Stacking initative boosters, reaction boosters and Initative Pass boosters. Options

[FriendoftheDork]

Hey

After some searches I failed to find any good information on this. What stacks?

Wired Reflexes is said not to stack with other initative boosters
Reaction Enhancers is said to stack.
Synaptic booster... doesen't stack.


So what qualifies as initative booster? Anything that increases your initative directly or indirectly? In which case, what does Reaction Enhancers stack with really?

Please quote rules or FAQs explaining this.

[Thanee]

Generally, nothing that grants extra IP stacks.

Bye
Thanee

[FriendoftheDork]

Generally, nothing that grants extra IP stacks.

Bye
Thanee

Im talking about actual Initiative score, not IPs. I know IPs generally do not stack (barring drugs possibly?)

But what about Reaction Enhancers and Wired Reflexes?

[Dakka Dakka]

But what about Reaction Enhancers and Wired Reflexes?

Both are initiative enhancements unfortunately, but that combination actually works. The wording of the rules however makes nearly any other combination with reaction enhanceres impossible.

Wired reflexes cannot be combined with any other form of Initiative enhancement, except Reaction Enhancers.

So no reaction enhancers with Improved Reflexes or Synaptic Boosters. Only the MBW (which pobably won't need it) is compatible with reaction enhancers (IMG:style_emoticons/default/silly.gif)
Given that reaction enhancers only increase REA but still are classified as Initiative Enhancement, one has to wonder how other implants/powers that only increase REA (or by extension INT) are supposed to be treated. One could easily argue that the Suprathyroid Gland, Improved Physical Attribute or the Increase REA/INT spell should not be compatible with any stuff that grants extra IPs.

[Yerameyahu]

IMO, what they should do is declare anything that solely affects Reaction (or Int) to be 'not an Initiative enhancer', saving that status for things that specifically add IPs. But that's just 'should'. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

The question of stacking cyber, bio, drugs, and/or various magic is left as an exercise to the reader. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[StealthSigma]

IMO, what they should do is declare anything that solely affects Reaction (or Int) to be 'not an Initiative enhancer', saving that status for things that specifically add IPs. But that's just 'should'. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

The question of stacking cyber, bio, drugs, and/or various magic is left as an exercise to the reader. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

It's fairly obvious that it's meant to be describing initiative passes and not the derived initiative score. The wording is ludicrously vague and basically could be interpreted that someone with Reaction Enhancers, Wired Reflexes, or Synaptic Boosters cannot gain the benefit of a bonus to initiative from a tacnet.

[Stahlseele]

reaction enhancers are simpyl a case of bad copy and past from SR3.
reaction enhancers stack(ed) with everything and only stuff that gave +xd6 initiative did not stack.
and there was one exception to the rule, which was boosted reflexes and synaptic accellerator.

[Dakka Dakka]

It's fairly obvious that it's meant to be describing initiative passes and not the derived initiative score. The wording is ludicrously vague and basically could be interpreted that someone with Reaction Enhancers, Wired Reflexes, or Synaptic Boosters cannot gain the benefit of a bonus to initiative from a tacnet.

The problem is that the RAW actually is not vague but pretty clear. We just don't like the consequences. The rule I quoted earlier clearly states that Reaction Enhancers are a form of Initiative Enhancement. As such they do not stack with most stuff that grants extra IPs. It also tells us that something that only indirectly increases the Initiative Score is a form of Initiative Enhancement. Now either this is an extraordinary quality of Reaction Enhancers and everything else is safe, or every other implant/power/spell should be treated equally. This however is not what we expect or want.

IMO, what they should do is declare anything that solely affects Reaction (or Int) to be 'not an Initiative enhancer', saving that status for things that specifically add IPs. But that's just 'should'. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

QFT.

[Yerameyahu]

It's true, Stahl, that's where the problem comes from. But if people are going to follow the RAW (dunno why), they're stuck with that obvious error until they fix it in errata. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[X-Kalibur]

It's true, Stahl, that's where the problem comes from. But if people are going to follow the RAW (dunno why), they're stuck with that obvious error until they fix it in errata. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Wasn't it fixed in 4A? I could swear my Wired Reflexes and Synaptic Booster state they are compatible with reaction enhancers.

[StealthSigma]

Wasn't it fixed in 4A? I could swear my Wired Reflexes and Synaptic Booster state they are compatible with reaction enhancers.

I don't know. I have a PDF copy and a printed copy. The PDF copy is definitely not correct.

Reaction enhancers are incompatible with most other Initiative-boosters.
Wired reflexes cannot be combined with any other form of Initiative enhancement, except Reaction Enhancers.
The synaptic booster cannot be combined with any other form of Initiative enhancement

[Dakka Dakka]

Wasn't it fixed in 4A? I could swear my Wired Reflexes and Synaptic Booster state they are compatible with reaction enhancers.

