Noticing Magic Question Options

[Major Doom]

Does the rule for Noticing Magic (SR4A, page 179) apply to all spell casting, even a spell such as Control Thoughts (SR4A, page 210)?

[Stahlseele]

Yes.
Why would you think it would not apply though?

[Major Doom]

The fluff in the first paragraph of Noticing Magic threw me off a bit. Such as the following:

...since most spells and spirits have little, if any, visible effect in the physical world (unless the magician prefers to have flashy effects, or her tradition calls for it). An observer has to notice the magician’s intense look of concentration, whispered incantations, and small gestures.

[X-Kalibur]

The fluff in the first paragraph of Noticing Magic threw me off a bit. Such as the following:

Plus their shamanic mask, if they are a shaman.

[Stahlseele]

The Rules are there so Magicians are not completely undiscernable . . Because just from that bit of piece, a Magician can sit back, relax, hold a bit of paper in his hand and pretend to read something on it, cast a sideways glance at somebody and a spell in the same time and then look back at his bit of paper without looking like he did anything more strenous than moving his eyes for a second . .
And rules, technically, always trump fluff . . even if it may sound and feel really dumb and wrong to you in some cases.

[Major Doom]

Righto, thanks.

[Dreadlord]

In Odom's novels, he described a wavering effect when powerful magic was used, which I thought was a kewl way of imaging it.

[Irion]

The problem here is always, that the rules are lacking fluff and so you do not know what exactly is going to happpen...

If a mage is in a Box and casts a spell, do you know that there is a mage in the box?

[X-Kalibur]

The problem here is always, that the rules are lacking fluff and so you do not know what exactly is going to happpen...

If a mage is in a Box and casts a spell, do you know that there is a mage in the box?

Can you see said mage? Can said mage see you? I would imagine if a mage starts casting a spell directed at you that you get that sensation... you know, like when someone is staring at you. That niggling sensation.

[Dakka Dakka]

Can you see said mage? Can said mage see you? I would imagine if a mage starts casting a spell directed at you that you get that sensation... you know, like when someone is staring at you. That niggling sensation.

No, the target (or anyone else) notices the casting not the spell. This feeling that you are being watched you either get or you don't. Magic does not make you feel something like that.

@mage in a box:If you can't see the mage in the box you cannot see that he is staring intently at someone/something, or the sweat on his brow etc. The weird sparkles introduced by SR4A should be irrelevant as well as nowhere does it say how far they extend.

[Midas]

Good question, Irion. The RAW gives a threshold of 6 - F to notice a spell being cast, but does not say *how* it would be noticed.

If we assume there is an audio component to the casting (the RAW does mention chanting), then I guess you could hear a mage hiding in a box nearby casting a high force spell. Fortunately mages aren't in the habit of hiding in boxes and casting spells (the box ruins their LoS for combat spells to start with for starters), but I guess it would be GM call if it came up in your game ...

[Dakka Dakka]

Good question, Irion. The RAW gives a threshold of 6 - F to notice a spell being cast, but does not say *how* it would be noticed.

It is noticed by perceiving the mage, so with one or more of the observer's senses.

If we assume there is an audio component to the casting (the RAW does mention chanting), then I guess you could hear a mage hiding in a box nearby casting a high force spell. Fortunately mages aren't in the habit of hiding in boxes and casting spells (the box ruins their LoS for combat spells to start with for starters), but I guess it would be GM call if it came up in your game ...

While the section about noticing magic mentions chanting and gesturing, the mage is in no way obliged to use chanting or gestures to successfully cast a spell. If the mage does not do something, that thing cannot be noticed. So all that remains is largely involuntary like sweat (casting is a draining activity), intense stare (the mage most likely needs to establish LOS) and the weird sparkles from SR4A (rules fiat).

[HeckfyEx]

My GM allowed me to change Magical Radical Sparkles to the smell and taste of oranges.

[Dakka Dakka]

My GM allowed me to change Magical Radical Sparkles to the smell and taste of oranges.

Whatever it is the sparkles have no listed range. Smell makes the thing even more unclear as you do not have LOS to determine whether the stimulus can reach an observer. Taste is contact stimulus, so it should very rarely even apply.

