How much Nuyen can a runner make without running Options

[All4BigGuns]

Wouldn't go so far, personally. It's just SR in the SR world with a different focus. Like the Lone Star campaign setting, or DocWagon, or reporters.
But yes, it sounds plenty interesting. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

All4BigGuns: Please learn the difference between discourse and ad hominem. Thanee wasn't aggressive anywhere and he (she? sounds female) and I merely pointed out that we see things differently. Were does that constitute 'ganging up'? When I re-read that discussion, I see someone interpreting the unwired rules differently (which I honestly did not read up on, so I can't even say, who's right here, if anyone) and that was called as 'Bullshit skills'. I also see someone cherry picking his rules with an apparently lenient GM and trying to sell this as 'the right way', not the other way around.

He isn't the one who started with the snark with the "This is Shadowrun not <insert random other thing here>". The OP created this thread to move away from the first one where people were attacking Tippy, and as soon as Tippy brings in an on-topic suggestion complete with numbers showing how much it could make, then people start with the snarkiness (don't think that's a word, but oh well).

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Could be, but I think he needs to 'take a closer look at the report button' on a good number of you all who seem to be ganging up and attacking him. He may be getting a bit over aggressive, but it's because he's having to defend himself from a barrage of attacks from multiple other posters. Chill out, and please quit trying to tell the guy that he's somehow 'having fun wrong' just because it doesn't jive with your own views.

No one has said he is having Wrong Fun. What has been said is that the Fun he is having is not standard for Shadowrun, and any comparisons are pretty irrelevant between the styles. That is a Big Difference. Or do I have the Wrong topic? I am so confused.

[tsuyoshikentsu]

Nah, you pretty much have the right one. Let me pull up a quote to explain:

Again, this is not what the character (or me as a player) is intertested in, even if he has the skills. He is a Shadowrunner, not a Lab Technician. If you cannot understand that, then I do not know what else to say to you.

The problem I'm seeing here is that in this post, you're telling him what his character should think. I get that, in your games, your characters would never want to do this; clearly, however, the OP is assuming that his character would. Guess whose opinion on the OP's character matters?

Put differently, the OP can be read as "Assume premise A. How much X can we generate from Y?" You're basically saying "Premise A is stupid," which is completely unhelpful to the question being asked.

And by "you," I mean everyone talking about how 'Runners don't do this in their games. Yes, okay, I get it, you all disagree that they should do it, but that is not the premise of this thread. Those of us who are at least interested in the possibility would like to go back to discussing how effectively it can be done without being yelled at about how our characters are thinking wrong in games you all aren't even in.

[KarmaInferno]

You could make tons of money in the SR world doing other stuff besides Shadowrunning.

You could also make tons of money in D&D without adventuring at all.

That really isn't the point of these kinda of games, though.

There's a huge number of moneymaking schemes that would work. It's not like there's some secret technique that's difficult to do. Hell, just go and steal cars to sell them.

But then it stops being Shadowrun.



-k

[tsuyoshikentsu]

So somehow, when I decide to steal cars for a bit instead of talking to Mr. Johnson, I immediately stop rolling D6s and looking for 5s and 6s?

As long as you're playing with the rules, you're playing Shadowrun.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Nah, you pretty much have the right one. Let me pull up a quote to explain:

The problem I'm seeing here is that in this post, you're telling him what his character should think. I get that, in your games, your characters would never want to do this; clearly, however, the OP is assuming that his character would. Guess whose opinion on the OP's character matters?

Put differently, the OP can be read as "Assume premise A. How much X can we generate from Y?" You're basically saying "Premise A is stupid," which is completely unhelpful to the question being asked.

And by "you," I mean everyone talking about how 'Runners don't do this in their games. Yes, okay, I get it, you all disagree that they should do it, but that is not the premise of this thread. Those of us who are at least interested in the possibility would like to go back to discussing how effectively it can be done without being yelled at about how our characters are thinking wrong in games you all aren't even in.

It is not that I am saying the proposal is Stupid. I am saying that implementing the proposal results in the game no longer being about Shadowrun. It is something else, and so asking for comparisons to Shadowrun and earning money in your down time is counter productive. There is no comparison.

