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[tete]

So Sunday I get to start a new campaign. I have 2 old timers, 2 sometimers (3e & 4e) and 2 noobs. 2e is my favorite edition but im currious abut giving 4e/2050 the old college try. I think that the matrix rules look slightly friendlier to new players, the 4e cheat sheets are awesome (again for new players), and edge > karma pool (well i had PCs with 500+ karma in the day and the KP was insane by then, caping it is not a bad thing), but it has the downsides of lack all the fun pools (combat, sorcery, etc), has overpowered mind control spells, spirits too easy to summon... For the record i dont see stat+skill or static TNs as any kind of advantage, im rather neutral on it.

So should I stick with what I know or take a chance?

[Thanee]

So should I stick with what I know or take a chance?

Take the chance. All you need is the main rulebook (and maybe the 2050 sourcebook, if you definitely want to play in that era). (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

If you don't like it, you can always switch back.

Bye
Thanee

[Bigity]

2E if you like the flavor of those rules.

4E if you like the (bland) flavor of those rules.




I'm biased.

[Medicineman]

So should I stick with what I know or take a chance?
Take a Chance with SR4A as its easier to learn for the New Players and the Sometime-Players
and You Yourself could try out something new .
If all of You don't like it, you can always go back to SR2

with a New Dance
Medicineman

[tete]

I've played SR4A (and went back to 2e) just not with the 2050 rules

[Thanee]

What turned you off then?

The game still works the same, of course.

The 2050 rules only replace the available equipment (to a very basic set of stuff, akin to SR1) and some specifics (like wired Matrix, adding in Grounding, and so on).

If you didn't like it then, chances are that you still won't like it.

Bye
Thanee

[tete]

What turned you off then?

turn offs = pt buy, qualities/flaws, skill caps, hacking merged with rigging, OS and comlink separation, unified magic.
turn ons = edge, the skill list/group skills, body 1 viability, and PACKS.
otherwise I have a meh or neutral reaction to all the other changes. I dont see them as better or worse.

[Thanee]

turn offs = pt buy

Runner's Companion has a few other methods of character generation, including Priorities and Karma.

qualities/flaws, skill caps

Well... I guess those will still be around.

hacking merged with rigging

Not sure what 2050 will do about that.

OS and comlink separation

What's wrong with that? It totally makes sense. And it isn't really that seperate, anyways, since Response limits System, so there are dependencies.

unified magic.

That is somewhat taken care of in 2050, of course, with the differences between hermetic and shamanic traditions.

Bye
Thanee

[Abstruse]

3rd Edition.

Shadowrun 2050 is a horrible product. The only part of the rules that actually work are the equipment lists. The Matrix rules look like they were written in like 5 minutes. It takes all the worst parts of the decking rules from 3rd Ed and all the worst parts of the hacking rules from 4A and smooshes them together in some gestalt that's worse than the sum of its parts. The magic rules aren't quite as bad, but still comes off as unbalanced between mages and shamen (even moreso than 3rd Ed). I don't even think there were any rigging rules in the book.

If you want to play Shadowrun 4th Edition, play 4th Edition. Just change the timeline and reskin/houserule stuff if you want to play in 2050s era instead of the 2070s. Hacking works the same as decking, only the device has to be wired. Cludge together houserules for the shaman/mage split. It'd honestly be easier than trying to make the Shadowrun 2050s rules into something playable.

[CanRay]

The Matrix rules look like they were written in like 5 minutes.

Close to a month, all told, actually. Bit over, in fact.

[Medicineman]

turn offs = pt buy...., hacking merged with rigging, unified magic.
I heard that very often from old SR2 and SR3 Players but never ( IIRC) from new Players.
Seems more like its ....an old habit. You grew up with these rules and don't want to get used to the (ImO better 'cause easier) new rules
(What is the English expression for : was der Bauer nicht kennt das frisst er nicht.... ? you can't change the habits of a lifetime ? You can't teach an old Dog new Tricks )
I think this is a good Point in Time to try out something New (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

With a new Dance
Medicineman

Thanks (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Dolanar]

Can't teach an Old Dog, New tricks

[cndblank]

SR4A is MUCH easier to learn and run.
The GM can provide all the flavor you need if he and his players have a good clean set of mechanics to work from.
And SR4 uses the same mechanics for every thing.
The straw the broke the camel's back for me with 3rd edition was the new set of mechanics they used for a Spider/Building rigger against Rigger combat for control of the building.
I love how a rigger is just a form of hacker with some specialized interface cyberware and some drone/vehicle skills.

