How much Nuyen can a runner make without running Options

[Emperor Tippy]

And if they HIRE multiple teams of similarly skilled and equipped prime runners to take the offending team out?

Killing the team is never the problem, if all else fails they can just drop a Thor Shot on the teams head. It's localizing the runner team that is the problem.

Mega-corps, organized crime, and other large public (or semi-public) organizations must, by their nature, be somewhat accessible. They have known places of operation, known members, known businesses, known contacts, etc.

A runner team, by it's very nature, can be nearly utterly inaccessible. They can operate anywhere in the world, they have no known members, they don't have front businesses, their contacts can be dropped, etc.

The runners will always have the initiative. They will attack first. This let's them get in a devastating (and potentially crippling) first strike. When you assassinate the Mafia Don, Consigliere, and top lieutenants, blow up the Mafia's stash houses and weapons stores, give the police incriminating evidence on every street level organization operator, give their enemy organization's helpful information, etc. it becomes very difficult for the OC family to remain intact enough to mount a counter offensive (even if they know who attacked them). Mega-Corps can survive this experience.

So hirer other runner teams, those teams have to find the enemy team and then have to assassinate said runner team.

For every resource the runners have, the corps have a million.

No, they really don't. There are maybe a million people world wide with skills comparable to a Prime Runner (what the PC's are). Where the corps win is that they have hundreds of millions of people who are almost as good, legal immunity, more money than god, and no restrictions on available gear.

The runners have to be successful in their war against the corp many many times.

The corp only has to be successful once.

Yep. The Runners will almost certainly loose, that's not in doubt. They can deal with an OC group with a relatively high chance of success and survival, they can certainly do enough damage that the OC group will be destroyed by it's various rivals when it is weakened.

What they can do to a corp is cause enough damage and problems that it is rarely worth getting a runner team that pissed off and motivated. It's why if a corp wants a runner team dead they will make sure that the runner team dies with no warning and in a single sudden strike. Trying and failing to kill a runner team is very bad for the bottom line.

If Ares wants a runner team dead and has localized the team they will go in with hundreds of Firewatch operatives in full assault armor, hundreds of high force spirits, hundreds of high end hackers, military air craft and tanks, and hundreds of drones; and still be willing to drop a Thor Shot if it looks like the runners might win. That's all cheaper than the damage that a single motivated team of prime runners could cause to Ares.

[_Pax._]

The Vory being the notable exception. They'd rather duke it out blood-for-blood than let Runners get one over on them. Those guys do not do business well.

True. Of course, with the Vory, there's a different approach to take: buy your way in. Cook up a a couple hundred thousand nuyen of drugs, and offer them as a contribution to the obschak.

It always pays to know your target, and how to deal with them.

And if they HIRE multiple teams of similarly skilled and equipped prime runners to take the offending team out?

The point isn't "the runners will win".

The point is, "dealing with pissed-off shadowrunners WILL COST MUCH MORE THAN PLAYING NICE WOULD HAVE.

[Draco18s]

That's a TV show.

And this is a role playing game.

[KarmaInferno]

The point isn't "the runners will win".

The point is, "dealing with pissed-off shadowrunners WILL COST MUCH MORE THAN PLAYING NICE WOULD HAVE.

And yet, somehow the classic trope for Shadowrun, hell, cyberpunk games in general, is that the employer screws the team.

It's a factor of the dystopia. Everyone loses, except the Megacorps. The runners just lose a little slower than everyone else.



-k

[Emperor Tippy]

And yet, somehow the classic trope for Shadowrun, hell, cyberpunk games in general, is that the employer screws the team.

Only because the team is often times idiotic when it comes to proper security measures.

It's a factor of the dystopia. Everyone loses, except the Megacorps. The runners just lose a little slower than everyone else.

Who said that the players would win? In a fight between them and a mega they will, almost certainly, loose. The thing is that they would cost the megacorp a whole lot of nuyen, large numbers of hard to replace assets, public embarrassment, and the perception of strength. Most of the time it's simply not worth the fight.

So most of the time a megacorp won't actively try to get a team of prime runners particularly pissed at them.

It's very much a "kill them all and salt the earth" or "bribe them to deal with our enemies" situation for the mega-corps. Most of the time it's better to bribe them to harm their enemies; i.e. hirer the team to do a run against an enemy. Often times the mega-corp can even end up making a profit on the whole deal.

