USS Missouri, Where is it in 2072? Options

[CanRay]

The real question is, why would you want too. They are obsolete in our time, much less 2072.

Obsolete doesn't mean useless or worthless.

The Alamo is obsolete in our time, but it's still an important symbol if nothing else.

[Halinn]

OK, that would work...I just don't think the idea of some patriotic letter-writing campaign swaying the lawmakers' opinion fits well into a cyberpunk universe.

It's the public appearance of it. The lawmakers' opinions are swayed by 'campaign contributions' and the like, and this decision would be part of corp war. Corp A wants the ship destroyed. Corp B does or does not know why, but wants to prevent it in any case, just to be sure. Work the lawmakers that they've bought, and provide them with an argument to sway the public. The person giving the job of delaying Corp A, should he be a regular citizen instead of a company man, could easily think that it's about patriotism and the like.

[KarmaInferno]

Obsolete doesn't mean useless or worthless.

The Alamo is obsolete in our time, but it's still an important symbol if nothing else.

Perhaps it can be rebuilt into a spacefaring battlecruiser.

With a gigantic cannon at the prow.




-k

[TeknoDragon]

Perhaps it can be rebuilt into a spacefaring battlecruiser.

With a gigantic cannon at the prow.

-k

Ah, a Tom Kratman fan?

[StealthSigma]

After re-reading Paradise Lost lately, I've noticed (of course, the book is way older than the Missouri lying in Pearl Harbour) that the USS Missouri isn't mentioned.
As I really like the idea of doing an adventure related to this venerable battleship, I've thought about what might have happened to it.
Basically, I have two possible scenarios:

1.) It's still lying in Pearl Harbour, a prize of the conflict where the Kingdom of Hawai'i gained 'independence' from the UCAS.
2.) It was towed back to the Puget Sound, where it lay earlier, given back after diplomatic negotiations.

What do you think?
Any other possible scenarios where it wasn't destroyed? Stolen by Japan, maybe? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
Also, does anyone know if canon material exists anywhere?

Sanity would dictate that it's still in Hawaii. I'd question the seaworthiness of the Iowas for anything more than coastal travel and by the times we're talking about I don't think the Missouri would be easy to tow from Hawaii to Washington. That's of course assuming they didn't get sold for scrap.

--

Time to watch Battleship again. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/twirl.gif)

Time to watch Under Siege again. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/twirl.gif)

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Hu? The Missouri was never sunk or even damaged a lot. Do you mean one of the battleships sunk at Pearl Harbor? The Arizona perhaps?

It wouldn't be the Arizona if you're talking about cutting the hull to get people out. It would have been the Utah or Oklahoma since those two capsized.

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Perhaps it can be rebuilt into a spacefaring battlecruiser.

With a gigantic cannon at the prow.

Only the Japanese have the technology.

[bannockburn]

It wouldn't be the Arizona if you're talking about cutting the hull to get people out. It would have been the Utah or Oklahoma since those two capsized.

Apologies (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) I'm not an American so this was just world history off the top of my head. I just remembered the memorial (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[LurkerOutThere]

Obsolete doesn't mean useless or worthless.

The Alamo is obsolete in our time, but it's still an important symbol if nothing else.

This is a nation that gave up half of it's actual territory, they don't give a devil rats hoop about a ship from a war that's likely not even taught in school anymore.

[Sengir]

The person giving the job of delaying Corp A, should he be a regular citizen instead of a company man, could easily think that it's about patriotism and the like.

Patriotism probably went down the drain along with the concept of nation states (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[Halinn]

Patriotism probably went down the drain along with the concept of nation states (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

I'm sure the extraterritorial corps make sure to instill some nationalism in their citizens (or should that be corporatism?). Being the useful tool it is, I don't see why any country wouldn't try to get the lowly citizens to feel patriotic either.

[CanRay]

I'm sure the extraterritorial corps make sure to instill some nationalism in their citizens (or should that be corporatism?). Being the useful tool it is, I don't see why any country wouldn't try to get the lowly citizens to feel patriotic either.

Ares, at the very least, uses patriotism as a marketing angle.

[bannockburn]

So, no suggestions as to her location, apart from StealthSigma's and mine? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Thanks for the discussion though, gave me a lot of food for thought.
Now to get cracking. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/ork.gif)

[Andrew]

If the location is important but you can live with another ship
http://www.hnsa.org/class.htm

(3 of these New Jersey, Wisconsin and Iowa are pretty much identical and some of the others have much more active histories Massachusetts actually fired at another battleship and all the carriers had much more significant careers) The Cruiser Olympia has a much more interesting history.

