Face-Gunbunny seeks primary weapon, Must love long bursts... Options

[FuelDrop]

I want to express my humblest apologies to ShadowDragon8685, as evidently being merely 'veteran' rating in my secondary skillset is just not on. By suggesting that it might be I have shamed the noble name of Dumpshock, and of shadowrun in general.

I hang my head in shame, for my 400 bp character is not able to outshoot the adept sniper, out-fight and outstealth the ninja swordmaster, out-rig the rigger and outcast the mage all at once with both hand tied behind her back and a blindfold. Obviously I must do better, and not merely be satisfied with filling one role exceptionally well and multiple combat roles competently.

Or... maybe I'm fine with having an interesting character who's not in the limelight 24-7. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

I've looked through my options, and have decided to go with a flavorful and interesting choice instead of an optimum one: Now the toss-up is between the Sandler TMP and the AK 97 (or maybe 147... which is more 'street'?).
thank you for all of your helpful replies, you've shown me the way forward... by arguing about optimization, surprisingly enough. Now I see where the path of trading in-character choices for 'optimal' choices goes, and I've decided to turn away now.

What can I say? I don't think I'd really enjoy turning the game into an arms race anywhere near as much as having the face and rigger stubbornly argue about whether Ares guns are untouchable (rigger) or home made is the way to go (face). (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Umidori]

Flechettes are utterly useless unless the other guy is completely unarmored. And by that I mean "does not have so much as a single point of relevant armor." If he does, you just got whammied because your +2 DV got crotch-kicked by his armor getting a free +5 boost.

Actually, its still valid with targets that have up to 4 armor value, as you could take a Called Shot to reduce the Armor to 0. Still, not as useful as a slug and a +4 DV.

Everyone falls into the same trap with shotguns. They think of them as slug throwers designed for single target elimination. They try to compare them to the precision stopping powers of the various kinds of rifles. But they completely miss out on the niche strengths shotguns possess, and the close quarters circumstances in which they shine.

1) Sometimes dealing less damage than modified armor (and subsequently dealing stun damage instead of physical) is preferable.
2) Depending on choke, flechette ammo can hit multiple targets.
3) Depending on choke, flechette ammo inflict a not insignificant negative dice pool modifier on the targets' defence rolls.

First point, the armor tradeoff. You don't lose any real damage with flechettes. I'll concede you lose a little bit of opportunity cost DV by not loading EX-Explosive rounds or whatever, but the amount is small and in my view compensated for. (And moreover, you can always change your ammo!)

So that just leaves the matter of increased AP making it more likely that an attack won't deal enough damage to beat the modifier armor rating, and hence deals stun damage rather than physical. But knocking someone out still removes them from the fight in most situations (with a few notable and uncommon exceptions). Combined with the fact that the average Stun Track of a condition modifier is smaller than the average Physical Track, dealing stun damage instead of physical to an even moderately armored target is a perfectly viable way to operate.

Second point, hitting multiple targets. Unless you're launching rockets, grenades, or explosives, no other firearm does this. At medium choke with the proper positioning, you can effectively make twice as many attacks as normal, even if the attacks are weaker individually. Tell a gun bunny that in certain situations they have the option to dual wield a pair guns, but instead of splitting their dice pool they simply lose a little bit of DV and suffer a chance of the attack being converted to stun damage instead of physical. They'd be insane not to drool over that. Then change over to wide choke and you're effectively tripling your number of attacks, again merely for a bit of damage and the chance of dealing stun instead of physical.

Third point, medium choke automatically imposes a -2 dice pool modifier to the defence roll for all targets, while wide choke imposes a -4 dice pool modifier.

Combine all of that with the fact that any and all choke modifiers are cumulative with Burst Fire and Full Auto as normal, and you've got an incredibly potent weapon in the right situation.

So let's run some numbers. Standard slug shotgun base damage is 7P, -1 AP. Taking into account BF or FA, a slug shotty is pretty much just an assault rifle with +1DV, at the cost of smaller ammo capacity and a rather hefty penalty to range. Even if you swap over to flechette rounds, as long as you're on narrow choke, you're doing no better than regular ammo. But where things get interesting is when you widen the choke.

