How much Nuyen can a runner make without running Options

[StealthSigma]

Splitting the profits with my entire team is 100% all right by me. And if the guy is a pissant, he can always go for option 3: Flip on the guys who sent him to his death and come work for me. You're also neglecting the probability that if they sent a disposable pissant, he's not gonna be able to kill me no matter what. They were probably expecting some high school chemistry teacher, they got Runners.

I did not. You assured your own death with your suicide ultimatum. All he has to do is ensure those preprogrammed drones go ahead and follow their programming and you nuke yourself. Did you not pay attention the god damn scenario you setup?

[ShadowDragon8685]

And yet, how are you defining Better Stuff in a game that does not have that particular distinction? Boggles the mind it does.

Presumably, we're assigning a Rating (per kilogram) to the drugs, same as with explosives. The Rating would reduce the actual amount necessary to constitute one "dose," thus increasing the profit per-kilogram.

[ShadowDragon8685]

I did not. You assured your own death with your suicide ultimatum. All he has to do is ensure those preprogrammed drones go ahead and follow their programming and you nuke yourself. Did you not pay attention the god damn scenario you setup?

And if that happens, everything I have on them goes broadband.

Their organization will be dead inside of a month, with its members variously locked up or whacked or extracted.

[StealthSigma]

And if that happens, everything I have on them goes broadband.

Their organization will be dead inside of a month, with its members variously locked up or whacked or extracted.

That is rather doubtful. Who is really going to go after it? Lone Star? Give me a break. They'll "look into it" and find that most of the information "were deadends" but there were a "few leads" that did lead to "some arrests". Because the crime syndicate will have greased the palms and along with the bribe toss a few minor fish to Lone Star as sacrificial lambs.

The mega's won't do anything about it. Criminal syndicates are useful to them as long as they stay out of their business. Do you really think the black market can be sustained by shadowrunners alone? It couldn't and not with the quality of gear that runners need to take on some of the more complex missions and hits. It's in their best interest that the black market keeps operating so their deniable assets can keep operating.

Other runners are going to go after the syndicate? Doubtful. Why would they even care? You're the one that decided to go after a syndicate with your own personal reasons. Now they might be inclined to do something if it looked like the syndicate all of a sudden started whacking runners but given that runners are more savvy than the average joe I would doubt they would believe this was unprovoked.

--

The costs are relevant for the organization, if the comparison is between employing a number of house chemists, or buying the drugs a runner could cook up. Costs are even more relevant if their own labs get raided by Knight Errant or the like once in a while, as a new lab is expensive.

The costs aren't relevant and you're talking about BCDR at that point. The capital costs have already been invested. Once they have been invested they do not need to be reinvested to continue operating. That is precisely what makes them capital costs. Whenever you talk about capital costs the thing you look at is how long you anticipate it will take to recuperate the cost. So the syndicate already has the facilities and personnel and since payment is on piece rate there's no difference between the runner and the grunts already working it as long as quota is being met. In fact, the grunts are preferable in this regard because you can lose 1 grunt and lose 33% of your production capacity whereas losing the runner costs you 100% if you employ just him. Given their rather hazardous line of work I wouldn't want to be staking the entirety or significant portions of my production on runners.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Presumably, we're assigning a Rating (per kilogram) to the drugs, same as with explosives. The Rating would reduce the actual amount necessary to constitute one "dose," thus increasing the profit per-kilogram.

So, House Rules then? Since a dose is a spefic rating, you have no actual idea how it was rated prior to it being cut to the level it currently is in the book. At that point it is handwavium... *shrug* (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[_Pax._]

Also, you're neglecting to mention that my "crass and bullying style of negotiation" is after they've already responded to a very good deal with a gun pointed in my face and an attempt to rob me.

This. Very much this. That threat just put your reputation as a shadowrunner on the line. Some pissant gets away with robbing you of stuff with a street value of maybe a quarter million nuyen, and you let him walk away still breathing ...? Kiss goodbye to that rep of yours (represented by gaining a point or two of notoriety).

Is it dangerous? Yes.

Could it blow up in your face? Yes.

Should you do it anyway? YES ... or else, get out of the biz and go find a respectable job flipping soy-burgers for McHugh's. Because seriously, if you don't have titanium cojones, then shadowrunning is not an appropriate career choice.

[KarmaInferno]

And if that happens, everything I have on them goes broadband.

Their organization will be dead inside of a month, with its members variously locked up or whacked or extracted.

