Combat Spells and TN modifiers Options

[ShadowGhost]

Here's a question:

Do cover modifiers apply to combat spells, i.e. Stunbolt/Stun Ball?

I have a player who says they shouldn't, saying, "If I can see the target I can hit it with a spell and there shouldn't be any modifiers."

I disagree, saying visibility and cover modifiers apply and should be added to the TN to cast a spell.

Any opinions on this?

Thanks.

[RedmondLarry]

Yes, they apply. Last paragraph on page 181. They apply even for area-affect combat spells.

[A Clockwork Lime]

How could anyone argue that "...if I can see the target..." means that visibility and cover modifiers shouldn't apply? Am I missing something in that logic?

[RedmondLarry]

It's easy to argue that point. It's magic, and they could claim that any ability to see someone should let the combat spells through without penalty. The game designers, however, didn't make it that way. It was an deliberate choice for the game designers, and anyone who wants to argue for the other choice can easily do so.

/Edit1: It would be easy to argue that the more Armor on the subject, the harder they should be to affect with Combat Spells. And if they are completely covered, including helmet, you could argue that the couldn't be affected at all by Combat Spells. However, the game designers chose otherwise.

/Edit2: It would be easy to argue that the farther away someone is, the harder they should be to affect with Combat Spells. The game designers didn't make it that way either.

[GunnerJ]

The argument is pretty much that it's not like we're aiming something here; targets of combat spells don't get a dodge test because there's nothing to dodge, so why should cover even matter?

[Eyeless Blond]

I really don't see how, though. Visibility modifiers change the TN because you don't have as reliable or complete "link" to the target, which is just as necessary for targeting a spell as it is for targeting a bullet. You don't see anyone arguing that ranged combat shouldn't include visibility and cover modifiers because "If I can see the target I should be able to shoot at him with no mods." The point is, you *can't* see the target; that's the whole reason for the TN mods in the first place!

[Zazen]

[A Clockwork Lime]

I never stated that. I simply stated that it's possible to know more about a topic than a manual provides. In such cases, your bonus supercedes the non-penalty a manual provides.

That aside, I think you were missing my point, OurTeam. Visibility modifiers are there to reflect the fact that you have trouble seeing the target. Thus if those modifiers cause you to fail, you didn't see the target sufficiently.

[Zazen]

You ended up changing your position when I phrased it as I just did, as this fellow surely will about visibility mods. :P

The point is that we're all guilty of an occasional lapse of reason, and this one is particularly forgivable. Magic already ignores armor and range, so extending it to cover and smoke is pretty natural if you didn't pay attention to the section in SR3 that says otherwise. So lets be nice about it :)

[A Clockwork Lime]

Yeah, I changed my position all right. <just pats your head patronizingly>

[Arethusa]

Awesome. Magic's not broken enough already, so let's fuck mundanes some more while we're at it.

[Eyeless Blond]

[Zazen]

[A Clockwork Lime]

Uhm, yeah, okay. I admit when I'm wrong all the time. But whatever. Feel free to continue trolling.

Edit: Oh, and Blond, vision magnification doesn't help whatsoever in spellcasting. There are no vision modifiers for range with spells, because spells have no range categories (thus no ranges to reduce, which is all vision mag does).

This post has been edited by A Clockwork Lime: Apr 19 2004, 12:23 AM

[Kakkaraun]

[LaughingTiger]

[mfb]

theoretically true, but there are no rules for difficulty in seeing nearer or further targets.

[Eyeless Blond]

Okay then, what's the maximum visual range of an unaided human? A human with Opt[1]? Opt[2]? Opt[3]? I don't recall seeing anything like that in the books.

[A Clockwork Lime]

In ours games, I usually just use Assault Cannon ranges for spellcasting purposes. Dunno if it's an accurate protrayal or not, but it works for us.

[mfb]

i'd base it on Intelligence--make ranges a multiplier, like for thrown grenades.

[Arethusa]

Anyone have any ideas for visibility modifiers based on range, actually? Not for magic. Just for everything.

[Herald of Verjig...]

The Grimoire had optional ranges for spells (not put in any 3rd edition book yet IIRC):

150 +0
300 +2
600 +4
1250 +6
2500 +8
5000 +10
>5000 No LoS

[blakkie]

[blakkie]

BTW can you not dodge ranged attack spells like Clout that require an attack roll in addition to the casting roll? Or am i confused about how you roll those attacks?

[A Clockwork Lime]