I run a 2050 campaign using SR4A.
I do use an NPC decker and you need to jack in to get full VR.
For a new SR GM, an NPC decker really helps keep the game moving.
Nothing really important is done via wireless.
Fiber Optic is so much faster and more secure.
Especially when you have a DNL to the user's brain so you can use ICE to melt their brain if they turn out to not be authorized.

Run SR4A, use what you like out of 2050.

I did like how they treated Shaman and Hermetic summoning.

[Abstruse]

Close to a month, all told, actually. Bit over, in fact.

You needed at least a year then. The decking rules are bad. I couldn't make heads or tails out of them after a couple of readthroughs to even get a basic idea, and I'm one of maybe a half dozen people left that actually still know and understand the 3rd Ed decking rules. Should've started from scratch to make new rules or just reskinned stuff from 4A's rules. Trying to do both in that short of time made a giant incomprehensible mess. Unless I'm really just missing something with the memory thing.

[tete]

Thanks for the responses, I feel i need to clarify again.

5 of us have played SR4 or SR4A and DID NOT LIKE IT (various reasons).
2 players HAVE NOT PLAYED any SR.

The new bit is only the 2050 book, and it may have fixed some issues people had with the new shiny edition.

I'm generally leaning that direction now but I just wanted to point out that SR4 isnt new to most of us. My only reservation is teaching them SR4, then having to go back and teach them SR2 because we decided 4 isnt working for us again. 2e is also very easy for me (since i played it once a week or more durring the years it was in print), where as I dont have nearly that amount of 4e experience but I think ive played it enough to see any big issues.


* on the matrix rules - i found them pretty easy to understand but it was like reading 1e or 2e pre vr2.0 with some changes to make it work with 4e. idk how well the changes work but the rules seamed strait forward to me. BTW RAY!!!! no tortises?!? or did i miss them. I saw the desktops which i guess are more or less the same thing.

[CanRay]

Desktops (Cyberterminals) can be run in "Tortoise Mode" (Not jacked in): -4 to Initiative, and only 1 IP. SR2050, Page 156. Upper-Right Hand side.

[All4BigGuns]

Thanks for the responses, I feel i need to clarify again.

5 of us have played SR4 or SR4A and DID NOT LIKE IT (various reasons).
2 players HAVE NOT PLAYED any SR.

The new bit is only the 2050 book, and it may have fixed some issues people had with the new shiny edition.

I'm generally leaning that direction now but I just wanted to point out that SR4 isnt new to most of us. My only reservation is teaching them SR4, then having to go back and teach them SR2 because we decided 4 isnt working for us again. 2e is also very easy for me (since i played it once a week or more durring the years it was in print), where as I dont have nearly that amount of 4e experience but I think ive played it enough to see any big issues.


* on the matrix rules - i found them pretty easy to understand but it was like reading 1e or 2e pre vr2.0 with some changes to make it work with 4e. idk how well the changes work but the rules seamed strait forward to me. BTW RAY!!!! no tortises?!? or did i miss them. I saw the desktops which i guess are more or less the same thing.

If you really, REALLY don't want to give SR4/SR4A another chance, at least go to SR3 instead of SR2, and for the love of all that is Holy, please do not force your newbies into the "Choo Choo!" Priority bull-drek.

[nezumi]

turn offs = pt buy...., hacking merged with rigging, unified magic.
I heard that very often from old SR2 and SR3 Players but never ( IIRC) from new Players.
Seems more like its ....an old habit. You grew up with these rules and don't want to get used to the (ImO better 'cause easier) new rules

It could also be that new players don't know about the SR2/3 options, so can't possibly have a preference. Offering me vanilla and my not choosing chocolate doesn't mean I wouldn't prefer chocolate.