Medium choke negates the bonus +2DV of flechettes and ups the armor pentration to +7, so now we're firing 7P, +7AP. Against a single target, that's a decent step backward. But against a pair of targets within 1 meter of each other, it starts to look a fair bit better.

For sake of mathematic simplicity, I'm gonna average out 7P +7AP to something simpler by exchanging +3 AP for -1 DV and ending up with 5P, +1AP. It's not perfectly exact, but it's a good enough approximation. So now we're hitting two targets for 5P, +1AP, or a rough total of 10P resisted between two targets. But unlike dual wielding, there's no split dice pool so on average you've got a lot more net hits per target. And more importantly, because it's a single attack test that hits two enemies, every net hit can essentially be counted twice - again, not perfectly exactly mathwise, but it's in the right ballpark. But we're not done yet! Both targets also suffer an automatic -2 DP on their defense test, which means on average they'll be getting one less hit to compare against your roll roughly 66% of the time, which means you essentially get a free net hit 66% of the time, which is essentially a free point of DV to the attack, and which is essentially counted twice because there are two targets!

And at this point, you can now add in Burst Fire for an additional +2DV, or an addition -2 to the defense rolls of your targets. All at the cost of increased chance to deal stun damage instead of physical, any uncompensated recoil at double normal value, and increased ammo expenditure.

Are shotguns the perfect weapon? No. If your chief concern is reliable single target elimination at long range, rifles are what you want. But if you figure you might run into a gang of lowlifes in a dark alley, or a half dozen security guards in the hallways of a corporate complex, a shotgun can quickly become a force multiplier, even against armored foes. Instead of killing one guy rather dead in a single pass, you can kill (or at least very nearly kill) two guys, or you can certainly badly wound three. Or you can attack two different groups of three, lightly to moderately wounding six targets (and adding to their "defender has defended against a previous attack" modifiers as well). Or maybe just two groups of two, doing much the same.

What if they're well armored? Hey, whether knocked out or dead, they're out of the fight, and not killing people tends to cause runners less problems in the long run. What if you run into a stun-immune armored drone or something with hardened armor? Just switch out your ammo! Why not just use grenades instead for tackling groups? Grenades tend to cause a lot of collateral damage, suffer the effects of scatter, and detonate on your next pass without an airburst linked launcher (and always if hand thrown and not remote detonated). Well what about if you aren't in close quarters and need to hit something further away? Then pick your weapons to match your needs better, dingus!

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

~Umi

[FuelDrop]

And it's done. My new toy is an AK-147 with gas vent 3, imaging scope, shock pad, flashlight, foregrip, melee hardening, personalized grip, skinlink and an internal smartgun system.
not optimal, but totally in character (she built it herself).

[StealthSigma]

Indeed! Besides, the max skill of 6 is just 2 extra dice. Nothing to sneeze at, but certainly not the bee's knees in terms of what separates Gun Jesus from the red shirts. With all bonuses gun bunnies get from everything else, the difference between 4 and 6 is not the Grand Canyon.

I find it exceedingly difficult to justify Rating 6 on any skill, especially in karma gen. Consequently, I would consider a Rank of 5 in a skill (ignoring Reflex Recorders/Adept Powers, etc) to be Excellent. Additionally, a Reflex Recorder is a much cheaper option to increase the rating, and at 5 skill a +1 gives you the extra take aim. At 6 skill it only gives you the benefit of an additional die.

As far as I'm concerned, mediocre is a skill rating of 2 (ignoring Reflex Recorders and Adept Powers).

1 : Poor
2 : Mediocre
3 : Good
4 : Very Good
5 : Excellent
6 : Superlative
7 : Godlike

[Marwynn]

And it's done. My new toy is an AK-147 with gas vent 3, imaging scope, shock pad, flashlight, foregrip, melee hardening, personalized grip, skinlink and an internal smartgun system.
not optimal, but totally in character (she built it herself).

