IPB

Welcome Guest ( Log In | Register )

 
Reply to this topicStart new topic
> A couple of practical magic related questions...
Kyrel
post Aug 20 2012, 09:48 PM
Post #1


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 271
Joined: 1-September 09
From: Denmark
Member No.: 17,583



Guys, I have a couple of questions I hope you can help me with.

1) My Mystic Adept forced her way through a magical Barrier during a recent run. Should I expect the mage behind said Barrier spell to be able to track me down?

2) On the same run, in the same place, my Mystic Adept broke a "Geas" type spell placed on a Naga, in order to keep it guarding the stuff behind the aforementioned Barrier. Should I expect the "owning" mage to be able to track me down based on this action.

3) Would it be possible to track down a Foci that has been stolen through magical means?

I suspect that the answer to these questions are somewhere in one of the rulebooks, but I'll be damned if I can find the right place at the moment.


/Kyrel
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Blastula
post Aug 20 2012, 10:07 PM
Post #2


Target
*

Group: Members
Posts: 64
Joined: 21-August 09
Member No.: 17,527



Pretty sure the answers are as follows:

1) The mage that created the barrier would definitely know it was penetrated unless you spoofed your aura to match it. As for tracking you from that, only if they investigated the breach astrally could they follow you.

2) As with the barrier, the mage would know that the spell effect had been broken, but unless they were there physically/astrally they would not know who had broken it.

3) If the focus or foci in question were bound to the mage, then he would be able to track them down astrally for sure and maybe physically with the right spells.


Not sure where the specific answers are, but I'm pretty sure that I've more or less got it right.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Draco18s
post Aug 20 2012, 10:50 PM
Post #3


Immortal Elf
**********

Group: Members
Posts: 10,289
Joined: 2-October 08
Member No.: 16,392



On point 1: the mage would know instantly when it happened and would--if not otherwise busy--be able to astrally project and find the PC at the time.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Falconer
post Aug 21 2012, 01:23 AM
Post #4


Neophyte Runner
*****

Group: Validating
Posts: 2,283
Joined: 12-October 07
Member No.: 13,662



1. It alerts the wards creator (not a barrier, ward, unless it's an anchored spell which would truly be uncommon). He can come and investigate or send a spirit to investigate. Other than that he has no idea.

2. The act of dispelling does not leave your signature.

3. So long as the focus is still bound, then yes for certain. The search power is a bit vague though... the focus has it's own magical signature as well... and it might be possible to hunt that down as well in it's own right depending on the GM.


If you cast any other spells... you probably left your spell signature behind if you didn't bother to clean it up. If the mage or one of his spirits comes by soon enough afterwards they can read the signature to identify you and try to track you down.

Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
shinyjam
post Aug 21 2012, 04:25 AM
Post #5


Target
*

Group: Members
Posts: 30
Joined: 28-July 12
Member No.: 53,092



QUOTE (Falconer @ Aug 21 2012, 01:23 AM) *
you probably left your spell signature behind if you didn't bother to clean it up. If the mage or one of his spirits comes by soon enough afterwards they can read the signature to identify you and try to track you down.

From memory, the spell signature last for Force X Hour.

Erasing an astral signature (SR4a p. 179, require astral perception) just need a number of complex action equal to the force, which is basically like 30 seconds to wipe away a force 10 spell. So there's no reason not to always wipe your spell signature.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
blaze2050
post Aug 21 2012, 05:02 AM
Post #6


Target
*

Group: Members
Posts: 35
Joined: 22-July 12
Member No.: 53,075



I also think a mage would find your signature, if you didn't clean up.
But notice that signature != tracking . By having assensed your signature he can only recognize you and your work. He cannot astrally track you in the sense of Astral Tracking on page 193.
He might shoot a picture of your astral signature and give it to his colleagues, but that is very, very difficult (5 hits with Perception + Assensing, page 67 Arsenal; Quicksilver Mana Sensitive Film). Such a picture might also count as a symbolic link for rituals, but to use it you must have the Sympathetic Link Metamagic.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
kzt
post Aug 21 2012, 05:11 AM
Post #7


Great Dragon
*********

Group: Members
Posts: 5,537
Joined: 27-August 06
From: Albuquerque NM
Member No.: 9,234



QUOTE (blaze2050 @ Aug 20 2012, 11:02 PM) *
Such a picture might also count as a symbolic link for rituals, but to use it you must have the Sympathetic Link Metamagic.