Anyways, as KarmaInferno indicated, there are many ways to make more money in the game than the Premise of the game addresses. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

So somehow, when I decide to steal cars for a bit instead of talking to Mr. Johnson, I immediately stop rolling D6s and looking for 5s and 6s?

As long as you're playing with the rules, you're playing Shadowrun.

Actually, at that point, you are just using the System, but you are not actually playing Shadowrun. Now you are playing Grand Theft Auto. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[lorechaser]

At which point you should be taking the Day Job Negative Quality. That is what it is there for. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

I know you were being fecitious, but Day Job is way under paid, and requires SINner and a few other bits.

However, you're right that I am sort of crafting a "Night Job" quality. It would have a higher payout than Day Job, but more risks. And would probably come with a couple neg quals like Distinctive Style or the like.

And re: Standard Fun: There's an argument that, per rules at least, this is Standard Fun. Given that a skill level of 5 is defined as a professional athlete, 6 is Peyton Manning, and 7 is Gretzky, I find it kind of hard to argue. I would contend that we might be better served with 10 point attributes or the like. But that's outside this discussion. But given that a 400 bp runner probably has at least. 5 attribute and a 5 skill, base runners are at least as skilled as NFL players, or corporate VPs. They can certainly have a myriad of reasons to be running, but if their core reason is to make money, they should have a concurrent issue that prevents them from doing so in a legal fashion.

I don't think that's the way most people play it, including me. But it's worth noting that the average runner is pretty above average.

But. Back to the main topic.

If you ignore 40 hits via buying, let's talk averages. 14 dice. On average, that's 4.666666 hits and 2.33333333 1's. I'd bet someone with good stats knowledge could work out how likely you are to glitch and crit glitch per 100 rolls, and how much edge you'd need to reroll it away.

If you accept 40 hits - what can an armorer make with 40 hits? Per the rules, you only need 16 hits to build an intricate item. I don't know where a drone falls exactly, but can it be more than 20 hits to make a car? I don't really have a concept of what 40 hits would do, but I think it's a lot.

[tsuyoshikentsu]

It is not that I am saying the proposal is Stupid. I am saying that implementing the proposal results in the game no longer being about Shadowrun. It is something else, and so asking for comparisons to Shadowrun and earning money in your down time is counter productive. There is no comparison.

Ach, so what ye be sayin' noo is that No True Scotsman would ever play Shadowrun this way?

That doesn't cut it to me. Shadowrun is the system, and by definition anything played with that system is Shadowrun. That's the whole point of what the core book says on page 15: There's no right or wrong way to play this game... and either way, you're still playing.

[StealthSigma]

If you accept 40 hits - what can an armorer make with 40 hits? Per the rules, you only need 16 hits to build an intricate item. I don't know where a drone falls exactly, but can it be more than 20 hits to make a car? I don't really have a concept of what 40 hits would do, but I think it's a lot.

Build tests are always extended. They have a duration and that duration is up to the GM to determine.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Ach, so what ye be sayin' noo is that No True Scotsman would ever play Shadowrun this way?

That doesn't cut it to me. Shadowrun is the system, and by definition anything played with that system is Shadowrun. That's the whole point of what the core book says on page 15: There's no right or wrong way to play this game... and either way, you're still playing.

Patently False...
Just becasue you can use the Shadowrun System to play Star Wars does not make the game Shadowrun. It is Star Wars using the Shadworun System. Likewise, if you are using the Shadowrun System to play Jimmy the Drug Lord, it is not Shadowrun. Shadowrun requires a certain world view and when you go outside of that world view, you lose any resemblance to what Shadowrun is.

I, personally, use Feng Shui to run my Star Wars Games (and also have a Shadowrun and Battle Tech World layout as well, for those times where Pink Mohawk is King)... that does not make those worlds Feng Shui. It makes it Star Wars (Shadowrun or Battletech) using a Feng Shui Interface. The Fluff is not the System. The Fluff is the Structure of the World. The Mecahnics are the system, and they can be independant of the fluff. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Emperor Tippy]

Premises:
- Runners need to have good skills/ware/gear/powers/etc. in order to be able to do shadowruns.
- People with good skills/ware/gear/powers/etc. can usually make money without running the shadows.
- Runners need to have a reason to run the shadows.

I would add in that under the standard PC build rules virtually every player character will have exceptional skills, ware, etc.

