
Same as with anything Quickening: depending on how the GM runs the world, you'll have trouble with wards and things.
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Aug 16 2012, 10:27 AM
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#3
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 315 Joined: 6-August 06 Member No.: 9,032 |
Plus, as soon as it gets dispelled your Karma is gone.
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Aug 16 2012, 02:11 PM
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#4
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 497 Joined: 16-April 08 From: Alexandria, VA Member No.: 15,900 |
I'm one of those who finds Quickening on a whole to be broken. And it goes back to first or second edition, when it first showed up. I view Quickening as something for NPCs villains. I would never want to burn my karma on something that could be destroyed like that. Money, sure, but not karma.
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Aug 16 2012, 02:52 PM
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#5
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Old Man Jones Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 4,415 Joined: 26-February 02 From: New York Member No.: 1,699 |
Yeah, especially since you can just use a Sustaining Focus to do the same thing.
It probably costs more Karma to bond, but that Karma doesn't go away if the spell somehow gets knocked out. -k |
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Aug 16 2012, 03:22 PM
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#6
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Target Group: Members Posts: 30 Joined: 28-July 12 Member No.: 53,092 |
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Aug 16 2012, 03:55 PM
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#7
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Runner Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,801 Joined: 2-September 09 From: Moscow, Russia Member No.: 17,589 |
I'm one of those who finds Quickening on a whole to be broken. And it goes back to first or second edition, when it first showed up. I view Quickening as something for NPCs villains. I would never want to burn my karma on something that could be destroyed like that. Money, sure, but not karma. That really depends on how much karma and money you get per run. With the rates I've been seeing, spending a bit of Karma doesn't seem all that catastrophic. |
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Aug 16 2012, 04:03 PM
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#8
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Advocatus Diaboli Group: Members Posts: 13,994 Joined: 20-November 07 From: USA Member No.: 14,282 |
:/ It does if it's just going up in smoke. Almost any amount is a problem if you're *losing* it for a temporary gain.
I've seen various Quickening 'fix' ideas. I liked the ones where it was for-real permanent: when dispelled/etc., it came back after an appropriate length of time. Depending on the suggester, this time was anything from Turns to Weeks. Personally, I'd be okay with at least a few days, but it all depends on the game. Similarly, some allowed the mage to voluntarily disable them (for wards and things), with again some 'recharge' penalty to make it fair. |
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Aug 16 2012, 04:14 PM
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#9
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Old Man Jones Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 4,415 Joined: 26-February 02 From: New York Member No.: 1,699 |
But if the foci got destroyed or rebond to someone else, you would lost the those karma and have to find a new one to bond it again. It's a lot harder for that to happen, though. With a quickened spell, you walk into a ward by accident and POP there goes the karma. -k |
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Aug 16 2012, 04:19 PM
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#10
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 248 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Note Calonna Member No.: 241 |
My biggest problem with Quickening beyond the potential karma loss is that its not subtle, unless you initiate a few times and get Masking and extended masking. If you could suppress the spell when you don't want to it would be much more valuable.
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Aug 16 2012, 04:26 PM
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#11
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 497 Joined: 16-April 08 From: Alexandria, VA Member No.: 15,900 |
:/ It does if it's just going up in smoke. Almost any amount is a problem if you're *losing* it for a temporary gain. I've seen various Quickening 'fix' ideas. I liked the ones where it was for-real permanent: when dispelled/etc., it came back after an appropriate length of time. Depending on the suggester, this time was anything from Turns to Weeks. Personally, I'd be okay with at least a few days, but it all depends on the game. Similarly, some allowed the mage to voluntarily disable them (for wards and things), with again some 'recharge' penalty to make it fair. My biggest problem with Quickening beyond the potential karma loss is that its not subtle, unless you initiate a few times and get Masking and extended masking. If you could suppress the spell when you don't want to it would be much more valuable. So...no-foci-sustaining-foci? |
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Aug 16 2012, 05:03 PM
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#12
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Runner Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,801 Joined: 2-September 09 From: Moscow, Russia Member No.: 17,589 |
:/ It does if it's just going up in smoke. Almost any amount is a problem if you're *losing* it for a temporary gain. Eh, you can easily lose money similarly, does that trouble you equally? Do you never, I don't know, buy vehicles and upgrade them - there's a fair chance for them to be stolen, after all? |
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Aug 16 2012, 05:15 PM
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#13
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 497 Joined: 16-April 08 From: Alexandria, VA Member No.: 15,900 |
Eh, you can easily lose money similarly, does that trouble you equally? Do you never, I don't know, buy vehicles and upgrade them - there's a fair chance for them to be stolen, after all? I actually specifically mentioned that in my own post. Money isn't as hard to get your hands on as karma, especially if you're the criminal equivalent of a commando. Karma, however, cannot be gained by grabbing some extra pay data or fencing any number of items you've picked up. You can negotiate better deals with your Johnson, but those dice rolls aren't going to sway your GM. |
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Aug 16 2012, 06:12 PM
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#14
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Runner Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,801 Joined: 2-September 09 From: Moscow, Russia Member No.: 17,589 |
I actually specifically mentioned that in my own post. Money isn't as hard to get your hands on as karma, especially if you're the criminal equivalent of a commando. Karma, however, cannot be gained by grabbing some extra pay data or fencing any number of items you've picked up. You can negotiate better deals with your Johnson, but those dice rolls aren't going to sway your GM. I hate to repeat myself, but I have to: that really depends on how much karma and money you get per run. Whether your GM gives you enough Karma, or lets you bargain for higher pay, or what have you, is entirely up to him. Thus, your experience (money is more easy to get than Karma) can vastly differ from mine (Karma is no less available than cash), but neither is universally true (which you seem to presume about yours).