If people bother to use symbolic ritual magic to track you the odds are really good that they can effectively use it. It's also very likely that this won't end in a way that the player would like. A bunch of talented magicians need to work together and spend a fair bit of time and likely take some damage to use it. So you have clearly managed to seriously annoy the wrong people.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
blaze2050
post Aug 21 2012, 06:14 AM
Post #8


Target
*

Group: Members
Posts: 35
Joined: 22-July 12
Member No.: 53,075



Well, yes, to invest this kind of magical manpower the suspect must have done something big.

Just to get the guy who can reliably shoot these pictures would be difficult. How many people have 15 dice in Perception + Assensing to get these 5 hits?
If you can count specialities in both skills you can have somebody who specialized in Perception (astral photography) and in Assensing (astral photography) and then he would "only" have to have Perception 6 and Assensing 5 or vice versa.

Might be an interesting job for nearly burned-out mages with Perception enhancing 'ware.
But I digress.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Tymeaus Jalynsfe...
post Aug 21 2012, 01:55 PM
Post #9


Prime Runner Ascendant
**********

Group: Members
Posts: 17,568
Joined: 26-March 09
From: Aurora, Colorado
Member No.: 17,022



QUOTE (blaze2050 @ Aug 21 2012, 12:14 AM) *
Well, yes, to invest this kind of magical manpower the suspect must have done something big.

Just to get the guy who can reliably shoot these pictures would be difficult. How many people have 15 dice in Perception + Assensing to get these 5 hits?
If you can count specialities in both skills you can have somebody who specialized in Perception (astral photography) and in Assensing (astral photography) and then he would "only" have to have Perception 6 and Assensing 5 or vice versa.

Might be an interesting job for nearly burned-out mages with Perception enhancing 'ware.
But I digress.


I have a Forensics Mage that can reliably shoot Astral Images. Interesting CHaracter. He is definitely more of an investigator type, though. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Bearclaw
post Aug 21 2012, 07:01 PM
Post #10


Shooting Target
****

Group: Members
Posts: 1,632
Joined: 26-February 02
From: Portland Oregon, USA
Member No.: 1,304



QUOTE (blaze2050 @ Aug 20 2012, 10:02 PM) *
I also think a mage would find your signature, if you didn't clean up.
But notice that signature != tracking . By having assensed your signature he can only recognize you and your work. He cannot astrally track you in the sense of Astral Tracking on page 193.
He might shoot a picture of your astral signature and give it to his colleagues, but that is very, very difficult (5 hits with Perception + Assensing, page 67 Arsenal; Quicksilver Mana Sensitive Film). Such a picture might also count as a symbolic link for rituals, but to use it you must have the Sympathetic Link Metamagic.


I was under the impression that the whole reason you cleaned up your magical signature was because it could be used to astrally track you. Your astral signature has to be at least as useful as having seen your face for astral tracking, right?
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Falconer
post Aug 22 2012, 12:32 AM
Post #11


Neophyte Runner
*****

Group: Validating
Posts: 2,283
Joined: 12-October 07
Member No.: 13,662



QUOTE (shinyjam @ Aug 20 2012, 11:25 PM) *
From memory, the spell signature last for Force X Hour.

Erasing an astral signature (SR4a p. 179, require astral perception) just need a number of complex action equal to the force, which is basically like 30 seconds to wipe away a force 10 spell. So there's no reason not to always wipe your spell signature.


Yes you were in a fight which went for 2-3 combat turns... you left how many astral signatures.

Your GM is not going to give you minutes of free time to clean up your signatures?!

Very nice GM... with HTR and/or the star on the way. Or the security spider is bringing building security online and you need to rush things along.


Sorry this argument is one completely situation dependent on the GM being lax with the players and allowing tons of times between encounters. You better not cast any spells to cover your retreat because you'll have no time to scrub either! Unless you have invested in metamagics it's going to take a substantial amount of time in SR turns to clean things up. All I take this to mean is the GM is not adequately pressing the players.