Seems cool. May I ask why the internal smartgun? Are you not wearing goggles/optics of some sort to put in the vision magnification (or other enhancements) there?

Saves you some money if you can turn some of those into accessories. Is the Gas Vent 3 internal? If so, you could still put on a Suppressor and switch between the two.

Anyway, it's a nice solid AR.

[FuelDrop]

Seems cool. May I ask why the internal smartgun?

It seemed like a good idea at the time. that simple.

[ShadowDragon8685]

No, actually, it doesn't quite mean that. It means "of moderate or low quality". Mediocre has clear and long-standing negative connotations.

Since you're talking about word meanings ... http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/mediocre

Remember what they say about "Good enough" in Running? "Good enough gets you dead." I assert that a mighty skill of 4, unspecialized, is "good enough" to participate, but likely to get you dead if you have to rely on it without better backup.

You're asserting it should be an Exotic weapon? I disagree. Perhaps you should have chosen something more exotic ...?

Exotic Melee Weapons
The Exotic Melee Weapon skill is used for any exotic weapon that is held by the character or attached to him (as in the case of some cyberweapons) while he fights with it.
Entry 1: Garrote.
Entry 2: Kusarigama. (Emphasis mine.)

The guy with skill 4 could be specialised, too.

Yes, but then he's boasting of a 6 skill with his weapon of choice, not a 4 skill. 6 is boast-worthy, 4 is not. "Better than the majority of metahumanity" doesn't cut it, because you're not fighting Joe Everyman, you're fighting a most-likely numerically superior number of enemies who are also "better than the majority of metahumanity" in the field of hurting people.

Also, as I've already said once now: Specialisation DOES. NOT. ACTUALLY. INCREASE. YOUR. SKILL. RATING.

And yet, it's worth boasting over. It clearly demonstrates your superior skill with your weapon of choice. The guy with Blades 4 (Nodaichi +2) is going to be mediocre at best if handed a Claymore and told to compete against a skilled opponent, but if he can use his Nodaichi, his clearly superior skill at handling the uber-katana is going to be evident.

Skill 1, and Specialised? Reflex Recorders to Jack over Squat for you - even though you're rolling the same 3 dice (plus agility) as the unspecialised Skill 3 guy.

Boasting about something which was installed in you is in poor taste at best, especially since something installed can be uninstalled. Nobody can steal your skill or specialization. (Well, barring you fucking up good and making a retarded pact with a spirit.)

You don't have to be the best int he world before boasting that you're better than the majority of metahumanity. Which someone with a 4 clearly is.

The majority of humanity has very little skill at playing the game of Counter-Strike. I could easily boast that I am "better than the majority of Humanity at Counter-Strike," and it would be true, because in that tally of "majority" I am including the billions of people who have never played Counter-Strike, including the ones who are too young to play, the ones who are too poor to play, the ones who are too old, infirm, or disabled to play, and the ones who simply have never had any interest of playing Counter-Strike, along with the odd Counter-Strike player of lesser skill than I.

If I go onto a Counter-Strike server and begin boasting that I am "Better than the majority of humanity at Counter-Strike," I will be repeatedly punked when everyone on that server takes that as a challenge and proceeds to beat my ass. Hence, I have nothing to boast about.


And if you're going to say "The average ganger has a Blades skill of 2" or "the average rent-a-cop has a Pistols skill of 2," bear in mind that you're talking about boasting of being better than people who are only slightly better than virtual incompetence - nothing to brag about.

Also, take a note that the average Halloweener has a Close Combat skill group of 3 and an Agility of 4. You may be, technically, better than him with your Skill Group of 4, but he's going to stand a reasonable chance of holding his own. When his five buddies jump into the fray and you're relying on your "Good enough" skill of 4, your ass is in trouble. Which is what's going to happen if you begin boasting about your superior skill.

[Marwynn]

It seemed like a good idea at the time. that simple.

The reason I ask is that usually you treat AKs as "disposable" guns. After a while, your "bullet" trail is going to get traced. Depends wholly on the GM of course. My last mage ditched AK-98s so often that I downgraded to just the AK-97 and grabbed a dedicated grenade launcher.