So, who exactly would go after them?

The cops?

Remember this is a world where even the law enforcement is privately owned. And can be bought.

Most of the people with the means to do something about the organization either won't care or will find it more profitable to work with them.




-k

[CanRay]

Hell, look at Shadowrun Missions Season 4, where you can have one of the contacts (Detective Tosh) "massage" records on situations. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Of course, the smug bastard will want something in return, as well as the nuyen you'll be giving to the "Knight Errant Widows and Orphans Fund". (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

[Sid Nitzerglobin]

And yet, it is not really SHADOWRUN at that point, it is Criminal Endeavor Number 2. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
He is running a Criminal Organization, rather than Running the Shadows for Unknown Benefactors. He is an Employer/Supplier, rather than a Shadow Employee. They are NOT the same thing at all...

But Yes, the game would be interesting indeed, with Plot Hooks aplenty, it is just not a Shadowrun Game.

If the game is using Shadowrun rules, set in the Shadowrun setting, it's a Shadowrun game IMHO. Whether the characters spend their time cooking steaks for Johnsons at the Eye of the Needle, cooking betameth for the Yakuza/Mafia/etc., running merc ops in Amazonia, selling/modding/repairing cars/armor/guns/cyberware, extracting R&D wizkids/technomancers from Renraku enclaves, selling meat to Tanamous, hacking NeoNET super nodes for uber paydata, setting trolls on fire for the glory of Humanis in Puyallup, smuggling Laés out of Cara'Sir, fighting the man in Berlin, pimping elf runaways on a street corner in Tacoma, sculpting couture matrix personas for the rich and clueless in Bellevue, etc ad infinitum... doesn't really matter as long as the players and GM are having fun.

I personally like the Day Job quality for a lot of characters. Kinda helps me flesh out their concept and background and in many cases is actually something they enjoy doing. Helps provide RP hooks during runs and potential ideas for other sessions that aren't really runs at all as well. Having a relatively dependable/steady cash stream to (help) pay the rent lets them be a little more selective in how they handle runs as well.

Different strokes and all though.

[Midas]

If I were GMing a campaign right now and my players said "We want to make tons of drugs, and sell them. We should have the skills to come up with enough to sell it for a million nuyen, even if we only get 20% of the street price" ... you know what, the answer I'd give them wouldn't be "no, that's not shadowrunning so you can't do it".

The answer I'd give them would be "have you watched much Breaking Bad? Have you got a good grip on the ramifications, complications, and consequences of that action would be? Yes? Fine, buckle up, 'cause it's gonna be a heck of a ride."

And then I'd get down to brass tacks, and write the whole thing up as a scenario. Or more likely, a whole string of scenarios. Something I can intersperse into their typical shadowruns ... and perhaps have the whole thing slowly escalate to the point where it occupies the majority of their time and attention.

I don't think this comment from Pax got enough love. If any of my players decided to try and make any money on the side, this is how I would do it as well. Breaking Bad is a great source for GM ideas along this line, from trouble with sourcing raw materials to the troubles with the different tiers of criminal organizations the protagonists come across.

I think the trouble with the OP's question is that, by the book calculations aside, about how the gameworld ecosystem reacts to the players plans. If a PC is designed primarily as a shadow runner (with all the BP sink that entails), any "side" money making skills/equipment they take will be fairly low-barrier to NPCs as well. Syndicates can (and probably do) train up their own chemists - they will be more loyal, easy to control and easier to kill than an upstart runner team. Most talismongers will probably make a lot of the radicals they use themselves, especially the more expensive ones such as gold. Competition among existing chemists/talismongers for markets of high-profit items will be more intense than the lower profit ones, and raw materials may be hard to get (especially for someone trying to break into the market).

If PCs start throwing too much of their starting BP at skills, equipment and contacts for the side business (for instance, the 200K chemistry lab being talked about would take up 4/5 a character's starting max resources), then they are probably no longer shadow runners, and we start going down the road towards Breaking Bad Run or Grand Theft Auto Run or Talismonger Run. If the GM is game it could be fun, unlike TJ and Karma I don't think such campaigns are "not playing Shadow Run" per se, but if the GM is planning a traditional run based game he would be within his rights to tell the player "That's a nice NPC chemist/Chop Shop contact, now design a shadow runner for the game.".

Naturally the PCs could always invest in chemistry lab or whatever as a money-making side business in game (I for one think this sort of initiative should be encouraged rather than slapped down), but any good GM will treat this as a hook for plot ideas rather than a licence to print money on the character sheet.