On to the last bit:
The search power... "The being may seek any person, place, or object. To find the target, the creature makes a... test. The critter must have seen what it is searching for before; spirits may search out anything that their summoner provides them with a mental image of."

At the very least they have your magical 'fingerprint'. It can be used to ID you and your team later or in a court of law.

So yes the focus can most definitely be searched for provided the spirit or mage has seen it's aura before (highly likely if he's the one who put it there, even if he unbound the focus after it was stolen so it couldnt' be used as a ritual link against him).

Some GM's consider magical constructs like spell signatures astral objects. And also allow them to be searched out... in this case... they might search for wards with your fingerprints or search for other copies of your spell signature to find other places you've been.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Dakka Dakka
post Aug 22 2012, 04:25 AM
Post #12


Prime Runner
*******

Group: Members
Posts: 3,507
Joined: 11-November 08
Member No.: 16,582



QUOTE (shinyjam @ Aug 21 2012, 06:25 AM) *
Erasing an astral signature (SR4a p. 179, require astral perception) just need a number of complex action equal to the force, which is basically like 30 seconds to wipe away a force 10 spell. So there's no reason not to always wipe your spell signature.
It's per Complex Action, so with enough IPs you could divide that time by 4. Signatures on yourself or your team mates would probably not have to be scrubbed right away.

QUOTE (Bearclaw @ Aug 21 2012, 09:01 PM) *
I was under the impression that the whole reason you cleaned up your magical signature was because it could be used to astrally track you. Your astral signature has to be at least as useful as having seen your face for astral tracking, right?
No, It's as useful as having seen your fingerprint. Now try to pick out a fingerprint from a crowd.

QUOTE (Falconer @ Aug 22 2012, 02:32 AM) *
At the very least they have your magical 'fingerprint'. It can be used to ID you and your team later or in a court of law.
At least in the successor states of the USA, there still is the 5th amendment. Fingerprints can be taken. To compare signatures the accused would have to cast a spell.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
blaze2050
post Aug 22 2012, 05:38 AM
Post #13


Target
*

Group: Members
Posts: 35
Joined: 22-July 12
Member No.: 53,075



The mage who has assensed the signature you have left can recognize you and your signature you left at other places. Nothing more. As far as I know he can't make a drawing of your signature and give to somebody else (well, he can, but it won't be useful), so only this one mage can identify you and your work.

The only thing you can do, is shooting a picture with the mana sensitive camera from Arsenal page 67. But this is very, very difficult (5 hits with Assensing + Perception) and you must have the camera available within hours else the signature has vanished.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
kzt
post Aug 22 2012, 05:41 AM
Post #14


Great Dragon
*********

Group: Members
Posts: 5,537
Joined: 27-August 06
From: Albuquerque NM
Member No.: 9,234



In theory you could just summon a spirit and assign it to erase all the signatures it can find at your crime scene while you run.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Midas
post Aug 22 2012, 05:48 AM
Post #15


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 662
Joined: 25-May 11
Member No.: 30,406



QUOTE (blaze2050 @ Aug 21 2012, 06:14 AM) *
Well, yes, to invest this kind of magical manpower the suspect must have done something big.

Just to get the guy who can reliably shoot these pictures would be difficult. How many people have 15 dice in Perception + Assensing to get these 5 hits?
If you can count specialities in both skills you can have somebody who specialized in Perception (astral photography) and in Assensing (astral photography) and then he would "only" have to have Perception 6 and Assensing 5 or vice versa.

I think Perception (Astral) would be fine for astral photography, but YMMV. Yes, you would need a specialist, but it could easily be argued that the larger corps would have such an asset, or could hire one if they didn't. Given that unscrubbed signatures tend to last for hours and astral travel is so fast, the guy could get from halfway around the world in time to astrally photograph a spell signature at a crime scene/compromised corp facility.

As noted, having someone's astral signature doesn't necessarily mean you can track them, but the record is there and the corp might start getting real interested if your signature starts cropping up at other facilities owned by that corp for instance. Same would go for the police who would definitely have one or more astral forensics specialists on their books.