I am tempted by some sort of Haunting of HMS Victory but that is not going to go well with an American themed plot

[Snow_Fox]

I'm glad someone else brought up"Under Siege" already that shows how insane it wuld be to steal one of these even if it was underwiegh and seaworthy and not defueled in a harbor. I've visited the USS New Jersey in Camden on the Delaware river. Just the idea of that thing doing a 57 point turn to turn around in the Delaware and head out to see is mind boggling.

Reagan took te Iowa's out of mothballs and modernized them in the 80
s and they were astill front line warships in the 1990's. I expect they would still be seaworthy in the 2070's. These were massively solid ships, the ulitmate expression of the Dreadnought design and comparred to modernships that alumiumn hulls can't really take a solid hit, they were designed to hang in a fight despite massive hits, the last time deployed they converyed ships through the striahgts of Hormuz that Iran threatened to close with silkworm missles. The Iowa's could shruugg off those hits had shooting started and returned fire with interest. I suspect the navy would have hidden these from the corps on the books to prevent them from being scrapped.

I'm not sure about background counts. The Iowa class were, except for the Wisconsin, particulalrly lucky ships with relatively low casualties- coming in towards the end of the war didn't hurt but they also served in Korea, Vietnam and the 1st Gulf War.

The background on Missouri would depend on the spell caster. It was there that kJapan surrednerd on Sept 2 1945 enfing the war. The ship wasl ined with sailors who wanted to see it. There were repsentatives of all the nations fighting, not just the great powers but also the British commonwelatrh, the liberated Europeans, etc. One of the Japanese delegates later reported looking at all those uniforms, representingh all those massed peoples. oin the deck of the great ship, he wondered how they ever dared think they could win.

The issue now becomes where is the ship? IF the hawaiian's honored the end of the war and the history there it might still be in Pearl. All things considered i can't the the Salish being too happy about a Battleship entering Puget sounds-and where would you put it? didn't the US lose the big navy yard near Seattle? THe sound is deep enough to house it but it would have already been a major attractions.

Maybe Sanm Fransisco harbor?

[KnightAries]

I don't think it would be in San Fran as the city isn't part of the UCAS which is the direct representation of the U.S.

I remember that the UCAS does have a Naval presences in Seattle but I think the major presence is Salish. So it could be there.

Personally I believe it would still be in Hawaii as the time, cost, manpower required to move her would be astounding.

I think the movie Battleship has a decent representation of how much of a pounding that a BB can take. As a WW2 ship it can still take multiple hit from modern ordinance and still function but they were designed to do that.

Our current ship can take hit and still function. I'll use a poor example but lets look at the USS Cole that took a single hit from 400 - 700 lbs of shaped charged explosives to make a 40' by 40' hole in the hull. This was at the waterline. Killed 17 and injured 39. of a crew of approx 350. The ship wasn't seaworthy for awhile but it's still in commission.

A better example would be the USS Stark that took 2 missiles in 1987. 1 detonated and 1 did not but did leak rocket fuel and created a large fire. 37 died and 21 injured with a crew complement of almost 200. Made it to port under it own power. The ship remained in commission until 1999.

[Andrew]

WW2 Era battleships were retired as they are obsolete, the 80-90'S refit did not really change that. However they had a unique ability for navel fire support with the heavy guns and could be set up as fire support and missile platforms easily (the refit costs were comparable to building a new Frigate , obviously running costs were much higher)
What made them obsolete was the overwhelming range advantage of aircraft carriers and the fact that all of their aircraft carried heavy AP Bombs or Torpedo's which could sink any battleship for minimal aircraft losses as the US had demonstrated. (also in the 50's the assumption was that the aircraft would use nukes in which case the armour was of no use) One interesting consequence of their dissapearence was that many navies stopped carrying weapons which could sink battleships, certainly light ASM's like Exocet were not going to be worth much vs a BB but thats not what they were designed for (they probably would have problems sinking a CVN). This caught the British out in the falklands war even a light cruiser like the Belgrano was likely to survive exocet fire and the 4.5" guns on British destroyers did not have AP ammo, the carriers didn't have AP bombs in fact the only weapons the RN had which could stop an armoured ship were the torpedo's on the subs.
Only 2 navies retained a serious capabilty to sink a BB , the Americans who had heavy AP bombs on their carriers and the Russians whose heavy ASM's carried a big warhead and made plunging dive's which would probably have penetrated the deck armour on a BB (and there were good odds the soviet ASM's would have nuke heads in a real war ) otherwise you needed a sub to kill the BB and they were a similar threat to the CVN's.
USS Stark was lucky in that they had learned from damage control lessions of the falklands and the exocets did not hit anything vital such as a magazine or the water mains which they did on the Sheffield also as she was in the Gulf and there was little chance of a follow up attack the Stark was able to receive more help and less severe weather

