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> Military vehicles vs anti-vehicle weapons, Delicious, delicious paydata
Fatum
post Aug 24 2012, 03:06 PM
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>So chummers, there's been some interest as to the potency of modern-day anti-vehicle guns against the armoured vehicles of today. So I got into a certain General Staff node and got you this report:
>Fatum


>Accessing document...
>Standard GS-GOST-71 encryption found, decrypting...
>Decrypted, analyzing... Russian text (military jargon) found.
>Translated and adapted.

Report GS-74/1438: Weapon tests in Dmitrov testing area.

Summary
This document describes the results of weapon efficiency tests performed throughout 2073 in Dmitrov testing area.
The range of weapons tested covers everything from infantry support weapons to ship main guns.
The range of armour tested covers everything from infantry body armour to heavy tanks, but excludes naval vessels.
EVO LifeLike-18 mannequins were used to simulate infantry armour users, mannequin parameters used equivalent to that needed to use infantry armour without encumbrance.
Acquisition methods and sources of the equipment tested are beyond the scope of this report.

Methodology
Each armour piece was fired upon with each weapon type in two series of tests, first from a stationary position at the center of frontal projection, then from the most effective angle at the most vulnerable point by expert estimations.
Life ammo tests were complemented with VR simulations to estimate the precision required to penetrate each armour piece with each weapon type.

Detailed account
>I took it upon myself to separate this five-thousand line text into a file of its own. Here it is in proprietary format and transcoded to freely available one with slight bugs.
>Fatum


Conclusions
Infantry weapons
Automatic weapons tested have proven incapable of penetrating even lightly armoured targets other than using anti-vehicular rounds, which are prohibitively expensive for a massed force such as the Red Army.
The minigun tested has proved especially inadequate, showing subpar performance against armoured targets even with AV rounds used; minigun development or acquisition is thus estimated as undesirable.
On the contrary, the anti-matériel rifle tested has shown itself to be capable on par with an assault cannon, when used with AV rounds; it is thus recommendable to acquire large-bore sniper rifles for infantry divisions' designated marksmen, or develop a similar system based on Dragunov Drake sniper rifle family. [Ref - GS-74/1562: Drake-3 development project]
The assault cannon tested has shown inadequate penetration capabilities using standard or anti-vehicular shells, showing worse results than the anti-matériel rifle in several tests. Anti-tank shells compensate for that inadequacy, correcting both armour piercing and damage capabilities, and proving assault cannons a weapon effective against both armoured vehicles up to medium tanks and armoured CAS craft such as LAVs.
The gauss rifle tested has expectedly shown itself a capable and versatile weapon, offering the infantry a powerful tool against all but the heavy armoured targets. [Ref - GS-74/1549: Ares Vigorous and Ares Thunderstruck supply contracts]
Heavy infantry lasers have shown only marginally worse results, while rifle-sized weapons of the class do not appear to possess the advertised armour-piercing potency, performing even worse in that area than backpack flamer units.
Of the grenades tested, the white phosphorous ones were demonstrated to be capable of damaging or destroying lightly armoured vehicles, while the rest of the stock had obvious problems with modern combat vehicles.
Anti-tank rockets have performed admirably in the tests, penetrating all but the heaviest armour pieces. Acquiring them in bulk for battalion-level AT teams is advisable. [Ref - GS-74/1683: "Next Generation" RPG AT shots]

Vehicle weapons
Direct-fire vehicle artillery using chemical propellants has proven itself completely inadequate against current generation of armoured vehicles.
Of the direct-fire vehicle weapons, only the gauss cannon has been shown to be truly a universal weapon capable of penetrating all kinds of combat vehicles. Laser weapons' performance has been especially underwhelming. Gauss cannons can be recommended for adoption as soon as possible, despite the prohibitive costs involved. Laser weapons can only be considered for adoption on light armour. [Ref - GS-74/2457: 2074 Main Gauss Cannon Contest]
Indirect-fire artillery has once again been proved the Queen of Battlefield, penetrating all kinds of armour pieces with ease. Converting a certain number of previous generation light and main battle tanks into self-propelled howitzers can be advisable. [Ref - GS-74/1909: Nizhniy Tagil plant refit orders for 2074]
Launch weapons have been shown effective, both as anti-tank and anti-aircraft weaponry. However, no missile type capable of penetrating SOTA MBTs is known to exist, except for heavy cruise and anti-ship missiles. The alleged costs of SOTA MBTs being comparable to those of navy vessels make using those heavy weapons against them justified, which leads to the necessity of developing ground-based launch platforms and shorter-ranged models. [Ref - GS-74/2196: YNT ultra-heavy rocket artillery project]

Army tactics
The new generation of armoured vehicles necessitates rapid rearmament of the Red Army, as well of the rest of the Armed Forces, with weapons of vastly improved armour penetrating ability. Until then, infantry remains barely protected against attacks of heavier armour, while its traditionally armed armour support stays ineffective against that kind of opponent. [Ref - GS-74/3891: General Staff combined arms doctrine developments]

Testing team commander: Major Vikhr.