Wired Reflexes and MBW where always compatible with Reaction Enhancers. The problem is that the rules for the aforementioned implants classify Reaction Enhancers as a form of initiave Enhancement and thus making them incompatible with anything else that increases IPs. This has not been changed yet.

[FriendoftheDork]

Alright, thanks for your responses. It seems fairly clear to me that:

Reaction Enhancers works with Wired Reflexes and MBW, but not Synaptic Boosters. It's unclear whether it stacks with Improved Reflexes spell, as that does not improve Reaction (and thus not combined).

Drugs is still a mystery. Still, I got my answer at least, even if it opened up other questions.

[StealthSigma]

Wired Reflexes and MBW where always compatible with Reaction Enhancers. The problem is that the rules for the aforementioned implants classify Reaction Enhancers as a form of initiave Enhancement and thus making them incompatible with anything else that increases IPs. This has not been changed yet.

I believe that MBW being compatible with RE is a copy/pasta typo from the description of Wired Reflexes, but that's just me.

[Stahlseele]

Right, MBW wasn't compatble with Reaction Enhancers under SR3 Rules either, but that did not matter much, because MBW was RUBBISH back then.
Nobody EVER used it. The only Level you could get it at was Level 1 for a starting character and there it was plain WORSE than BOTH WR and BR.

[X-Kalibur]

Right, MBW wasn't compatble with Reaction Enhancers under SR3 Rules either, but that did not matter much, because MBW was RUBBISH back then.
Nobody EVER used it. The only Level you could get it at was Level 1 for a starting character and there it was plain WORSE than BOTH WR and BR.

TLE-x sucks.

[Stahlseele]

THAT and the fact that it was more expensive in both essence and money than what you would need to get those numbers using other cyber and bioware . .

[Thanee]

Drugs is still a mystery. Still, I got my answer at least, even if it opened up other questions.

The only question with drugs is, whether you can use multiple doses (or multiple drugs) to stack initiative bonuses (I don't think so).

They are definitely not combatible with any of the cyberware/bioware/magic initiative boosters (since those all says that they are incompatible).

Bye
Thanee

[FriendoftheDork]

The only question with drugs is, whether you can use multiple doses (or multiple drugs) to stack initiative bonuses (I don't think so).

They are definitely not combatible with any of the cyberware/bioware/magic initiative boosters (since thos all says that they are incompatible).

Bye
Thanee

Would you mind pointing me to to sections that says this? Except of course the line about "cannot be combined with any other form of Initiative enhancement,"

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

I kind of like the idea of Drugs "redlining" your system, mainly because it has some great drawbacks, and some awesome story seeds, if you use them. *shrug*

[Yerameyahu]

I find people usually ignore/avoid the drawbacks. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/frown.gif) If they actually do require a sacrifice, that'd be cool.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

I find people usually ignore/avoid the drawbacks. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/frown.gif) If they actually do require a sacrifice, that'd be cool.

Sadly True... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/frown.gif)

[Xenefungus]

I find people usually ignore/avoid the drawbacks. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/frown.gif) If they actually do require a sacrifice, that'd be cool.

As in "each time a character uses a drug, he instantly loses 0.01 points of essence"? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Burnout here we come.

[Yerameyahu]

Honestly, something *like* that might be good. Edge test to avoid it? (Keyed to the level of addiction, the dose, etc.) Ideally the chance would be significant, but not overwhelming. There's always genetic renewal treatments, anyway. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[StealthSigma]

Honestly, something *like* that might be good. Edge test to avoid it? (Keyed to the level of addiction, the dose, etc.) Ideally the chance would be significant, but not overwhelming. There's always genetic renewal treatments, anyway. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Make the 0.01 essence a penalty and not a loss. Make it a penalty that only applies when you haven't recently taken the drug so taking the drug doesn't kill you as long as you don't actively overdose. Raise it to at least 0.05 essence (0.01 is just way too low for this). Whether you can install augmentations is based on your modified essence values (Essence Score - Drug Penalty). Reduce the penalty by 0.5 for every period of time a user goes without the drug (1 week for example).

This generates three noticeable effects.

1. Awakened characters who use drugs will find that their magical abilities are lessened when sober (temporary essence penalty will cause a hit to magic that is only erased when on the drug).
2. If you have a mundane that augments and drugs up, his free essence may not be sufficient while sober to get the augmentation installed. This means he must be administered the drug while undergoing surgery (and thus upping his essence penalty) to get the augmentation.
3. A chassis is there for addiction rather than relying on random rolls.

Just an idea, of course.