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Aug 16 2012, 06:22 PM
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#15
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 497 Joined: 16-April 08 From: Alexandria, VA Member No.: 15,900 |
Sure, YMMV, but how about this: money is intended to be used to exchange for material goods or temporary services. With the sole exception of Quickening, karma expenditures are permanent. Yes, you can have the changes that karma buys you undone (lose stats due to a horrible injury or have your weapon focus destroyed by a villain for instance), but that is the exception, not the rule.
I don't think this debate has as much to do with GM styles as our personal view of the reward system in place. And if your GM isn't allowing you to fence various things you've liberated from their owners for additional money, you should have a talk with him or her about that. It is a standard thing since the game began for runners to make some extra cash while on the job. GMs usually love this aspect because it gives them an excuse to let the actions bite the characters in the back-end from time to time. In a game where the characters are supposed to be barely keeping their head above water, then you're not wrong, but even then I still wouldn't waste karma just because my money is hard to come by too. |
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Aug 16 2012, 06:46 PM
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#16
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Runner Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,801 Joined: 2-September 09 From: Moscow, Russia Member No.: 17,589 |
Sure, YMMV, but how about this: money is intended to be used to exchange for material goods or temporary services. With the sole exception of Quickening, karma expenditures are permanent. Yes, you can have the changes that karma buys you undone (lose stats due to a horrible injury or have your weapon focus destroyed by a villain for instance), but that is the exception, not the rule. Actually, in addition to the ways you've mentioned, there's quite a few more, the most obvious being respecializing in a skill. So Karma is in no way more permanent than money, really: with both you can buy things that stay with you, and with both you can have nice more or less temp boosts.I don't think this debate has as much to do with GM styles as our personal view of the reward system in place. And if your GM isn't allowing you to fence various things you've liberated from their owners for additional money, you should have a talk with him or her about that. It is a standard thing since the game began for runners to make some extra cash while on the job. GMs usually love this aspect because it gives them an excuse to let the actions bite the characters in the back-end from time to time. In a game where the characters are supposed to be barely keeping their head above water, then you're not wrong, but even then I still wouldn't waste karma just because my money is hard to come by too. It's strange how you assume there are only two possible ways to go about it: either money's more available than Karma, or they are both scarcely available. Besides, stealing "a little something extra" is extremely unprofessional behaviour, and leads to notoriety, ruined Johnson's plans, lack of will to hire the runners other than for brute wetwork, and runners being traced back through the buyers. While I don't think anyone explicitly bans it, it's more often than not a bad idea, and building your long-term strategy on it can only really work in pretty pink mohawk games. |
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Aug 16 2012, 07:01 PM
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#17
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 497 Joined: 16-April 08 From: Alexandria, VA Member No.: 15,900 |
Well, yeah, but I cut my teeth on first edition! I don't find it unprofessional in the least to take things off of the goon squad that came after you post-run, though I do find it highly unprofessional to take things during the core run without it being explicitly ordered to do so or otherwise green-lit by Mr. Johnson (not uncommon in wanting to cover your tracks, make it look like you were there for something else).
And yes, there is a third option: Monty Haul GMs who give liberal amounts of both karma and cash. I tend to be in that category if only because I like to see advancement and hate as a player to sit on 30-something karma and looking at saving up another 10 points to max out some attribute or what have you. Even if being given buckets full of karma, I don't find Quickening to be worth it. Its a fragile bubble that can burst without warning and without much resistance. I guess it is a little easier in 4E since karma doesn't double as Edge and Exps... Also, I have yet to see anyone respecialize, so I find that easy to overlook. |
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Aug 16 2012, 07:09 PM
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#18
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Advocatus Diaboli Group: Members Posts: 13,994 Joined: 20-November 07 From: USA Member No.: 14,282 |
Fatum, I dunno what game you're playing, but my SR vehicles do not get stolen. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) And you can steal them back. A GM that gives you enough karma that you're burning it is a GM giving too much karma.