>And that's what they had there. Of course, I also got the documents they're referencing in the report. If you want them, I'm willing to sell.
>Fatum

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Mäx
post Aug 24 2012, 04:59 PM
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>It seems that either they didn't have the new MTR anti-tank missiles from Ares or their tester didn't know where to target the MBT:s to cause maximum damage
>Sasha Firehair
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Fatum
post Aug 24 2012, 05:19 PM
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>Looks like they didn't - minding the time it usually takes for the Russian bureaucracy to turn its wheels, they had most likely conducted the tests before the missile hit the market. Not that it'd perform all that different from Espirit Poignard, anyway.
>Fatum
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Mäx
post Aug 24 2012, 06:29 PM
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>Probably not, haven't seen those ones in action. This leaves us with my the second option for their flawed conclusion about AT missiles.
>Sasha Firehair
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Marwynn
post Aug 24 2012, 06:29 PM
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>Not all of those "simulated infantry" were mannequins. Half of those "LifeLike-18s" were SINless metas; orks and trolls from what I could tell. Mind-controlled, drugged, whatever they apparently stood there and took the hits. Got a copy of the trid, if anyone wants a look. 'Live fire' takes on a whole new meaning... Still, seeing what the Thunderstruck could do to a fully armoured troll is good marketing material.
> Nadir
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Fatum
post Aug 24 2012, 07:03 PM
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>Have you seen the Stonewall in action? I'm not even sure how they punched through it with cruise missiles.
As for the mannequins - the things cost a lot more than a few SINless, Vikhr must have made quite a profit on side-selling them. And his results are pure bullshit, anyway.
>Fatum
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Mäx
post Aug 24 2012, 07:25 PM
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>I have seen few vids, the ridiculous amount of smart armor they layered on those make them quite nasty customers, but luckily you can peel away the layers with cheaper weapon before busting them wide open with a MTR or Poignard(i assume from the data i managed to get my hand on after you mentioned them, still haven't seen them on action). Still if i never see a second Stonewall, it's still too soon.
>Sasha Firehair
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Fatum
post Aug 24 2012, 07:31 PM
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>When I see flying CAS tanks that are as fast as LAVs and pretty much immune to damage, I start wondering if they remember the Alamo.
And if it's in fact too late for Aztlan.
>Fatum
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Mäx
post Aug 24 2012, 07:52 PM
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>I wouldn't count Aztlan out yet, from what i have heard their Cuanmitztlis are pretty much just as beefy and can easily carry enought firepower to turn those Stonewalls to smoking wrecks.
Also i have heard some rumors about Aztlan army retrofitting some of those nifty Paynals they have with heavy duty weapons, to be used as dedicated tank hunters.
>Sasha Firehair
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Marwynn
post Aug 24 2012, 08:09 PM
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>Those LifeLike-18s have "total mobility" don't they? Yeah, I think I know where they went.
I still haven't seen much of CAS' anti-magic strategy, and Aztlan's certainly going to be escorting their own 'birds with as much Spirit-support as they can.
Any ideas on what the CAS troopers are going to be lugging around? With Ares' still reeling from that whole Excalibur stuff, I think they might be get a good deal on some new gauss weapons. Which means we may get even better deals.
> Nadir
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Fatum
post Aug 24 2012, 08:09 PM
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>I'd say Cuanmitztlis have poor chances against Stonewalls or Longstreets unless there's someone down in the front ranks who'd perform field upgrades, adding some smart armor to them. I have no idea why the azzies haven't done it yet, are they short on explosives or what?
Ha, I'd like to see a test of spirits against current generation heavy tanks. I wonder if there's anything they can do to the vehicles.
>Fatum
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Mäx
post Aug 24 2012, 08:22 PM
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>Well killing the crew is usually quite an effective trick, also i have understood that some of them can cause accident to happen witch could be useful too.
>Sasha Firehair
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Fatum
post Aug 24 2012, 08:36 PM
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>You have to wonder if the boys in green have something to prevent spirits from materializing inside vehicles. Maybe some kind of those ward things, or some soft foam to fill the free space up, or something else.
>Fatum
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Udoshi
post Aug 24 2012, 11:16 PM
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> I've recently come across some specs for astral wardings built into right into the main cabin and body of the tank. When Ares marketing bragged that nothing short of a Thor would rattle a stonewall, someone in one of their mystical departments figured it would make a pretty sturdy centerpoint for a barrier. Turns out they were right.
>Teddy Bear
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Warlordtheft
post Aug 24 2012, 11:34 PM
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>Typically it is FAB II, they keep the crew compartment encased in Fab panels. There is also a nutrient feeding system on board as well. Not much better than wards since they can still be attacked in astral. They'd sooner have the company level mage counter spelling or taking it to the enemy, than upkeeping 17 or so small wards. Side benefit is that the FAB panels also provide another medium for the spalling to go through when hit. The worst spell in my book is a well placed trid phantasm, but a well placed power bolt is pretty nasty too. When magic is involved it become a rock paper scissors kind of thing, but the drain involved when dealing with vehicles can and will cause your mage to pass out.