This is all probably true in Shadowrun with most weapons not being able to function against a well armoured ship, unfortunately the Missouri and her sisters no longer have propeller shafts or functional engines and could not be reasonably restored to service today let alone in 60 years when the hulls will have deteriorated further

[Snow_Fox]

The new Jesery has a chart at one point hsowing the range of it's weapons on a map. From where it sits in the Delaware river, it is a little unnerving to know my house is in the range of it's main 16" battery. With the cruise missles installed in the 80's they she could nuke Dallas. Unable to move they are a sitting duck-the spanish fleet at Manilla anyone? BUT alert and armed it could be a powerful platform. Think of HMS Canopus at Port Stanley in 1914, run aground her heavy guns held off the German cruisers Schanhorst and Gnisenau until the Battle Cruiers were up to steam.

The big advantage these old ships have is they have a bigger gun than ships are use to today and can shrug off hard hits that would shatter modern warships.

I've often thought the 5" guns on the starbord side of the New Jersey would do a world of good if they just leveled Camden. and imagine the surprise of Runners is the vulcan miniguns on it suddenly came to life as you went by?

It doesn't just have to be a battleship though, what if some of the 40mm guns on the Intrepid are live? The Hudson or 12th ave in NYC could suddenly be very unfriendly. or the 5in gun on the back of the fletcher class destroyer in the Boston navy yard? Runnersm ight be wathcing the coast Guard boats and suddenly fine a much bigger gun is on line?

[CanRay]

One of my guilty pleasures, John Ringo novels, had old Battleships and Destroyers (and other classes) refitted to provide artillery support.

At one point, a radioman was trying, desperately, for any kind of artillery support he could get, and finally got someone. And was surprised when he was told, "Danger: Close", as he was nowhere near the footprint of a 155mm.

USS Missouri was on the other side of the radio conversation. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[StealthSigma]

I'm glad someone else brought up"Under Siege" already that shows how insane it wuld be to steal one of these even if it was underwiegh and seaworthy and not defueled in a harbor. I've visited the USS New Jersey in Camden on the Delaware river. Just the idea of that thing doing a 57 point turn to turn around in the Delaware and head out to see is mind boggling.

Reagan took te Iowa's out of mothballs and modernized them in the 80
s and they were astill front line warships in the 1990's. I expect they would still be seaworthy in the 2070's. These were massively solid ships, the ulitmate expression of the Dreadnought design and comparred to modernships that alumiumn hulls can't really take a solid hit, they were designed to hang in a fight despite massive hits, the last time deployed they converyed ships through the striahgts of Hormuz that Iran threatened to close with silkworm missles. The Iowa's could shruugg off those hits had shooting started and returned fire with interest. I suspect the navy would have hidden these from the corps on the books to prevent them from being scrapped.

They were able to be recalled because they were still on the registered and maintained. All the Iowas have been stricken from the register. Iowa was stricken in 2006, New Jersey in 1995, Missouri in 1995, and Wisconsin in 2006. Though it is worthwhile to note that there is an edict by Congress that the Wisconsin, and I think the Iow be kept in a state readiness as a museum ship that it can be called back to service. That said, the New Jersey and Missouri are not to be kept in a state of readiness. So it would be reasonable to assume that the Iowa and Wisconsin may still be seaworthy in the 2070s but the other two would not likely be kept to the level of maintenance necessary to be seaworthy in the 2070s.

[Daddy's Litt...]

You might be surprised how much attention is lavashed on these ships.It was big news a couple of years ago when they went to move the Intrepid in New York and it got stuck in the silt, but it was still moving. In Philladelphia the news a year or two back was trying to save the Olympic. They are not sure is she could be move now but she is doing fine where she is.

[StealthSigma]

You might be surprised how much attention is lavashed on these ships.It was big news a couple of years ago when they went to move the Intrepid in New York and it got stuck in the silt, but it was still moving. In Philladelphia the news a year or two back was trying to save the Olympic. They are not sure is she could be move now but she is doing fine where she is.