[Midas]

Any runner who would meet a potential enemy on the enemy's own territory, is an idiot and deserves what they have coming to them.
Any group of runners who can'tinfiltrate a pre-selected "neutral territory" site to make a few "extra installations", should get out of the biz before their parents call them home for supper.

It depends on the GM and the playstyle, but I would say that any runner who won't meet the mob on their own territory to parley won't be doing business with them. Of course they will need an appropriate contact or a number of palms greased to broker the agreement, but then as long as they are respectful and not too uppity (or give crass ultimatums) they won't be gunned down like dogs either.

Even in cases where the exchange of goods for cash takes place on "neutral" territory, the mob will likely be doing exactly the same things as the runners, as well as sweeping the area for any "installations" the runners may have placed. Most times though, the mob will likely make the "neutral territory" a public place like a restaurant in their neigbourhood, where the runners would find it a lot harder to infiltrate and make their own.

Casing and lacing the meet site is not just something done by PCs, you know? The mob will be taking just as many precautions, and will always try and tilt the playing field to their advantage. The PCs are the ones that want to do biz with the mob not the other way around, and most non-enabler GMs will play organized crime intelligently enough to use this fact to their advantage.

[Midas]

Again, I know what you're doing here, but the entire point of this thread is that there is a Runner, who wants to stay a Runner, and not go corporate by taking the day job and rolling to process files.I am slightly mystified at how anathema this seems to be to the majority of Dumpshock. I'm tempted to do some pop psychology, but I can't imagine it would end well.

It seems like the Runners themselves would have a pretty reasonable idea of how much money they're *not* making by choosing their path. For instance, I know approximately what a contract software coder makes. Before I took my current position, I looked at what I would make there, how much stress there would be, and how much I'd enjoy my job, and compared it against those same parameters if I spent six months refamiliarizing myself with whatever the popular coding language at the time was, and then started doing contract work. I wasn't planning to do that, as I wasn't interested in becoming a codeslinger for hire. But it was nice to know what my point of comparison was. This is the same kind of idea.

If your Runner is the "ignorance is bliss" type, that's fine. But some Runners might not be. If your Runner is an "I run for the money" type, then they should know what the money is in context. If they run for other reasons, then this isn't entirely relevant, but *still* provides a point of reference. "I want you to kill Damien Knight, and I'll give you 100k Nuyen." "Wow! That's amazing! 100k for a job that will most certainly result in my death!? Listen, *Bud* if I wanted to take a job that would kill me, I'd deal drugs in Azzie turf for a year. I'd make more, and enjoy my life a lot more besides."

As far as I am aware RAW does not go into details of salary structure in the corporate world, and from the various "my mage could walk into a 200K/year wage mage job" threads I think a lot of dumpshockers would over-estimate the salary their special snowflake characters could make if they went the corporate route.

To me, your point on intangibles such as stress levels is on the money in this case. As I think I previously mentioned, in a dystopian cyberpunk future working for the man does not equate to a cushy 9 to 5 job (there is a reason they are called wage slaves, after all), so the intangibles make direct comparison of financial compensation problematic. For the record, my rule of thumb for salaries is derived from lifestyle costs - menial/low skill jobs would pay around 3,000 nuyen a month, slightly higher skill or experience 7-10,000, management 15K and up, but YMMV.

Your wage mage might get a pretty good salary in corpdom, but even given the leniency corps might give to their ilk they are still probably working long hours (sometimes perhaps being asked to do nightshift as a security mage), possibly engaged in morally abhorrent magical research etc. Your HTRT would-be sammie would also be paid reasonably well (although perhaps not astronomically so, after all there are a lot of ex-soldiers looking for work), but would be on constant stand-by during their long shift. HTRT work may also be dangerous, and some of their missions morally ambiguous to say the least. Skilled hackers (software designers) and riggers (spiders) could also earn a reasonably good wage in their respective fields, and faces could become high-powered corp negotiators and salesmen, the list goes on.

Compare such long working hours and having to follow orders/live the corp enclave straitjacket with the runner's lifestyle. It may be dangerous, but it is definitely exciting and, depending on how often you run, gives you a lot of free time to lounge around and enjoy your money. This means that for a 10K run with 2-3 days planning and legwork, a PC would clear the monthly salary of a middle-manager working 70 to 80 hour weeks. In this context, the lures of running become so much more apparent.