The one thing they can be assured of is that going to war against a runner team will not be profitable.

[FuelDrop]

And yet, somehow the classic trope for Shadowrun, hell, cyberpunk games in general, is that the employer screws the team.

It has already been mentioned that intentionally pissing off runners is stupid, and there appears to be some consensus about that (this is dumpshock: having 45% on an issue is a landslide [As there are always at least 3 sides. Even to yes-no questions. If Dumpshock is ever fully united on an issue then the world will tremble!]).

As this is nominally agreed on, I'd just like to point out that employers betraying runners is a good thing in the long run: It kulls the stupid and arrogant from the gene pool, and provides a nice fireworks display for the wage-slaves.

Anyone else got any positive effects from runners getting screwed by their employer? (Negative with enough spin accepted! also, non-specific about WHO the effects are positive for)

[Draco18s]

Remember that the screw can turn both ways.
Runners are cautious folks, most times, and will ask for half up front. If they think you're going to screw them, they'll just take the half and never come back.

(Works like that in the real world too. My company did work for a client through a fixer company. The end client loved the product, but apparently went out of business and was unable to pay the fixer. The fixer turned around and said, "the client hated it and wants $15,000 back." My boss is half considering giving it to them (and then bumping the price on the next project through them by $15,000) and half considering telling them to fuck off for being lying bastards and never accepting work from them again, and half considering sending a lawyer after them).

[ShadowDragon8685]

Remember, to 'win,' the Runners don't have to destroy the organization to piss them off.

Runner Victory Conditions are to damage the organization that pissed you off into going to war, damage them badly enough that they will be picked apart by their peers, and manage to vanish successfully after doing so.


In theory, this is even possible with a AAA mega. Get the kind of dirt on them that results in an Omega Order being issued, broadband it, and do so anonymously. Blowing the lid off of Aztechnology's blood sacrifice scheme in a way that not even the Aztechnology PR machine can bury is a good example.


For criminal orgs, this is significantly easier, depending on the size of the organization. It's definitely possible to do so to the local branch, especially if the remote branches don't like the locals enough to avenge them. Start hitting their sources of money and assassinating their leadership. When the other gangs sense weakness, they'll dogpile them in the criminal equivalent of an Omega Order (which looks very much like an actual Omega Order writ small,) and tear them apart, co-opting any of their stuff that they can use.


You especially don't want to piss in the face of guy who's just told you he can cook up a metric assload of better-than-your-product in a week. If he can do that in a week, he can cook up a few hundred kilos of C12 in a month. At which point, the weather forecast for the parts of the city where you operate your businesses becomes "Rainy with a chance of BOOM."


So really, it's much, much better to just take the damn deal.

On the Runner's side, it's better to make the deal like this through your friendly syndicate. It helps to have an 'in' - as was mentioned, you could probably cold-buy your way into the Vory's good graces by donating a haul of product to the Vory's funds. If you're chummy with the Ancients, call your Ancients contact and tell them you want to make a lot of money by making the Ancients a shitload of money, etcetera.

[KarmaInferno]

Who said that the players would win? In a fight between them and a mega they will, almost certainly, loose. The thing is that they would cost the megacorp a whole lot of nuyen, large numbers of hard to replace assets, public embarrassment, and the perception of strength. Most of the time it's simply not worth the fight.

So most of the time a megacorp won't actively try to get a team of prime runners particularly pissed at them.

It's very much a "kill them all and salt the earth" or "bribe them to deal with our enemies" situation for the mega-corps. Most of the time it's better to bribe them to harm their enemies; i.e. hirer the team to do a run against an enemy. Often times the mega-corp can even end up making a profit on the whole deal.

The one thing they can be assured of is that going to war against a runner team will not be profitable.

Were we necessarily talking elite Prime Runners, though?

This suggests another question, however: Presumably, to get to Prime Runner status, a given elite team will have long experience with betrayal, both on the receiving end and the initiating end. Enough to know that adopting the "nuclear" option against a megacorp will result in becoming very dead, even if they manage to obtain a measure of vengeance in the process. I mean, sure, you hurt them, but you're not in a good position to appreciate it if you're a pile of bloody chunks.