The only mods the AK-97 had were personalized grip, foregrip, and skinlink. I kept the same Smartgun external attachment, the Gas Vent 3, and the shockpad. Added a sling so it could hang without me holding it, no added RC though with the shockpad.

But if it's done, it's done.

[ShadowDragon8685]

By RAW, a skill or 4 is NOT mediocre, a skill group of 4 (with all the tactical versatility this gives) even less so, *especially for a face character*. Sheesh.

You mean the fluff pieces? When fluff and crunch disagree, I go with crunch. 4 is mediocre. You can get by on it, but you shouldn't rely on it, especially when commiting armed robbery against a target that will shoot back.

I wouldn't call players who manage to generate characters with realistic (in the world of Shadowrun) skill sets mediocre at all. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Since I was using a sports analogy, I was clearly referring to the characters, Thanee/

I want to express my humblest apologies to ShadowDragon8685, as evidently being merely 'veteran' rating in my secondary skillset is just not on. By suggesting that it might be I have shamed the noble name of Dumpshock, and of shadowrun in general.

I hang my head in shame, for my 400 bp character is not able to outshoot the adept sniper, out-fight and outstealth the ninja swordmaster, out-rig the rigger and outcast the mage all at once with both hand tied behind her back and a blindfold. Obviously I must do better, and not merely be satisfied with filling one role exceptionally well and multiple combat roles competently.

Or... maybe I'm fine with having an interesting character who's not in the limelight 24-7. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

Nice passive aggressive BS there, FD. I never said that 4 skill was not sufficient for a secondary skill with which to provide backup to those for whom it is their primary, just that it wasn't, in and of itself, a primary score worth boasting about, which is also why I suggested taking extreme measures to protect yourself and employ it as efficiently as possible.

I've looked through my options, and have decided to go with a flavorful and interesting choice instead of an optimum one: Now the toss-up is between the Sandler TMP and the AK 97 (or maybe 147... which is more 'street'?).
thank you for all of your helpful replies, you've shown me the way forward... by arguing about optimization, surprisingly enough. Now I see where the path of trading in-character choices for 'optimal' choices goes, and I've decided to turn away now.

What can I say? I don't think I'd really enjoy turning the game into an arms race anywhere near as much as having the face and rigger stubbornly argue about whether Ares guns are untouchable (rigger) or home made is the way to go (face). (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Your loss. Anyway, the AK-97 is more street unless your Friendly Local Arms Dealer has gotten his hand on a nanofax and started mass-producing them. The Sandler TMP is more street than both of them though, but why stop there?

Go and get yourself an authentic counterfiet or knock-off MAC-10 from a shady street-corner in Puyallup or Redmond. It's in Gun Heaven 1 or the Runner's Black Book, and it's so Street it bellows the 1980s in a thirty round clip!

[FuelDrop]

This one isn't a 'disposable' weapon as much as a 'Fighting off a hostile gang' armament. If a run were dedicated wetwork against a corp or something i would certainly grab a disposable gun (Probably a Smartgun X with a foregrip added), but for a heavy lifting weapon I want something tried, trusted and true.

Also, anyone who mods a throw away with a personalized grip deserves to be caught, unless they melt it down with thermite or something.

[Marwynn]

Well, yeah, obviously you rip that off. Also the shockpad and sling since that could have been in contact with you for a long time. Material links are bad.

If it's a keeper, then sure an AK-147 works. I love the G12 from GH1 myself, the look of that thing is just neat.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Boasting about something which was installed in you is in poor taste at best, especially since something installed can be uninstalled. Nobody can steal your skill or specialization. (Well, barring you fucking up good and making a retarded pact with a spirit.)

And yet you are boasting about Specialties (WHICH HAVE NO SKILL BOOST AT ALL), and Skills up to 9 (WHICH REQUIRE EITHER IMPLANTS OR MAGIC). What you are saying is ludicrous. Skill 4 is someone who has been using the skill for possibly decades. He is a VETERAN in that particular Skill. The biggest problem that you seem to be having is assuming that min-maxed idiotic characters with 6-9 in Skill RATINGS are the norm, and they are NOT.