Assumption 1
- Money is not the only reason why Shadowrunners run the shadows.

Conclusion 1
- Runners CAN make money without running (doesn't mean they do, but it's possible without breaking the game world).

I would change that to "Money is never the reason why a Shadowrunner is running the shadows, unless he wants 9 figures or more."

The rules make this manifestly possible in a number of ways.

Assumption 2
- Money is the only reason runners run the shadows.
Conclusion 2
- Running the Shadows is the best way for shadowrunners to get money.

This is a manifestly false assumption and a manifestly false conclusion.

This second case can be explained by many things, such as:
1. Shadowrunners make more money running the shadows than doing something else.

Except under the rules they actually don't. Runners can make more money running the shadows but it requires decent payments and not the farce that is Mission payouts. In the games I play in Runners do make more money running than they would doing pretty much anything else but as both a player and GM we are more than willing to throw out 10K pay days for even the most trivial of runs and anything with real difficulty can easily end up with a six or seven figure pay day.

2. Even if they have good skills/ware/powers/gear/etc. runners can't make decent money without running the shadows.

This is again manifestly false.

---
Personally, I prefer a game where runners don't make millions running the Shadows. I like to keep it "street-level" so I consider that:
- Runners are outcasts, just like most SINless. They're dysfunctional people, that no corps will accept as employees. Maybe they're good, but they don't fit the corproate mould, and they're not good enough for the corps to tolerate that.

At the skill level PC runners operate at the corps don't care if you diddle little boys and then torture them to death. Especially if you are a mage or technomancer. And if the PC's were really that dysfunctional then they are unlikely to have acquired their skills and ware in the first place.

- This leaves crime (including doing a legitimate business but doing it illegally). The criminal syndicates control that kind of activities. They won't prevent a runner from doing it, but they'll want their cut. The runner can refuse, but you don't oppose a criminal syndicate for long, even if you're a powerful streetsam or mage.

Except, much like the corps, the syndicates don't really care what you do so long as you provide their cut. Try to move your two hundred thousand worth of drugs on the street and the syndicates will be displeased, sell your 200,000 worth of drugs to the syndicate at 30% of street price (60,000 nuyen) and you will be their best friend.

- This leaves heists/contracts and other "Shadowrunny" jobs. They could do them without any Johnson backing them up (stealing a prototype and selling it to the highest bidder, but it's risky business. With a Johnson, you're pretty sure that you'll be paid for the prototype or that the corp will stop looking for you once they realize that you don't have the prototype and were just a contractor.

There is no reason that the corp should realize anything different whether you have a Johnson or not.

- Runs aren't paid millions, but you can still get a few thousands nuyens for one. And once you're big enough, you can get better paid jobs.

I could walk into any real life city tomorrow and walk out with a job to courier 10K worth of drugs across the nation for a 2K payday upon delivery. This is in real life without any applicable runner skills. Someone with a shadowrunners skill set? A few thousand is chump change.

With these premises, Shadowrunners can't make much money without running. But this is all because of my design choices.

Except your premises are basically made up whole cloth and don't actually stand up to even the most basic of analysis.

A runner could easily say "You know what? I don't want to run against corps and the like, it is way too risky and requires way too much planning. I will instead do street level runs." and then your payments and premises make sense, but without such a decision by the runner they don't.

[tsuyoshikentsu]

I, personally, use Feng Shui to run my Star Wars Games (and also have a Shadowrun and Battle Tech World layout as well, for those times where Pink Mohawk is King)... that does not make those worlds Feng Shui. It makes it Star Wars (Shadowrun or Battletech) using a Feng Shui Interface. The Fluff is not the System. The Fluff is the Structure of the World. The Mecahnics are the system, and they can be independant of the fluff. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

And that was what I was talking about with No True Scotsman: You're saying that a character who wants to spend time making money with his skills isn't a *real* Shadowrunner, despite the fact that this is perfectly possible both in the rules and in the setting.

So, in sum:

1. You're imposing your interpretation of the fluff on everyone else's game.
2. You're ignoring several characters in canon (the aforementioned Kat O' Nine Tails and Turbo Bunny) who are prominent 'Runners that make money in the off hours.
3. You're telling me that if I don't subscribe to your interpretation of the fluff, I'm not playing Shadowrun--even if I'm playing a prepublished adventure in the Shadowrun setting with the Shadowrun rules.