Certainly I can see a Prime Runner team attempting to take out the folks most directly responsible for the betrayal, they have a reputation to protect after all.

But being the survivors they must be to get to Prime status, they should also know when to swallow their pride, forget vengeance and get the hell out of dodge. Lay low and stay alive.

Would a Prime Runner team really go to war? I would say not often. Most will have the wisdom to suck it up and move on. It's just biz, really. Only a team with nothing left to live for or backed into a corner is likely to consider it.

Which a good Johnson should know, really. Like a hunter, they should never put their 'runners into a corner like that, even if they intend betrayal. Always leave your quarry thinking they have a way out, even if it's a false hope.




-k

[_Pax._]

And yet, somehow the classic trope for Shadowrun, hell, cyberpunk games in general, is that the employer screws the team.

... and it never ends well for that employer. That's the other half of that trope.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

"No, I'll tell YOU what. Bob, pull back that curtain. Yeah, see all the explosives? Whole room's wired with 'em. And the biomonitors Bob and I are wearing, are the detonators. We so much as come down with the FLU, boom, no more building. So if I die, we ALL die, together.

Now, are we done measuring penises and insulting each other? I really hope so, because I came here with a proposition that would be profitable and fair for BOTH of us, and all you can do is insult me, try to rob me, and threaten my life? Fuck you. I hear you have competition, maybe I should go make THEM the same offer. Because if you still want to do business with me, the price just wentup to forty percent for the first ten batches. I do not let people threaten me, and get away with it.

So, the ball's in your court. Do we deal, do we part ways alive, or do we all go BOOM together?

Oh, and by the way, <name of mafia/yak/etc LT or boss> is going to be pissed that she arranged this face to face between us, and then you tried to screw me. So you might also want to be thinking of how to apologise to HER."


Seriously. We're talking about shadowrunners here, not middle-school kids trying to bully lunch money out of each other. Shadowrunners with the equipment and skills needed to, on a not-irregular basis, take down organised crime bosses. Shadowrunners who more often than not have contacts with a variety of syndicates, often at very high levels.

And a shadowrunner who just told you he has excellent chemistry skills, and a fully-stocked-and-equipped chemistry lab (who could as easily cook up half a metric ton of C12 as produce a large batch of X or Y party drug). And he's come to you politely, seeking to avoid competition and bad blood yet still make money both for him AND YOU.

What kind of idiot tries to hose the place down with testosterone, and shake the runners down, in the face of all that?!?

I am quite curious as to how you got all those explosives into THEIR stronghold prior to the negotiations. (from your little blurb above)

I think that you vastly inflate the cpabailities of a Few 'runners to take down an organization of criminals (or even the Mega's) with vastly more money than you have, vastly more people, etc. I agree that you can hurt them, and you may even be able to take down a boss or two, but you will lose in the end. Shadowrunners exist at the whim of the bigger fish. If you screw around enough with the bigger fish, they will eventually eat you. When that occurrs is vatly dependant upon how much of a liability that you have become. *shrug*

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Have you ever played an SR game where the players said 'fuck it' and started a full on war against an organization? Whether criminal, corporate, religious, governmental, etc. No criminal organization has the wherewithal to survive the experience.

Been there, done that, in all it glory as you have described, and the characters died horribly, after not all that much time. An Organization will ALWAYS have more people, firepower and money than you will. That is just how it is. Will it weaken the organization? Maybe. Enough to have it collapse? Also a Maybe. But that just means an opportunity for some other ORGANIZATION to come in a snap up the spoils of the war. *shrug*

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

If Ares wants a runner team dead and has localized the team they will go in with hundreds of Firewatch operatives in full assault armor, hundreds of high force spirits, hundreds of high end hackers, military air craft and tanks, and hundreds of drones; and still be willing to drop a Thor Shot if it looks like the runners might win. That's all cheaper than the damage that a single motivated team of prime runners could cause to Ares.

See, I disagree with this. Your character will just walk outside one day and die. He will not see it coming and there will be no warning whatsoever. Simple as that. No need for hundreds of Firewatch agents or Spirits. After all, that is how you would solve that particular problem, and Ares has people on the payroll just as good as you are. *shrug*

The reason that Corporations hire Shadowrunners in the first place is NOT becasue they do not have people with the skills needed. They hire you because they want the deniability. Simple as that. If they did not want the deniability, they would use their own assets. *shrug*

[CanRay]

Disreguard.