That is one of the biggest assumptions on Dumpshock that just sends me right over the edge. a 6 in a Skill is WORLD CLASS. The VAST number of Professional Sports athletes will have 4's in their skills. A Michael Jordan, Michael Phelps, or Tiger Woods only comes around once in a generation or so. You cannot say that a 6 is the norm in Shadowrun Because it SHOULD NOT BE. Even Olympic athletes do not all have 6's, they would generally be in the 5 range. And even with such vaunted skill ratings as 6, are often beaten by their competitors with less overall skill on occasion. You are trying to make an absolute, and it is not so.

As a character, if I was the bragging sort, I would definitely brag about a skill rating 4, becasue it is something hat I had been using over the last 20 years. A Rating 4 is better than the average assumed skill rating in Shadowrun. Even for Shadowrunners.

[StealthSigma]

Skills up to 9 (WHICH REQUIRES MAGIC).

FTFY.

[ShadowDragon8685]

I find it exceedingly difficult to justify Rating 6 on any skill, especially in karma gen. Consequently, I would consider a Rank of 5 in a skill (ignoring Reflex Recorders/Adept Powers, etc) to be Excellent. Additionally, a Reflex Recorder is a much cheaper option to increase the rating, and at 5 skill a +1 gives you the extra take aim. At 6 skill it only gives you the benefit of an additional die.

As far as I'm concerned, mediocre is a skill rating of 2 (ignoring Reflex Recorders and Adept Powers).

1 : Poor
2 : Mediocre
3 : Good
4 : Very Good
5 : Excellent
6 : Superlative
7 : Godlike

A six is unlikely, but a five, to my way of thinking, is not to be unexpected from someone for whom it is their schtick - the gun bunny would want Firearms 4 and at least one of those skills - the one he or she plans to use the most - pushed up to 5. Same with the Face and their Influence and Negotiation (most likely,) or the Magician and his Sorcery/Spellcasting/Summoning.


Here's how I see the ladder going. I'll use the example of someone's skill at using guns. Note that for me, "Skill" means "Any inherent, non-Attribute dice you will roll for a given task without equipment bonuses or augmentations." Specializations count, Adept powers count.

- Skill: Literally has no idea what they're doing. Infant.
0 Skill: Figuratively has no idea what they're doing. Child who likes to play shooter video games.
1 Skill: Complete and utter novice. Teenager with a gun-collecting uncle who takes him to the range every now and then.
2 Skill: Rank journeyman/Amatuer. Just graduated from the police academy.
3 Skill: Proficient but utterly not noteworthy. Has walked the beat for a year and survived a few shootouts during which he mostly took cover.
4 Skill: Competent but uninspired. Walked the beat for five years and gunned down a few punks without taking injuries.
5 Skill: Professional and reliable. Retired early, became a private eye.
6 Skill: Exceptional. Does not fear going into most of Redmond Barrens alone at night.
7 Skill: Superstar. Shadowrunners fear to cross him without backup and a plan.
8 Skill: Stuff of Legends. Known to occasionally make shots over iron sights that beat cops would need a scoped sporting rifle and a smartgun link for.
9 Skill+: Jesus Christ Superstar. To those who know of him, his skill with a gun is comparable to Miyamoto Mushashi's skill with a sword.

[ShadowDragon8685]

And yet you are boasting about Specialties (WHICH HAVE NO SKILL BOOST AT ALL), and Skills up to 9 (WHICH REQUIRE EITHER IMPLANTS OR MAGIC). What you are saying is ludicrous. Skill 4 is someone who has been using the skill for possibly decades. He is a VETERAN in that particular Skill. The biggest problem that you seem to be having is assuming that min-maxed idiotic characters with 6-9 in Skill RATINGS are the norm, and they are NOT.

Specialties demonstrate clearly superior skill with a given subset of a larger skill.

A Specialty lets you be handed an automatic (Pistols 4) and say "Yeah, I'm all right, but you should see me with a revolver" (Revolvers +2).