If you really, REALLY don't want to give SR4/SR4A another chance, at least go to SR3 instead of SR2, and for the love of all that is Holy, please do not force your newbies into the "Choo Choo!" Priority bull-drek.

I've never had a player complain about using priority system ... But you can use SR3's point buy (or BeCKS) with SR2 just fine.

I do recommend using SR3 mechanics in general though. It fixed a lot of niggling issues with SR2 (the high cost of metas, weird sustaining rules, the grounding exploit, etc.) Otherwise the two systems are basically identical, so you can still use your SR2 equipment lists, missions, etc.

[faultline]

turn offs = pt buy, qualities/flaws, skill caps, hacking merged with rigging, OS and comlink separation, unified magic.

I'm quite the opposite and I've played 1st-4th, 4th so far is my favorite.

• BP system, I prefer it over the priority system and I've made characters with all the character generation systems.
• Qualities/Flaws, I like these because it helps me come up with different concepts for characters.
• Skill caps, never had a problem with these before.
• Hacking merged with rigging, I think it gets rid of some complications make both run off one common system instead of two different systems, and allows for more versatility.
• OS and comlink seperation, just like computers in RL makes things a bit easier imo.
• Unified magic, see Hacking/rigging above


I have other issues with 4E, but overall a much better system than the previous.

[tete]

If you really, REALLY don't want to give SR4/SR4A another chance, at least go to SR3 instead of SR2, and for the love of all that is Holy, please do not force your newbies into the "Choo Choo!" Priority bull-drek.

Well this group HATES pt buy systems with the fury of 1000 suns. Priority or PACKS are the only way they would agree to make characters. We like templates/classes/anything where you can pick a couple things and start playing in 5 min with no math. PACKS is ideal but 2070s has already been ruled out for not having enough niche protection. Which leaves priority because with karma or pt buy they just will walk out and refuse to play.

[All4BigGuns]

Well this group HATES pt buy systems with the fury of 1000 suns. Priority or PACKS are the only way they would agree to make characters. We like templates/classes/anything where you can pick a couple things and start playing in 5 min with no math. PACKS is ideal but 2070s has already been ruled out for not having enough niche protection.

So you like creation systems that railroad you with only minimal ability to personalize the character? Remind me to stay the hell away from your group...

[kzt]

So you like creation systems that railroad you with only minimal ability to personalize the character? Remind me to stay the hell away from your group...

They probably also insist that the archetypes in the books are the ideal characters to play too. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/ohplease.gif)

[thorya]

So you like creation systems that railroad you with only minimal ability to personalize the character? Remind me to stay the hell away from your group...

That's a shame. I'm sure if you were to play with them you could teach them the "right" way to have fun. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

To the topic, stick with what you know. It doesn't sound like you'd gain anything by going 4e with your group.

[tete]

So you like creation systems that railroad you with only minimal ability to personalize the character? Remind me to stay the hell away from your group...

We like to play games, not create characters... Give them a pre-gen with crazy backgrounds and they will roleplay the hell out of it. We (myself included but not to the extreme of some) want to roleplay, not create characters. I have a job and a family I dont have time to worry about if this flaw or that one is better. If I want to play a PTSD ex solider ill just put it on my character sheet and rp it. Damn the pts who cares! I'm here to game. Not that theres anything wrong with pt fiddling, I used to do it when I had time but these days I just want to roleplay.

2e priority is in no way ideal as you still have gobs of resources to spend. We are going to give 4e/2050 the old college try i decided, mostly because i think if I stick to 2050 gear section and priority chart character creation will be tolerable and potentially we could use PACKS as the body count climbs.

[Abstruse]

I personally like Sum to 10. More flexibility and gives mundane humans a very slight advantage. Otherwise, why wouldn't you always pick ork or dwarf if playing a mundane for the attribute boosts?