[ShadowDragon8685]

I am quite curious as to how you got all those explosives into THEIR stronghold prior to the negotiations. (from your little blurb above)

Presumably because you're not stupid enough to walk into their stronghold, you invite a few of their representatives to yours.

But it doesn't have to be a wired building. Allow me to demonstrate.


"No, I'll tell you what. Bob, pull back the curtain over that window. Now, come here, my friend, and take a look out that window. You see that drone up there? Yes you do, the roto-drone with the machine gun? That's my spotter drone. He's in communication with my hitter drones; you can't see them and you're not gonna, no matter how much you try. You'll just have to take my word for it when I tell you they're loaded down with enough Boom to blow you, me, and this entire building, sky-high. Since we're in the heart of Redmond Barrens, I estimate the explosion will inflict about ten million nuyen worth of urban improvement on the area.

"And no, you can tell your hacker not to try. They're not listening to any wireless commands except the command to initiate the strike mission. I can't even call them off myself, they're watching for this meeting to go exactly the way I programmed them to let it go without blowing this building all to hell. If it goes any other way - including the signals from mine or Bob's bio-monitors being disrupted in any way - and that includes jamming, or torture - the strike mission initiates. If we catch the flu - hell, if we just feel particularly threatened - the strike mission initiates.

"Oh, and guess what happens if you jam, or shoot down, my spotter? If you guessed 'the strike mission initiates,' then you win a prize. Here, have five nuyen on me, that's your prize. Oh, and in case you're thinking of following us out of here when we walk out, very much alive and unharmed, they're going to be watching. Guess what happens if you follow us? If you guessed 'The strike mission initiates,' you're right!

"By now, your little pissant hedge-mage has sent up a spirit to try and find my strike drones. Go ahead, call him. His spirit just got fragged on the astral by my astral overwatch. Oh, and all of the drones? They're equipped with FABIII sensors. If those hush puppies go off, you bet your ass the strike mission initiates. So are we, so even if you're thinking about having someone try to mind control us, think again, because if anything particularly magical happens to us, well... You get the idea.

"And in case you were thinking of doublecrossing us, bear in mind that we've done our homework. We've done our legwork. Double crossing us will be very, very expensive, even if you manage to wipe out me, and Bob, and the other guys you don't know about, in one hit. I'm not going to tell you the full details, but I will say that they include full details of your operations - your rosters, the gangs on your payroll - and that includes the ones whom you flipped into working from you but are still taking money from the mafia - your places of business, your mules, your cook-houses, your front operations... They go broadband. Lone Star. Knight Errant. The Mob, the Yaks, the Triads, the Seoulpa Rings, the Ancients, the Spikes, and frigging Humanis Policlub, all of them get all of that information if you doublecross us, here or elsewhere. And of course, the strike mission initiates, though not necessarily here.

"Now, you've insulted us, you've issued threats to us, when we came to you with an offer, a deal, and it was a good one. I am now altering the deal: every man in this building is going to place every weapon and credstick he has on his person into that duffel bag Bob is now emptying of your product, that's our 'time and trouble' bonus.. We're going to sell to you, and for the first eight weeks, you're going to buy at fifty percent of street value, not thirty. And you're going to like it, because I have the kind of shit they can't even get in Viet Nam these days. Alternatively, if you don't want to buy from us, that's fine; cool. We respect your right to choose not to do business with us. Someone else will want to buy our product, that's better than yours. Gotta love the free market there, chummer. But we will be taking your guns and your pocket change for the insult of your threats. Do I make myself clear, chummer?

"Oh, but what's that, you say? What's to stop me from initiating the strike mission on this building after we walk out of here? Well, physically, nothing, I guess. You'll just have to take my word for it that I'm an honorable man and when I strike a bargain, whether it's 'your cash, for me, my dope for you,' or 'hand me all your guns and money and you get to go home alive,' I keep it. Alternatively, you could go with 'it would be stupid of me to blow up my new business partners.' Up to you."


Runners may not be able to stop a gang or a syndicate from killing them, but properly prepared Runners can make them regret it.