[Midas]

Yes we have. That was the point early one: we can make better stuff than yours, which you can either (a) sell for more per weight, or (b) cut to produce much more weight without losing potency compared to the stuff you have now, or © sell less of for the same price.

Also, you're neglecting to mention that my "crass and bullying style of negotiation" is after they've already responded to a very good deal with a gun pointed in my face and an attempt to rob me. In the Shadows, there are three appropriate ways to respond to a threat like that: (a) immediate capitulation, (b) immediate violence, and © immediate demonstration of the overwhelming superiority of your position which the other guy has failed to grasp.

(a) is out of the question, I'm not letting some punk-ass drug dealers stick a gun in my face, rob me of 50,000+ nuyen worth of product and be happy for my life. My street cred would take a nose-dive.
(b) is not preferable, since I still want money, and I'd rather initiate a war with them if it can be at all avoided.
© then is the preferred outcome. It's nothing more than business; turning the usual paradigm for the drug syndicate on its head, admittedly, but they've been on the giving end of such an "I don't think you grasp how much we have you by the balls here" treatment to know what the proper responses are. They don't have a © option since we've just exercised it, and in doing so, we've outlined that the repercussions of exercising (b) will be very, very unprofitable for them at best, literally and figuratively fatal at worst.

And if I catch them doing legwork on me (and I will, because I'll be doing legwork on legwork efforts against me,) I'll put together a dossier on their least profitable enterprise and email it to Lone Star, Knight Errant, the Mafia, Yaks, Triads, Seoupla Rings, Ancients, Spikes, and Humanis Policlub, as well as CCing the syndicate themselves, and in the body of the CC (but not the others) I'll write "I hope you didn't think I was bluffing. Stop digging into me, or I'm going to assume you're getting too close and go with the nuclear option. There will be no further warnings. Do we understand one another?"

I am not sure why you are claiming your product would be "better" than that of the competition, unless you pile test successes into increasing the "quality" at the expense of yield (if this is even possible under the scope of the rules). Either way, there is no reason your highly-skilled NPC chemist can't do this as well, as I mentioned above using the Chemistry skill to cook up drugs is a fairly low-barrier business model.

Although others did, I never mentioned the syndicate pulling the guns on the PCs, and said several times that if the PCs went about things in the right way this would not happen in my game.

I have 2 problems with your legwork assertions. Firstly, the syndicate will always be switching up and changing their routines in order to stay one step ahead of the law (they will have their informants of course, but will still need to take precautions against lone gun investigators), rivals and opportunist thieves, so even if you could collate the info in the first place it probably wouldn't stay valid for long.

Secondly, as for your "I will be doing legwork on legwork against me" assertion, I find it funny that you think they won't be taking exactly the same precautions. What's good for the goose is good for the gander. Professional Johnsons will do it for sure (hell, they probably have such "cease and desist" protocols in place for the fake data trail they gave the PCs just to lend it authenticity). Small-time street gangs are probably not sophisticated enough to do such things, but organized crime almost certainly will.

[FuelDrop]

...Small-time street gangs are probably not sophisticated enough to do such things, but organized crime almost certainly will.

That's why they call it organized!

[hermit]

If the game is using Shadowrun rules, set in the Shadowrun setting, it's a Shadowrun game IMHO.

Unfortunatly, the setting involves the whole 'pawn of corporate and criminal interests' thing as a core element. That's why they're called Shadowrunners, you know. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[Nevermind]

First of all I’ll try to get a bit back to topic.

How much Nuyen can a runner make when they aren't running?

And the answer is ‘it depends’.

First of all, are we talking about off time stuff, rolling a bunch of dice (or buy successes), cashing the money, don’t give a further thought? Or is this a possible base for gameplay?
If it’s the first one, do your math, …
Mr Famous cashes as per rules.
Mr Bouncer/Chef/Mechanic/Programmer gets money per hours, depending where he hired and what’s his skill.
Mr Drugcook/Telesmacrafter checks what stuff he crafts and what his payout is per piece. Then you have to check how much time it takes to get hands on the base material, craft the stuff, and fence it. But as it’s the (very) save route, ensuring no heat from cartels/cops or gangers (keep in mind this should be NO adventure hook, only easy peasy off time), cash at end of the month will be less than the numbers in this thread make you hope for, as sure route takes a lot of time . Personal opinion: 1 Crafting Hit: Around 1 K, 2 Crafting Hits: up to 5 K, 3 Crafting Hits around 10K and so on.