QUOTE (Dakka Dakka @ Aug 22 2012, 04:25 AM) *
No, It's as useful as having seen your fingerprint. Now try to pick out a fingerprint from a crowd.
At least in the successor states of the USA, there still is the 5th amendment. Fingerprints can be taken. To compare signatures the accused would have to cast a spell.

Yes, they have your astral "fingerprint" on their database, and unless you have a SIN or Criminal SIN they won't be able to track you down from that right away. Just as well, as Falconer pointed out leaving your signature behind might be unavoidable if you have to leave in a hurry. But it is evidence left behind, and one day it just might come back to haunt you ...
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
blaze2050
post Aug 22 2012, 05:53 AM
Post #16


Target
*

Group: Members
Posts: 35
Joined: 22-July 12
Member No.: 53,075



Edit: Sorry, just saw that I had repeated myself, so I deleted the first paragraph.

Depending how powerful you want your Search power to be, you can use the mental image of the signature for searching.
If you do so, is having seen a photo of a target also enough to Search a target?
I'm just asking. It makes shadowrunning nearly impossible, but it is of course one of the possible interpretations of the vague wording of the Search power.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
kzt
post Aug 22 2012, 06:10 AM
Post #17


Great Dragon
*********

Group: Members
Posts: 5,537
Joined: 27-August 06
From: Albuquerque NM
Member No.: 9,234



Magic is the "I win" button in SR. Nerfing mages and spirits in some fashion and to varying degrees is a fairly common practice.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
shinyjam
post Aug 22 2012, 02:59 PM
Post #18


Target
*

Group: Members
Posts: 30
Joined: 28-July 12
Member No.: 53,092



QUOTE (Falconer @ Aug 22 2012, 01:32 AM) *
Yes you were in a fight which went for 2-3 combat turns... you left how many astral signatures.

Your GM is not going to give you minutes of free time to clean up your signatures?!

Ehh, I don't think I say anything about using it in combat. The point of wiping signature is for stealth and zero trace, so getting into combat or being seen is already too late since the enemy already know your face or enemy mage has memorize your signature unless you kill them, which present another problem.

Edit: I am using time unit to explain how fast it is so everyone should do it when they can.
Edit 2: Well I guess that does sounds like using in combat too, so it's a misunderstanding.
Edit 3: Or brainwash them instead of killing them.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Dakka Dakka
post Aug 22 2012, 03:45 PM
Post #19


Prime Runner
*******

Group: Members
Posts: 3,507
Joined: 11-November 08
Member No.: 16,582



QUOTE (shinyjam @ Aug 22 2012, 04:59 PM) *
Ehh, I don't think I say anything about using it in combat. The point of wiping signature is for stealth and zero trace, so getting into combat or being seen is already too late since the enemy already know your face or enemy mage has memorize your signature unless you kill them, which present another problem.
What? Your team is not using face masks, spells and regular cosmetic surgery, flexible signature/flux and masking?
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
shinyjam
post Aug 22 2012, 04:03 PM
Post #20


Target
*

Group: Members
Posts: 30
Joined: 28-July 12
Member No.: 53,092



QUOTE (Dakka Dakka @ Aug 22 2012, 04:45 PM) *
What? Your team is not using face masks, spells and regular cosmetic surgery, flexible signature/flux and masking?

Actually, no, not many players I know do those things before a mission. Probably because we are not veteran (Still haven't find a game that last more than 5 session, not far enough to get out of easy mode mission) or we didn't do enough damage that people would want to ritual track us for revenge. Hell, we don't even have c-squared to clean the blood from battle.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post

Reply to this topicStart new topic

 



RSS Lo-Fi Version Time is now: 20th June 2024 - 08:49 AM

Topps, Inc has sole ownership of the names, logo, artwork, marks, photographs, sounds, audio, video and/or any proprietary material used in connection with the game Shadowrun. Topps, Inc has granted permission to the Dumpshock Forums to use such names, logos, artwork, marks and/or any proprietary materials for promotional and informational purposes on its website but does not endorse, and is not affiliated with the Dumpshock Forums in any official capacity whatsoever.