I think that you vastly inflate the cpabailities of a Few 'runners to take down an organization of criminals (or even the Mega's) with vastly more money than you have, vastly more people, etc. I agree that you can hurt them, and you may even be able to take down a boss or two, but you will lose in the end. Shadowrunners exist at the whim of the bigger fish. If you screw around enough with the bigger fish, they will eventually eat you. When that occurrs is vatly dependant upon how much of a liability that you have become. *shrug*

You only lose if you persist past the point where you should vanish. You can hit them, take out bosses, and vanish, having gotten your satisfaction and materially damaged them without them being able to strike back. Also, you're assuming that the Runners don't have bigger fish backing them.

[Emperor Tippy]

Were we necessarily talking elite Prime Runners, though?

Because that is what PC's right out of char generation using the standard build rules are.

Would a Prime Runner team really go to war? I would say not often. Most will have the wisdom to suck it up and move on. It's just biz, really. Only a team with nothing left to live for or backed into a corner is likely to consider it.

I never said that it happened often. It doesn't. But it's always sitting there as an option and it's one of the things that keeps whomever the Runners are dealing with somewhat honest. Are they really willing to frag the face on the expectation that his teammates won't go insane with rage and do everything in their power to bring down whatever entity is responsible? Sure, most of the time the team will let it go with a bit of localized vengeance. But perhaps the team were all brothers and sisters and they take killing one of their own as the gravest possible insult, to be met with the total destruction of the individuals responsible and everyone they represent.

I am quite curious as to how you got all those explosives into THEIR stronghold prior to the negotiations. (from your little blurb above)

Why in the world would you think that you went into their stronghold? And there is always taking a canister of Ringu in with you.

I think that you vastly inflate the cpabailities of a Few 'runners to take down an organization of criminals (or even the Mega's) with vastly more money than you have, vastly more people, etc. I agree that you can hurt them, and you may even be able to take down a boss or two, but you will lose in the end.

You vastly overestimate the intelligence and resiliency of organized criminal entities. Most are held together by the will of a few individuals, kill them and the entire entity will tear it's self apart in a succession fight.

Shadowrunners exist at the whim of the bigger fish. If you screw around enough with the bigger fish, they will eventually eat you. When that occurrs is vatly dependant upon how much of a liability that you have become. *shrug*

Shadowrunners of the PC's level are the big fish. A team of prime runners is the most deadly and capable group operating in the under world. Criminal gangs exist at the sufferance of the runner teams, not the other way around. If a runner team wants a criminal gang destroyed then it has the ability to carry out that destruction.

There is nothing stopping a runner team from seeding the entire barrens with stealth surveillance assets that are feeding into a stealth LZ-2065 with an anti ship laser on board that is circling 50,000 feet up and 10 kilometers away. Whenever the surveillance assets identify a member of the gang, said individual explodes with no visual or auditory clue as to what caused his death. A mega corp can counter such activities, a criminal gang can't.

Been there, done that, in all it glory as you have described, and the characters died horribly, after not all that much time.

Then the characters were either idiots or had bad luck.

An Organization will ALWAYS have more people, firepower and money than you will. That is just how it is.

None of that is relevant. You have to localize and track the runner team before you can bring those people, that firepower, and that money to bare against them. If the runner team is remotely competent then you won't be able to localize them without the assets of a mega-corporation.

See, I disagree with this. Your character will just walk outside one day and die. He will not see it coming and there will be no warning whatsoever. Simple as that. No need for hundreds of Firewatch agents or Spirits. After all, that is how you would solve that particular problem, and Ares has people on the payroll just as good as you are. *shrug*

No, you just assassinated the human form drone made to look like me. But let's suppose you managed to assassinate the runner in question. You still have to contend with the rest of his team, which is now out for revenge.

If you want to fight runners then you have to kill the entire team at once, picking them off one by one is doomed to failure.

The mega has also found that all kinds of incriminating and embarrassing information has just appeared all over the matrix and doesn't seem possible to wipe out. Every runner team will find tons of valuable blackmail information and will have it set to go public if they die.