That is one of the biggest assumptions on Dumpshock that just sends me right over the edge. a 6 in a Skill is WORLD CLASS. The VAST number of Professional Sports athletes will have 4's in their skills. A Michael Jordan, Michael Phelps, or Tiger Woods only comes around once in a generation or so. You cannot say that a 6 is the norm in Shadowrun Because it SHOULD NOT BE. Even Olympic athletes do not all have 6's, they would generally be in the 5 range. And even with such vaunted skill ratings as 6, are often beaten by their competitors with less overall skill on occasion. You are trying to make an absolute, and it is not so.

Professional Athletes with 4s are the fillers. They pad out the roster, they run interference or defense, they're not the headliners, they're not the showstarters. Depending on the luck of the dice, they may or may not be the deciding factor in a game, but they are not exceptional at what they do - they are the filler, the average at what they do. They're every random grunt in a platoon, they're the guys on the sports team who are only notable for the rarity of their cards, because they never printed any great quantity. Will it get them bragging rights if they walk into a sports bar full of beer-bellied sports fans who sometimes throw a pigskin around, sure. If they walk into a bar full of other professional players? Absolutely not. Within their profession, they are unexceptional. Whether their profession is armed crime or football.

As a character, if I was the bragging sort, I would definitely brag about a skill rating 4, becasue it is something hat I had been using over the last 20 years. A Rating 4 is better than the average assumed skill rating in Shadowrun. Even for Shadowrunners.

If your character goes around bragging about a skill rating of 4, he's going to get his ass beat, and rightly so. 4 is basically the bare minimum to participate in the Shadows seriously. Augments and stuff can make you more participatory, but don't delude yourself into thinking they make you more skilled.

[Fortinbras]

Specialties demonstrate clearly superior skill with a given subset of a larger skill.

Okay, what you're talking about here is skill with a lower case "s" as opposed to big bold Skill.

For the purpose of what folks are trying to say, I think it's safe to presume that the 4 Skill(big capital S) gun bunny and the 6 Skill(or 10, I suppose if you want to take that Quality) gun bunny have the same Specialties and gear or Magic or whatever for the purposes of determining whether or not Skill 4 is mediocre and Skill 7 Better-Than-Jesus-as-a-Person-or-God-as-a-Thing.

I'm saying that, all things being equal(things like gear and magic and Specialties,) the difference between Skill 4 guy and Skill 10 guy is 4 dice, or about 20% of a 20+ die pool.
I'm saying that 20%(or 1 1/3 successes) is not a chasm that separates mediocre from Best in the World. It separate good from Best in the World.

Now if you're got a gun bunny with Skill 4 that doesn't have Specialties or gear or Magic or Smartlink vs. someone with Skill 10 who does, then yes, that's a pretty big gap. Then again a Skill 4 without all that is separated by miles from another Skill 4 who does far more than the Skill 4 guy is separated from the Skill 10 guy.
Makes sense?

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Specialties demonstrate clearly superior skill with a given subset of a larger skill.

A Specialty lets you be handed an automatic (Pistols 4) and say "Yeah, I'm all right, but you should see me with a revolver" (Revolvers +2).

Professional Athletes with 4s are the fillers. They pad out the roster, they run interference or defense, they're not the headliners, they're not the showstarters. Depending on the luck of the dice, they may or may not be the deciding factor in a game, but they are not exceptional at what they do - they are the filler, the average at what they do. They're every random grunt in a platoon, they're the guys on the sports team who are only notable for the rarity of their cards, because they never printed any great quantity. Will it get them bragging rights if they walk into a sports bar full of beer-bellied sports fans who sometimes throw a pigskin around, sure. If they walk into a bar full of other professional players? Absolutely not. Within their profession, they are unexceptional. Whether their profession is armed crime or football.

If your character goes around bragging about a skill rating of 4, he's going to get his ass beat, and rightly so. 4 is basically the bare minimum to participate in the Shadows seriously. Augments and stuff can make you more participatory, but don't delude yourself into thinking they make you more skilled.