Legal Biz: Same as Drugcook , only less fencing, more taxes.


If it’s real part of the game, with plot hooks, Ganger raiding the drug lab, Fence tries to cross the crafter and all the ‘Breaking Bad’ stuff, there can be a lot more net cash, but this can easily become an full time job.
If all are ok with this, play this kind of alternate (non Shadowrun) Story. (yes with SR rules and within SR world setting)

[Sid Nitzerglobin]

Unfortunatly, the setting involves the whole 'pawn of corporate and criminal interests' thing as a core element. That's why they're called Shadowrunners, you know. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

The setting also includes inter-governmental intrigue, drug dealing, pimping, all out warfare, anarchists, treasure hunting, piracy, smuggling, and all kinds of other potentially interesting roleplaying opportunities. Not sure why the PCs should need to spend all (or any) of their RP time doing traditional runs for some outside entity to be considered a Shadowrun game, but JMO.

[hermit]

The setting also includes inter-governmental intrigue, drug dealing, pimping, all out warfare, anarchists, treasure hunting, piracy, smuggling, and all kinds of other potentially interesting roleplaying opportunities.

Those are alternate campaign concepts, yes. Much like there's Space Marines in Dark Heresy's universe, yet you're not 'supposed' to play them except either in the Deathwatch Spin-Off or under Ascension rules.

Not sure why the PCs should need to spend all (or any) of their RP time doing traditional runs for some outside entity to be considered a Shadowrun game, but JMO.

Because if they don't it is an alternate campaign setting, going by the books. If you're being really obnoxious about the whole "it's in a book so it's true" thing, which is what we do here, right? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Alternate campaigns are, of course, still in the Shadowrun universe. They're just not necessarily a campaign of (standard) Shadowrun, depending on how obnoxious you are there.

[DnDer]

I haven't been part of the community long, so I don't know if my opinion counts for anything, but there is one problem I've noticed in these scenarios that I don't feel that anyone has really touched on.

Everything is contingent upon the PC being Jason Bourne at the core, liberally dipped in Michael Westen, drizzled with Xanatos, and topped with a crumbling of James Bond, all with an unlimited operating budget prior to even making the "business proposal."

On top of that, it assumes a perfect textbook economy that benefits the players solely. Because God knows that there's never, ever going to be a GM out there who says, "Weeeellllll... There's something happening on the streets, and you only make 10% of your usual take, and it doesn't matter how many successes you bought, or how big your DP was. The market just didn't bear your prices. ~shrug~"

Fickle GMs wouldn't be an issue, if this had been a by-the-numbers mechanics discussion. But then we got a long example of "everything the GM just said to me, I say nuh-uh because I out-legwork THEIR legwork," and the whole thing disintegrates into an escalation you don't see except in games of Amber Diceless. Because you go down this path that people like ShadowDragon or Tippy have tried to outline, you eventually end up with a Legwork Gap.

Maybe I'm missing the point altogether, though. It just seems like this whole thing has gone from a thought exercise about mechanics to a one-upsmanship competition, and we're no longer trying to answer the original question?

[LurkerOutThere]

I haven't been part of the community long, so I don't know if my opinion counts for anything, but there is one problem I've noticed in these scenarios that I don't feel that anyone has really touched on.

Well i did just want to say welcome, and don't worry about that, no ones opinion really counts for anything. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) But yes I think you have some valid points many of these scenarios people have for making money presume no outside factors will affect them. The simple logic is if it WERE that easy everyone else would do it, so there would be no reason to Shadowrun.

I am one of those fickle GM's when my players want to do something clever I generally take them through it and work out with them what new spin they'd bring to the process that literally no one else could have. This applies to people finding ways to "win" at hacking, or "win" at making money.

But honestly at my tables I don't have to put up with stuff at my tables because I actually pay my runners like professional criminals doing important and dangerous things rather then hobo's looking for their next nukit burrito and their next bottle of sterno. If their too busy living it up or healing off the damage from their last run they don't want to frag around with cooking betameth in their bathtubs.

[_Pax._]

I haven't been part of the community long, so I don't know if my opinion counts for anything,[...]

Your opinion counts for just as much as anyone elses. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) Oh, and welcome to the loony bin!

Everything is contingent upon the PC being Jason Bourne at the core, liberally dipped in Michael Westen, drizzled with Xanatos, and topped with a crumbling of James Bond, all with an unlimited operating budget prior to even making the "business proposal."