>Mosby
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Umidori
post Aug 25 2012, 06:15 AM
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>rusos putos| still see guerra in terms of rolling tanks and open hills| la pirámide learned a long time ago that even us dirty changos can find ways into their tin cans| just gotta be creative/ cabrones|
>hueso
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Marwynn
post Aug 25 2012, 12:39 PM
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> I think you're both right. Did a quick astral flyover a certain CAS base near Denver, and though I couldn't get close enough the Stonewalls for any length of time, the Spirits I sent in couldn't get through inside. One reported a powerful ward, the others said it a glowing wall wouldn't let them through. Looked an awful lot like an astral barrier, but not quite.
Unless I asked them to break in, that is, in which case the FAB II panels would last all of a nanotick. I think it's there to provide some anti-spell support for now, all those CAS mages must be getting tired keeping up so many Wards. Could be stronger FAB II panels would replace these ones, or the ones I ran into didn't have a nutrient system to keep the FAB II "alive". Or they're getting damaged some other way.
That said, I saw a bit of a hole in their astral and physical security. Anyone near Denver looking to stock up on CAS toys? Message me.
> Nadir
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Udoshi
post Aug 25 2012, 05:02 PM
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> The nutrient system isn't just there to keep the FAB alive - its a monitoring system. Its not designed to prevent an incursion, but to detect it and report ones it can't stop. A sort of early warning system with a hotline to your own mage support through the tank's tactical network. My guess is the tanks without a barrier simply weren't enchanted yet. The two systems are compatible, but setting up and maintaining wards like that takes time and effort. Magic still remains something the corps can't just throw money at and get instant results off a production line.
> Teddy Bear
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Warlordtheft
post Aug 27 2012, 08:52 PM
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>Also, those stonewalls in Denver, they weren't on full alert were they? When not in an active combat zone or on high alert they tend to keep the FABII levels to a minimum to save money. Might explain the weakness you encountered. Usually the command tank where the mage is is warded. Simplifies CINC when the mage goes astral. Also rumor has it the Amazonians got a few surplus Stonewalls and are causing havoc as light raiders. The Amazonian ones are shorter duration as they run on bio-fuel rather than petrochem. They also are a patchwork of sorts being jury rigged by their crews who have to deal with supply issues.They dropped the FABII and use wards exclusively, mages being easier to find in the jungles than the nutrients.

Nadir, I might know of interested parties in such Toys. PM me.

>Mosby
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Fatum
post Aug 28 2012, 04:55 PM
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>Stonewalls in Amazonia? I'm not buying it. Each one costs more than the entirety of Manaus!
>Fatum
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Marwynn
post Aug 28 2012, 05:06 PM
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>PM sent Mosby. Last call, everyone. We're good to go but I don't want to leave anyone out.
Wiz paydata, by the way Fatum. Helped finalize the "shopping list". Want me to pick you up something? I can have a Spirit deliver it somewhere discreetly.
Don't know much about military vehicles, I plan to stay away from them as much as possible. I figure these "surplus" Stonewalls were more-or-less donations to keep the pyramid busy.
> Nadir
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Warlordtheft
post Aug 28 2012, 06:52 PM
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>Fatum, maybe its just a modified dodge scoot I am roving around jungles in then... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smokin.gif)

>Mosby
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Umidori
post Aug 28 2012, 08:30 PM
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>what use would las serpientes have for stonewalls¿?| ever try to hover through la selva¿?| could patrol over los ríos/ but you gonna ride la verde you take something with cahones| you knock the trees to the ground/ not the other way around|
>hueso
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kigmatzomat
post Aug 29 2012, 02:35 AM
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> Killing any MBT is incredibly hard. Fortunately they have a dirty little secret: they are incredibly easy to starve to death. They don't drink fuel, they guzzle it like an entire squadron of supersonic fighters. When at altitudes above ground-effect (maybe 10-20 meters), they're burning something like 1kg of fuel every hour for every 2 kg the MBT weighs. Yeah, that means their fuel tanks wind up being a huge percentage of the internal volume & total mass. That's why they stay low; ground-effect increases their fuel efficiency by several times.
> So don't bother to shoot an MBT; shoot it's fuel supply.
> If you have to fight an MBT, bury a couple monstrous "mines"; if you can get them to fly above ground effect they'll have to cut their mission short and maybe they won't be able to chase everyone down.

>Logistic AL
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Umidori
post Aug 29 2012, 03:03 AM
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>see/ this hombre has his head on right| big bads build their toys for direct confrontation| so/ _¡qué sencillo! _ don*t confront them directly| atrición/ atrición/ atrición| every bullet they shoot/ every drop of fuel they burn/ every lightbulb they have to replace *cuz you chucked a well placed rock costs them scrun} and every corp tallies the garbanzos| finalmente/ someone somewhere decides the cost is too high/ y entonces things change|
>hueso
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