And I think that you are wrong on all of your points. Its okay to be shortsighted though (Most of us are on occasion)... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[StealthSigma]

Note that for me, "Skill" means "Any inherent, non-Attribute dice you will roll for a given task without equipment bonuses or augmentations." Specializations count, Adept powers count.

Well. That's dumb.

There's absolutely no reason why a Reflex Recorder, which is a cultured bioware augmentation that by the crunch is practically impossible detect and will always be available to you regardless of where you are should not be considered while Magic, which is something easily detected and something unavailable to you in certain locations is considered.

[ShadowDragon8685]

Well. That's dumb.

There's absolutely no reason why a Reflex Recorder, which is a cultured bioware augmentation that by the crunch is practically impossible detect and will always be available to you regardless of where you are should not be considered while Magic, which is something easily detected and something unavailable to you in certain locations is considered.

It's not inherent to you. It can be taken away. It only augments your performance, not your mastery.

[Speed Wraith]

If your character goes around bragging about a skill rating of 4, he's going to get his ass beat, and rightly so. 4 is basically the bare minimum to participate in the Shadows seriously. Augments and stuff can make you more participatory, but don't delude yourself into thinking they make you more skilled.

I'm with the, "No, a 4 is pretty well trained and solid skill level" crowd. Most especially when combined with a specialty. The fact is, there are too many skills a runner needs to have. They're NOT athletes who have to have super high Athletics Group and no other relevant skills to be superstars. They're commandos who need to be flexible and maintain a Jack-of-all-trades mentality to really get the Rep they need to advance their careers to novahot. More skills at solid levels trumps a small skill set and maximum levels in the shadows.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

It's not inherent to you. It can be taken away. It only augments your performance, not your mastery.

Actually it Augments your Mastery, not your performance. It is a SKIL Bonus, not a Modifier. Just Like Adept Powers, which can ALSO be taken away. In fact, Adept powers can be taken away Much More Easlily than Bioware augments can... Ever heard of a Background Count?

[ShadowDragon8685]

Actually it Augments your Mastery, not your performance. It is a SKILL Bonus, not a Modifier. Just Like Adept Powers, which can ALSO be taken away. In fact, Adept powers can be taken away Much More Easlily than Bioware augments can... Ever heard of a Background Count?

Sorry, TJ, you're just wrong. Whether or not it's a modifier to capital-S Skill, it does not make you better. It's uninherent.

Adept powers are inherent, and whether ambient conditions can prevent their use or not is irrelevant. Thick smoke can prevent the best gunfighter from using his gun worth a good goddamn, but it doesn't "take away" his skills. They come back if he (a) negates the condition, or (b) removes himself to a better position from which to use his skills. If you get tranqed and tied down, a corp can extract your reflex recorders; it can't extract the Adept's powers, and it can't remove the gunfighter's skill or specialization.

[StealthSigma]

It's not inherent to you. It can be taken away. It only augments your performance, not your mastery.

Reflex Recorders increase your skill rating. They do not provide a dice pool bonus. They should be included, especially if you're counting the dice pool bonus gained from Specializations.

[ShadowDragon8685]

Reflex Recorders increase your skill rating. They do not provide a dice pool bonus. They should be included, especially if you're counting the dice pool bonus gained from Specializations.

They can be taken away.

That's the first stop on the "this is not mastery, this is performance" train.

[StealthSigma]

Sorry, TJ, you're just wrong. Whether or not it's a modifier to capital-S Skill, it does not make you better. It's uninherent.

Adept powers are inherent, and whether ambient conditions can prevent their use or not is irrelevant. Thick smoke can prevent the best gunfighter from using his gun worth a good goddamn, but it doesn't "take away" his skills. They come back if he (a) negates the condition, or (b) removes himself to a better position from which to use his skills. If you get tranqed and tied down, a corp can extract your reflex recorders; it can't extract the Adept's powers, and it can't remove the gunfighter's skill or specialization.

Um. Yeah. That corp can remove your adept powers.

"Hmm. This guy's an adept. Let's put a bunch of useless augments in him so he can no longer use his powers."