Well. By the time the PC runner can afford a 200,000¥ Chemistry Facility, really they probably should be that good.

On top of that, it assumes a perfect textbook economy that benefits the players solely. Because God knows that there's never, ever going to be a GM out there who says, "Weeeellllll... There's something happening on the streets, and you only make 10% of your usual take, and it doesn't matter how many successes you bought, or how big your DP was. The market just didn't bear your prices. ~shrug~"

Sure. And some market fluctuations can happen. But of course, the scenarios presume that you're making "whatever sells this week/month/etc".

Fickle GMs wouldn't be an issue, if this had been a by-the-numbers mechanics discussion. But then we got a long example of "everything the GM just said to me, I say nuh-uh because I out-legwork THEIR legwork," [...]

Um. I think you're reading too much into that. The first scenario presented, painted the runners as hapless, helpless, and subject to being robbed at the whim of whatever patsy or pissant the syndicate bothered sending to meet them. The other scenarios have simply been showign that, with time and effort invested, shadowrunners can be sufficiently capable that trying to step on them for no good reason, is just not profitable, even for the big syndicates.

Because, you know ... by the time you can afford that Chemistry Facility? You're not some street-level n00b scraping just to get by, desperate for (and taking) any jobs thrown your way. You're experienced, capable, and perhaps even wealthy enough to pick and choose who you work for, perhaps even to name your price and make it stick. We're talking about a team that can muster up, say, half a million nuyen of non-shadowrun resources between them, and have decided to (essentially) form their own small criminal organisation.

At that point, they should not be getting blown off by the syndicates. The very fact that the runners have done enough legwork just to know who would be upset by "competition", and instead gone to them first? Should be treated as a nod of respect by that syndicate ... not an opportunity to rob them.

Meanwhile, the runners shuld be smart enough to have some sort of "if you try to screw us it will end badly for you" measure(s) in place. Could be my "we all go boom together" scenario. Could be the "drone artillery strike" scenario. Could be the "we give your enemies a mountain of intel on your ops" scenario. Could be something else entirely. And the runners' reps at that stage of things, should be sufficiently well-established that whichever counter-threat they lay on the table will be immediately credible and believed.

Regardless, no syndicate should be so cosmically stupid as to try and roll the shadowrunners like a couple of wine-soaked bums. Negotiate the hell out of the price, sure. Try a penny-ante robbery, no. And the bigger the syndicate, the less likely stupid stunts like that should be.

[StealthSigma]

By the time the PC runner can afford a 200,000¥ Chemistry Facility, really they probably should be that good.

A starting PC can afford this.

[All4BigGuns]

@StealthSigma: In theory, yeah, they could afford it, but not if they really get anything else like implants, vehicles, weapons and varies other sundries needed to be a decent character--I don't think unaugmented mundane works as well now as it did in Third.

[_Pax._]

A starting PC can afford this.

Perhaps I should clarify that, by adding "(and still be a viable character for traditional shadowrunning)" ...?

[hermit]

I haven't been part of the community long, so I don't know if my opinion counts for anything, but there is one problem I've noticed in these scenarios that I don't feel that anyone has really touched on.

Everything is contingent upon the PC being Jason Bourne at the core, liberally dipped in Michael Westen, drizzled with Xanatos, and topped with a crumbling of James Bond, all with an unlimited operating budget prior to even making the "business proposal."

On top of that, it assumes a perfect textbook economy that benefits the players solely. Because God knows that there's never, ever going to be a GM out there who says, "Weeeellllll... There's something happening on the streets, and you only make 10% of your usual take, and it doesn't matter how many successes you bought, or how big your DP was. The market just didn't bear your prices. ~shrug~"

Fickle GMs wouldn't be an issue, if this had been a by-the-numbers mechanics discussion. But then we got a long example of "everything the GM just said to me, I say nuh-uh because I out-legwork THEIR legwork," and the whole thing disintegrates into an escalation you don't see except in games of Amber Diceless. Because you go down this path that people like ShadowDragon or Tippy have tried to outline, you eventually end up with a Legwork Gap.

Maybe I'm missing the point altogether, though. It just seems like this whole thing has gone from a thought exercise about mechanics to a one-upsmanship competition, and we're no longer trying to answer the original question?

What counts for me is the validity of your points, not your menbership number. Welcome anyway. And no, it's not you who misses several points here.