The reason that Corporations hire Shadowrunners in the first place is NOT becasue they do not have people with the skills needed. They hire you because they want the deniability. Simple as that. If they did not want the deniability, they would use their own assets. *shrug*

No, they hirer runners because they are deniable, because they are better than all but their best, and because they are cheaper. Every mega has one to two complete teams on par with prime runners. The skill set is not common, having it combined with the mindset and personality need is even less common, having that along with a team that can function together is an order of magnitude rarer.

[Glyph]

How effective the runners can be against a megacorporation really depends on metagame factors - how devious the players are, how devious the GM is, and how much GM fiat can happen without the players walking. Personally, I agree with those advocating that the runners, with careful planning, can potentially cripple an enemy organization to the point that the other sharks close in. The book Hardwired, by Walter Jon Williams, was basically this. The biggest problem the runners have is that their ability to fade into the shadows is dependent on a network of people supporting them with fake IDs, gear, etc. and those people can be compromised. On the flip side, those people are often not as vulnerable as they might seem, because they are either affiliated with criminal syndicates themselves, or have lots of connections. Leaning on Bob the fixer to get to his team might get Bob's buddy the Oyabun pissed and Bob's other three shadowrunner teams coming after you.

But this is the kind of thing that can result in bad blood or arguments if everyone is not on board with the game going in that direction. The problem is that both sides are vulnerable to logical tactics that are extremely unfair and difficult to defend against, and which can suck the fun from the game.

[lorechaser]

Been there, done that, in all it glory as you have described, and the characters died horribly, after not all that much time. An Organization will ALWAYS have more people, firepower and money than you will. That is just how it is. Will it weaken the organization? Maybe. Enough to have it collapse? Also a Maybe. But that just means an opportunity for some other ORGANIZATION to come in a snap up the spoils of the war. *shrug*

There are plenty of actual historical cases that represent both sides of that, though. Small guerrilla organizations *have* won in the past against much larger groups with more people, more firepower, and more money (or at least fought them to a stand-still). But there's also a lot of times that superior firepower meant a quick win.

[All4BigGuns]

Hate to break it to ya, Tippy, but starting characters aren't Prime Runners. Using BP, you'd probably need either 600 or 700 points to build a Prime Runner, and using the Karma Generation, probably around 1200 to 1300 points. They're experienced Runners at 400, but that's only having a few runs under their belt so that they're not wet-behind-the-ears newbs to the shadows.

[Emperor Tippy]

Hate to break it to ya, Tippy, but starting characters aren't Prime Runners. Using BP, you'd probably need either 600 or 700 points to build a Prime Runner, and using the Karma Generation, probably around 1200 to 1300 points. They're experienced Runners at 400, but that's only having a few runs under their belt so that they're not wet-behind-the-ears newbs to the shadows.

Not according to the core rulebook. Under the rules a 400 BP character a day out of character generation is a prime runner.

[lorechaser]

Not according to the core rulebook. Under the rules a 400 BP character a day out of character generation is a prime runner.

Given that a 400 BP character can fairly easily have a 5 or 6 in an attribute and a 6-9 effective in a skill, you're at least fairly close.

Top tier runners probably have a lot *more* skills, but I doubt they're much better at their core skill than a 400 bp.

[thorya]

Back to the topic of the thread. I think the safest get rich quick scheme for a character costs almost no BP.

Step 1. Take the Day Job Quality and Sinner.

Step 2. Work for Ares.

Step 3. Take Damien Knight as a Loyalty 6 Contact.

Step 4. As soon as the game starts ask for a promotion.

Step 5. Enjoy your cushy desk job. How much do you think a high level executive for Ares makes in a month? (100,000 nuyen? 300,000 nuyen? + stock options and an expense account. Argue with your GM about realism and negotiate a reasonable salary) No rolls necessary.

(Step 6. Deny that shadowrunners exist. Step 7. Refuse to talk to the other player's characters because the official corporate line is that they're not real. Step 8. Roll to process files and fill out employee evaluations. Step 9. Learn to size up which employees are likely to survive in the shadows and hold a grudge. Step 10. Fire someone else.)

[Draco18s]

11. Roll in giant pile of money

[CanRay]

11. Roll in giant pile of money Stock Certificates.

Fixed that for you. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Not according to the core rulebook. Under the rules a 400 BP character a day out of character generation is a prime runner.

Care to share where you think that you got that? I have never seen any indication of such text in the Core Book at all...