In my games there are no sparkles. period.

[bannockburn]

So in your games no one can notice the magician cast?

[Dakka Dakka]

So in your games no one can notice the magician cast?

Of course they can. They just have to succeed at the standard test (INT+Perception(6-Force)). Contrary to SR4A they have to perceive the caster and not some sparkles that may be created by casting somewhere.

BTW to make it more caster dependent I use a threshold of (MAG-Force). To me it makes little sense that casting a force 3 spell is just as strenuous (and thus noticeable) for a MAG 3 magician as for a MAG 12+ Great Dragon.

[bannockburn]

Ah, alright then.

[Dreadlord]

BTW to make it more caster dependent I use a threshold of (MAG-Force). To me it makes little sense that casting a force 3 spell is just as strenuous (and thus noticeable) for a MAG 3 magician as for a MAG 12+ Great Dragon.

Huh. I always assumed that the effect was from magic warping reality, and not so much whether the mage was straining or not.

Since there is either contradictory or overly vague descriptions, it leaves way too much on the shoulders of the GM to interpret for a hard and fast rule, in my opinion.

[Dakka Dakka]

Huh. I always assumed that the effect was from magic warping reality, and not so much whether the mage was straining or not.

This has only been introduced in SR4A. Before Magic or Mana has always been invisible on the physical plane though blatantly obvious on the astral. For reference the sections in SR4 and SR4A:

An observer has to notice the magician’s intense look of concentration, whispered incantations, and small gestures.
[...]
Noticing if someone is using a magical skill requires a Perception Test (p. 117) with a threshold equal to 6 minus the magic’s Force—more powerful magic is easier to spot.

An observer has to notice the magician’s intense look of concentration, whispered incantations, and small gestures.
[...]
Noticing if someone is using a magical skill requires a Perception Test (p. 135) with a threshold equal to 6 minus the magic’s Force. More powerful magic is easier to spot with the gathered mana normally appearing as a disturbance or glowing aura in the air around the caster.

[X-Kalibur]

Noticing if someone is using a magical skill requires a Perception Test (p. 135) with a threshold equal to 6 minus the magic’s Force. More powerful magic is easier to spot with the gathered mana normally appearing as a disturbance or glowing aura in the air around the caster.

That's so that you and the opposition know who to geek first if one side doesn't have any mages. That or the guy who just started spontaneously bleeding from his ears from casting too strong a spell.

[Dakka Dakka]

That's so that you and the opposition know who to geek first if one side doesn't have any mages. That or the guy who just started spontaneously bleeding from his ears from casting too strong a spell.

In all previous editions you had to notice a lot more subtle signs. In all previous editions mana was invisible to the mundane eye.

[Fortinbras]

Since there is either contradictory or overly vague descriptions, it leaves way too much on the shoulders of the GM to interpret for a hard and fast rule, in my opinion.

I personally like that the specifics on noticing magic is left up to GM discretion more than other parts of the game. I'm fine with the rule of roll this to notice that, but when it becomes "all magic is noticed because..." it can turn into a mechanical disconnect and players start looking for loopholes around it. I think shaman magic should be noticed differently than mage magic which should be noticed differently than Buddhist magic and so on, so every time one of my players does roll to notice magic, they can notice a new thing: whether it be chanting, ambient light changes, warping reality or whatever cool, weird thing I'm into at the time.

That's just my personal opinion on it, though.

[X-Kalibur]

In all previous editions you had to notice a lot more subtle signs. In all previous editions mana was invisible to the mundane eye.

We used to have deckers too, and no technomancers; I'm not sure I follow you. The rules changed, either use them or don't, saying what it used to be like doesn't actually get you anywhere.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

In all previous editions you had to notice a lot more subtle signs. In all previous editions mana was invisible to the mundane eye.

Magic has become both more prevelant and more powerful in 4A. Obviously, it has become easier to notice as well. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Dakka Dakka]

It has? From SR4 to SR4A? Technically it has not even become easier to notice there are just more things that the GM can describe to the noticing character. The threshold is the same no matter if there are sparkles or not.