This is a textbook example of the No True Scotsman fallacy.

[Shemhazai]

Also, your drug trick would get you in trouble really fast. You know. With organized crime and you encroaching on their territory.

Exactly. Your enemy list would also include governments, corps, law enforcement, street gangs and smugglers. Being a big player would bring a lot of heat from all sides.

If you want to make any big money legitimately, you had better be a SINner.

This reminds me of a story someone told me about an old edition of D&D. Apparently, there was a rule about earning a small amount of experience points for transcribing scrolls. One character who was able to write sat out a campaign, and spent the time as a scribe. By the end of the campaign, he had more experience points than the characters that went on the campaign! Rules that allow things like that are really lame.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

I would add in that under the standard PC build rules virtually every player character will have exceptional skills, ware, etc.

Except that that statement is untrue. If you choose to build best in the World Runners, maybe, but if you actually build to the game world, then you will see a lot of characters in the 8-12 dp range. Most of my builds start in that range and advance from there (most do not even have skills above a 3 or 4). Yes, you CAN start with 20+ DP in skills, but you really should be asking yourself if you should (Sorry... Hot topic for me, I will try to resist ranting about it). (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

But, as long as you have fun, it doesn't really matter, I guess. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

And that was what I was talking about with No True Scotsman: You're saying that a character who wants to spend time making money with his skills isn't a *real* Shadowrunner, despite the fact that this is perfectly possible both in the rules and in the setting.

So, in sum:

1. You're imposing your interpretation of the fluff on everyone else's game.
2. You're ignoring several characters in canon (the aforementioned Kat O' Nine Tails and Turbo Bunny) who are prominent 'Runners that make money in the off hours.
3. You're telling me that if I don't subscribe to your interpretation of the fluff, I'm not playing Shadowrun--even if I'm playing a prepublished adventure in the Shadowrun setting with the Shadowrun rules.

This is a textbook example of the No True Scotsman fallacy.

If the Character is taking the time to make use of his skills, and makes more money in his off time than his "Shadowrunning Time" he will not actually Shadowrun because he will make more money in other endeavors. At this point, it is not Shadowrun. Shadowrun has very specific fluff that makes it so. If you remove that fluff and do not use it, then it cannot be called Shadowrun. At best, it is a game that uses the Shadowrun System to resolve situations. Again, It is not the smae thing.

1. Actually, I am not. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
2. Neither Turbo Bunny nor Kat of Nine Tails makes money in the Hundreds of Thousands to Millions in their off time (I have yet to see ANY reference to how much they actually make, in fact), as has been advocated here. In fact, the write-up for Turbo Bunny says she works in a small time garage. Hard tro imagine that she makes more money there than running the Shadows. Don't you think?
3. Again, I am not. I am saying that the FLUFF makes the game, not the System. If I play Star Wars using the Shadorun System (or Feng Shui, Or D20, or Whatever), I am NOT PLAYING SHADOWRUN. I am playing Star Wars.

I am sorry, I do not have that particular Textbook. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

I am not saying you cannot make money from skills on the side, I am saying that you are not going to make absurd amounts of money doing so, and apparently you (and Emperor Tippy) seem to be arguing that you can. And in my opinion, that is wrong.

[tsuyoshikentsu]

If the Character is taking the time to make use of his skills, and makes more money in his off time than his "Shadowrunning Time" he will not actually Shadowrun because he will make more money in other endeavors.

There's where you're wrong. You're assuming that the only reason to go on a Shadowrun is money. Let me pull out Attitude--and, incidentally, address your point about Kat O' Nine Tails:

Posted by: Kat o’ Nine Tales

I know what you’re thinking. Why would someone so talented in music as myself want to run in the shadows? Well, you should know by now, money isn’t the only thing to trip people’s triggers. Some want the thrill and the adrenaline rush, others look for ways to “stick it to the man” or want a secret identity. Musicians are no exception.

There you have it, in the canon: People who can and do make more money on their day job go running for the fun of it.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

There's where you're wrong. You're assuming that the only reason to go on a Shadowrun is money. Let me pull out Attitude--and, incidentally, address your point about Kat O' Nine Tails:


There you have it, in the canon: People who can and do make more money on their day job go running for the fun of it.