Speed Wraith, sort of, except you have to choose the spell/Force forever. But yes, the point of Quickening has always been exactly no-foci sustaining. |
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Aug 16 2012, 08:05 PM
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#19
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,236 Joined: 27-July 10 Member No.: 18,860 |
Quickening is great for any character who is dual natured to begin with. One great example are free spirit. (Yeah, you probably have to translate all the spells into "mana-spells", but since you have no physical body you probably need to do this anyway if you want to affect yourself with it...)
And quickend spells are quite hard to destroy. It is just that most groups do not destroy or steal the foci of a mage. (Or they would go up in flames if you are hit with a fireball) Yeah, you do not quickend force 4 spells. But allready a force 8 spell has 24 dice to resist... |
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Aug 16 2012, 09:26 PM
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#20
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Target Group: Members Posts: 30 Joined: 28-July 12 Member No.: 53,092 |
So I guess the best way to protect the quickening is to quicken it with high enough force to make it near impossible to counterspell it and maybe have a quickened Detect Magic/Ward spell at all time to avoid ward while having some anti-ward spell like shattershield to deal with unavoidable ward?
Edit: Of course, if the gm really wants to kill your quickening/foci, there's really nothing that can stop them. |
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Aug 16 2012, 09:43 PM
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#21
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Old Man of the North Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 9,693 Joined: 14-August 03 From: Just north of the Centre of the Universe Member No.: 5,463 |
Quickening is great for any character who is dual natured to begin with. One great example are free spirit. (Yeah, you probably have to translate all the spells into "mana-spells", but since you have no physical body you probably need to do this anyway if you want to affect yourself with it...) Free spirits do have a physical body when they are Materialized, or Possess a vessel. The problem with Quickening for FS characters is that most spells you want to Quicken are physical spells, and don't carry into the astral when the FS wants to use one of its most powerful tools, the ability to nearly "teleport" just about anywhere.QUOTE And quickend spells are quite hard to destroy. It is just that most groups do not destroy or steal the foci of a mage. (Or they would go up in flames if you are hit with a fireball) Yeah, you do not quickend force 4 spells. But allready a force 8 spell has 24 dice to resist... Yes, one of the advantages of Quickening over foci is that one can Quicken a spell of any Force, whereas a focus limits the Force of the spell to its own Force. So I guess the best way to protect the quickening is to quicken it with high enough force to make it near impossible to counterspell it and maybe have a quickened Detect Magic/Ward spell at all time to avoid ward while having some anti-ward spell like shattershield to deal with unavoidable ward? Any astral awareness provides some of this detection already.QUOTE Edit: Of course, if the gm really wants to kill your quickening/foci, there's really nothing that can stop them. One can replace "quickening/focus" with "PC" in this statement. Hopefully, the GM is not in competition with the PCs. |
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Aug 17 2012, 05:47 AM
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#22
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,236 Joined: 27-July 10 Member No.: 18,860 |
Free spirits do have a physical body when they are Materialized, or Possess a vessel. The problem with Quickening for FS characters is that most spells you want to Quicken are physical spells, and don't carry into the astral when the FS wants to use one of its most powerful tools, the ability to nearly "teleport" just about anywhere. Like I said, use the rules in Streetmagic to make them mana spells. And at least for materialized spirits it is questionable if physical "buff" spells do work. They still consist of mana. And to manipulate mana you need mana-spells.... (Anyhow: You can make nearly all "health-spells" mana-based without braking any rule... (And it would stop the theoretical possibility to cast them on drones...) And to make it even worse: It is not even said, that physical spells do not carry over to the astral plane. They can't be cast on the astral plane, true. QUOTE Yes, one of the advantages of Quickening over foci is that one can Quicken a spell of any Force, whereas a focus limits the Force of the spell to its own Force. And it does not count against the limit of bound foci. |
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Aug 17 2012, 12:22 PM
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#23
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,700 Joined: 1-July 10 Member No.: 18,778 |
Eh, you can easily lose money similarly, does that trouble you equally? Do you never, I don't know, buy vehicles and upgrade them - there's a fair chance for them to be stolen, after all? It's more like I don't buy vehicles made out of delicate, fragile, and enormously expensive glass that will shatter into a thousand pieces if I ever run a red light. |
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Aug 17 2012, 02:30 PM
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#24
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Runner Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,801 Joined: 2-September 09 From: Moscow, Russia Member No.: 17,589 |
It's more like I don't buy vehicles made out of delicate, fragile, and enormously expensive glass that will shatter into a thousand pieces if I ever run a red light. You realize destroying any vehicle takes about as much GM effort (one event, one turn) and corp money as destroying a quickened spell? |
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Aug 17 2012, 03:29 PM
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#25
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Old Man Jones Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 4,415 Joined: 26-February 02 From: New York Member No.: 1,699 |
The point is, while it is possible for a runner to have a focus lost, stolen, or destroyed, the frequency of that happening is GOING to be FAR less than the same runner walking into a ward or other magic barrier.
By the 2070s wards are all over the damn place. -k |
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