The Intrepid was stuck in years of built up silt and tug boats with a lot of horsepower couldn't move it. The important part isn't the silt or even moving but rather that they had to use tugboats to move it. These ships are not in a condition by which you can just hop on them, power up the engines and get moving. The engines probably wouldn't work right, if at all, after being idle for so long. There could be various corrosion going on in parts of the hull that prevent it from being seaworthy. There's also a huge difference between towing a ship along a coast and towing it across the ocean. There's a 4500km stretch of open sea between Pearl Harbor and Seattle that the Missouri would need to be towed upon.

This is really the big thing. There would never be a shadowrun to extract the ship to Seattle. The only way for it to happen would be the new owners of Hawaii to agree to let the UCAS retain the ship and permit people to come repair it and crew it to Seattle.

[Sengir]

Though it is worthwhile to note that there is an edict by Congress that the Wisconsin, and I think the Iow be kept in a state readiness as a museum ship that it can be called back to service.

That was just a bit of fan service...somehow gargantuan and totally impractical war machines have a huge draw, so their fans were given some distant hope that their beloved machines might come back some day to make them STFU (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[StealthSigma]

That was just a bit of fan service...somehow gargantuan and totally impractical war machines have a huge draw, so their fans were given some distant hope that their beloved machines might come back some day to make them STFU (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

I don't think it's just that. I believe that members of Congress genuinely believe there is some value to having triple 16" turrets on a water mounted platform. About the only reason I can see that justify such weaponry is cost per shot of a small yield guided missile to replicate the effect would be much more expensive. Even then, you could setup multiple missile launch tubes far in excess of 9 barrels to create an firerate that is unmatched by the Iowa's 16".

*shrug*

[KnightAries]

One of my guilty pleasures, John Ringo novels, had old Battleships and Destroyers (and other classes) refitted to provide artillery support.

At one point, a radioman was trying, desperately, for any kind of artillery support he could get, and finally got someone. And was surprised when he was told, "Danger: Close", as he was nowhere near the footprint of a 155mm.

USS Missouri was on the other side of the radio conversation. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

Similar situations actually happened in Vietnam.

We have a story like that that gets told through the Navy. My step-dad confirmed. When I asked how he could he said he was there..

[Daddy's Litt...]

I was thinking about this and don't know so I will float it out there. Do modern missles have the AP power of WW2 shells? They do not need to have that because modern ships do not have such thick armor. with that in mind do not think of the Battleships as platforms for their big guns but as heavily armored missle platforms. They had cruise missle launchers put on them for the Gulf War. that makes them a mobile, heavily armed missle platform. If they have modern phalanx gun systems on board they will be well protected against aircraft and can absorb most of the missles that hit.

Sure you could go nuke/thor bolt on it but that would escalate any actions. Do you want to go that far? Or maybe we will get ship designs like this. (I am getting ideas while I write this.) Suppose my idea works but the ships themselves are not viable for reasons given. So a corp tries to start a building plan for a heavily armored ship as a missle platform. There would be a whole new generation of antiship missles needing to be developed for AP uses.

[Andrew]

A ww2 battleship will be able to resist the warheads of most modern ASM's as they are designed to kill Frigates and similar. The Heavy ASM's of Cold war Era Soviet ships would probably penetrate their deck armour given their designed attack profile. Even missiles which don't penetrate will cause nasty fires and wreck the electronics (and on the refit BB's mess up their deck missiles) however except for the heavy ASM's the battleship should survive.

However the Phalanx systems are utterly worthless as air defense they are designed to shoot down incoming missiles and in that role will be useful making the ships harder to kill with missiles. The Big AP Smart bombs used by current attack aircraft will do an excellent job in breaking through their armour as they do to hardened bunkers and without escorts a BB will not be able to resist such an attack but no ship can face all threats without escorts.

In practice the best weapon to kill a powerful surface unit like a BB or CV is a torpedo, these could be fitted to aircraft or cruise missiles and even a small torpedo (even easier with guided torpedo's) can mission kill a BB by wrecking the propellers or rudder (as in the Bismarck) and protecting against attack by submarines is difficult.

Your main problems with a heavily armoured ship are
1) Thor/Nukes
2) Cheap mission kills a few light missiles can take out all your radar and comm gear leaving an expensive target or light torpedo's can do a number on your propulsion system

Your best protection is not being hit which means stealth , air defenses (lasers , missiles) or being a submarine