Never said they could not make money on a day job. Nor did I say you could not run for the fun of it. In fact, there are many runners who make money on a day job. They just do not tend to make a absurd amounts of money on that day job. We have a 'Runner in our group that runs for the hell of it (because he does not really care about the money, and it is fun), doesn't mean he makes millions of Nuyen on the side, which is what I have been continuously commenting against here. You can not care about the money and still be required to run the Shadows to pay the bills; or you can have a bit of money, and run for the hell of it.

Is there an actual writeup of Kat of Nine Tails that tells you her quality of living and how much money she has? If not, then your argument is still vapor-ware. If so, Please let me see it, or tell me in what book I can find it. Personal ego-waving from an in character comment does not a rationale make for allowing crazy amounts of Nuyen to be earned by 'Runners in their downtime.

[Mäx]

If the Character is taking the time to make use of his skills, and makes more money in his off time than his "Shadowrunning Time" he will not actually Shadowrun because he will make more money in other endeavors.

Yes he does, he just doesn't do it because he needs money(just like a multitude of canon runners).

2. Neither Turbo Bunny nor Kat of Nine Tails makes money in the Hundreds of Thousands to Millions in their off time (I have yet to see ANY reference to how much they actually make, in fact), as has been advocated here

Kat flat out says she doesn't run for money in Attitude.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Kat flat out says she doesn't run for money in Attitude.

Does not mean that she is loaded, though... Which this particular topic is apparently about. Making tons of money in your Non-Shadowrunning endeavors, so that you don't have to worry about the minutia and can therefore charge exorbitant prices for your services.

[_Pax._]

That really isn't the point of these kinda of games, though.

Oh, but yes, yes it is! Yu see, if someone finds such not-shadowrun-related activities fun from time to time?

That, Sir, is all that ever has, or ever should, matter. As long as the players are enjoying themselves (and not at the expense of other people), then they are playing the game correctly.

[tsuyoshikentsu]

Does not mean that she is loaded, though... Which this particular topic is apparently about. Making tons of money in your Non-Shadowrunning endeavors, so that you don't have to worry about the minutia and can therefore charge exorbitant prices for your services.

She's the lead singer of an award-winning band that has been on multiple national tours and at least one global one. I am fairly certain this means she's loaded.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

She's the lead singer of an award-winning band that has been on multiple national tours and at least one global one. I am fairly certain this means she's loaded.

But that is nothing but an Assumption on your part. How many Mega Pop Stars, Award Winning Bands, or Mega Movie Stars with Local, National and Global tours/Releases are broke today. A fair amount of them, actually. And this is not the Dystopian World that the 6th World is. I am sure that she MAKES a lot of money, and I am also pretty certain most of it goes right back out the door for things not under her control. There is a difference between making millions and having millions, after all.

But it looks like we are not going to agree on this one. No Worries. As I said before (in this thread or another, I cannot remember), if you are having fun, that is all that matters, even if you are obviously playing a different game than I am . (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[KarmaInferno]

Oh, but yes, yes it is! Yu see, if someone finds such not-shadowrun-related activities fun from time to time?

That, Sir, is all that ever has, or ever should, matter. As long as the players are enjoying themselves (and not at the expense of other people), then they are playing the game correctly.

I never said anything about "correctly" or not. They can be having fun doing this. But if you're stealing cars for a living, or running a talismonger operations, or whatever non-shadowrun job you can imagine to make a living, at that point it's using the Shadowrun rules to... not Shadowrun.

It's built into the damn name of the game, fer chrissakes.

It's like playing a game titled "FIGHT" and deliberately not fighting. You may be using the system, but you're not playing the game.

Again, I'm not talking "right" or "wrong" or even whether it's fun or not. But when you're getting away from what the core of the game revolves around, you've stopped playing the game and are merely using the mechanics to so something else.



-k

[lorechaser]

Does not mean that she is loaded, though... Which this particular topic is apparently about. Making tons of money in your Non-Shadowrunning endeavors, so that you don't have to worry about the minutia and can therefore charge exorbitant prices for your services.

I would suggest that, at least originally, this topic was a thought exercise to see what someone could make using their skills in non-running situations.

What can they do? The suggestion is that they could easily clear 10k nuyen a month doing mundane stuff. How reasonable is that? Could they clear 100k?